KCFiddles - Posted - 07/19/2022:  20:01:03

This has to do with shopping, and making it easier, so that's why I put it here:

I was down in Branson MO, doing some work, hanging with some friends, and while I was working we were comparing and evaluating fiddles. Now, their way of evaluating a fiddle is to noodle around on it, and cover the full range of the strings, and give the fiddle a thorough trial in just a minute or so. The funny thing is that Most all the pro fiddlers evaluate fiddles the same way, at least to determine whether they have any further interest in a particular instrument. So, I had a dozen or so fiddles that I had brought down for various reasons, mainly to get feedback or opinions from people who perform on fiddles every day, are my friends and will give me a straight up, honest opinion. (Funny thing is, even though they have different styles and sounds, their opinions and rankings were very very close, on instruments that were priced everywhere from $800 to five figures plus.



So I said, "What would happen if I had you guys record demo videos the same way you evaluate fiddles for yourselves? I wonder if that would help potential buyers? You guys are first and foremost entertainers and perfomers, and you swing, no matter what you play. They liked the idea, so I quickly set up a camera and my phone, and recorded them just to test the idea. The whole thing was very spontaneous, since Nathan had a show that evening, and Mark had a rehearsal. We recorded 12-13 instrument in about 15 minutes. I posted the recording from the video camera to You Tube, with no edits whatsoever. I see some adjustments to be made in setup and mic placement to make it easier to differentiate among fiddles, but these were all judged "solid" fiddles to begin with, or else I wouldn't have brought them down in the first place.



What I would like feedback on: If I cut these into 1-minute or 90-second demos, and supply pro quality photos, do they give you enough information to judge whether you want to bring a given fiddle in to evaluate personally, on approval? Does the fact that these guys swing help sell the fiddle? I could have Nathan and Mark and maybe another great fiddler do the same kind of demo, one who specializes in another style who may be interested and pulls other sounds out to listen to. I've also got a couple of Irish fiddlers in KC who are willing to do demos, as well as a couple of pretty good classical violinists when called for.



I'll be watching avidly for any feedback. May turn out to be a bad idea, but having the guys play what a fiddle suggests to them seemed like a good idea at the time, and I just went with it to see what other ideas might follow. I have heard good fiddlers mention time and again that a particular fiddle "talks" to them, and I've felt it myself, so why not go with it?



If this doesn't go anywhere, what might work better, instead?

Edited by - KCFiddles on 07/19/2022 20:02:33

DougBrock - Posted - 07/20/2022:  06:46:24

Interesting, especially to see/hear the various violins all in the same video. I liked having them all one after another. And all of them seemed like nice violins.



Unfortunately, I’m new enough with fiddles that I find it hard to really get a good feel for a violin through a video. I like to see a violin up close, see the fit and finish, the look of the wood (front, back, sides, scroll, fingerboard), and hear the violin while under my chin. Obviously you don’t get all that through videos. Hmmm, I wonder if some well-lit, well-shot closeup videos in tandem with the playing might help provide some of that info for a customer?



I sympathize with your needing to reach customers who aren’t in your shop! Good luck!

Edited by - DougBrock on 07/20/2022 06:51:08

RichJ - Posted - 07/20/2022:  07:35:53

This was very interesting to watch and hear. But, it only validates my long held opinion that fiddles are like people - every one different each with a unique sound. Of course sound/tone/voice/whatever heard by the person actually playing the fiddle is gonna' be different from that heard by someone listening to the fiddler play. To make things even harder, I also think a fiddle will sounds different when played by different fiddlers. So trying to pick one out like this would really be tough for someone like me.

All that said I do think holding and playing a fiddle might result in some kind of mystical bonding that could result in someone wanting to own it.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/20/2022:  10:06:00

I appreciate the replies, so far. Nobody can tell for sure without actually trying the fiddle out themselves. The purpose of a demo video is to show what a fiddle can do in the hands of a good player. This video was taken in one continuous take, and just shows what the guys do when they are checking out a new, unfamiliar fiddle, not what they do to make it sound its best. I thought I might have Nathan and Mark and maybe Wayne do demos of fiddles and combine a cut of each player into a demo video of each fiddle that I put up for sale on line. That way a potential buyer could hear the fiddle played by different hands.

I can do some things with mic alignment and camera placement to get a little more definition in the sound to give more differentiation among the fiddles. They are all solid instruments, but have different string selection and setup, and prices from $800 to $8000 - 10,000.

The purpose of a demo video is for a potential buyer to compare instruments, to decide which ones they want to bring out to try in person on approval. So does this sort of trial suffice, or does the old "Scale, slow tune, fast tune" work better. When I try a fiddle out, I do more or less what they do, and I can tell what a fiddle has to offer in about a minute, or at least rank it among others when doing comparisons.

So what more, or what different would a buyer want in order to decide what they want to try out in person? I'll listen and consider any suggestions gratefully.

DougD - Posted - 07/20/2022:  10:42:42

I watched about 10 minutes of it, enough to get the idea I think. To me it illustrated what I've long thought - that the player is more important than the instrument (within reason). I was always amazed when I picked up a newly restored instrument at my luthier's (a pretty good player too) how much better it sounded in his hands than mine. I just preferred Mark's playing (the fellow in the striped jersey?) to Nathan's - I thought he pulled a sweeter tone, and I liked the little things he chose to play. So maybe for comparison it would be better to have the same person do the demos.
Of course this video is overkill, but it seems demos like this could be useful. I'd suggest a tighter shot to see the instrument better and eliminate visual distractions, and of course the best audio you can easily get.
This is maybe for a different market, but I think this is a pretty good demo of a violin: youtu.be/HBfkIKzaO0o Nice that you can see the photos while you listen. I hapoen to own an instrument by this maker, which is how I came across this video, but I don't think mine is worth as much as that one, which was listed at the high end of what was in your video.
Nice fiddles!

Edited by - DougD on 07/20/2022 10:44:55

jealbe49 - Posted - 07/20/2022:  11:20:14

Valid points so far. One thing to keep in mind, if you’re looking for a new fiddle and you don’t live close enough to a shop to go play several in person, having videos gives you an idea what the fiddle can sound like and help narrow down to one you would like to try on approval. That said, you will never know how a fiddle speaks to you until you actually hold and play it in your environment. Dealing with someone like Michael who is reputable, experienced with setups and will send you one on approval is a safe way to shop. Having a fiddle for a few days let’s you get to know it and it’s always good to record it and or have someone else play it to hear it across the room.

Edited by - jealbe49 on 07/20/2022 11:24:42

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/20/2022:  12:36:03

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

I watched about 10 minutes of it, enough to get the idea I think. To me it illustrated what I've long thought - that the player is more important than the instrument (within reason). I was always amazed when I picked up a newly restored instrument at my luthier's (a pretty good player too) how much better it sounded in his hands than mine. I just preferred Mark's playing (the fellow in the striped jersey?) to Nathan's - I thought he pulled a sweeter tone, and I liked the little things he chose to play. So maybe for comparison it would be better to have the same person do the demos.

Of course this video is overkill, but it seems demos like this could be useful. I'd suggest a tighter shot to see the instrument better and eliminate visual distractions, and of course the best audio you can easily get.

This is maybe for a different market, but I think this is a pretty good demo of a violin: youtu.be/HBfkIKzaO0o Nice that you can see the photos while you listen. I hapoen to own an instrument by this maker, which is how I came across this video, but I don't think mine is worth as much as that one, which was listed at the high end of what was in your video.

Nice fiddles!

---

OK, well, this is the way I have been doing demos until now: They are 2-3 minutes long, and use a local player who plays classical and jazz, and has won a few fiddle contests as well.  This Southwind 150312 was ranked high by all 3 people who played it Monday, but didn't sell when I offered it on this forum a while back, an absolute bargain at $800, which makes me wonder whether I need to change my presentation. In the meantime, I'm having no problem selling higher priced fiddles. This next one is an Albin Paulus Classical in the same price range as the Seidel.  Then Albin Paulus Fiddle.  My goal is to have my demos sound like the violin does when you are standing next to it, and these do. The Paulus is set up for a fiddle sound; I just asked Pat to play some classical material on it. It's very much on a par with the Seidel.

I guess the question I am asking is about format: Would you rather have the fiddles demonstrated the way pros evaluate a fiddle, with equivalent audio and "framing" to the old demos, or would you rather stick with the "scale, waltz, hoedown" format? 

Edited by - KCFiddles on 07/20/2022 12:52:04

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/20/2022:  12:45:33

BTW, Doug, you're indeed right; the player makes SO much difference. I keep going back to seeing Tommy Jarrell try out a Strad. That instrument was in no way suited to him, nor him to the fiddle. I have to always keep in mind that it's my job to match up instrument and player, and sometimes it can be a little troubling when I think I have an instrument that everything I've experienced, and everyone I know tells me is "the answer", and nobody else seems to see what I see in it, at least at a given time.

buckhenry - Posted - 07/20/2022:  18:07:59

I was impressed with the tone Nathan got from 150312 especially on the double stopped low strings, but didn't hear the same on the Southwind Demo. That would be interesting to hear many players from different genre demo the same instrument.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/20/2022:  20:26:19

Nathan has a very soulful sound and gets great moans and growls out of a fiddle. He's been my friend for about 10 years, and I think he has a great bow hand and really good ears. Band leader and great sound guy. Mark plays country fiddle every day at Presley's. I haven't known him all that long, but we hit it off really well, and I like his playing a lot. He's got a great country sound and wonderful skills. Pat is largely a classical player who also fiddles and plays jazz, but plays on the beat and has a hard time losing that classical "accent" so doesn't show off the bright/ dark contrasts that fiddlers really go for. Maybe I can show him these videos. I know he's got the skills if I can show him what I want. Wayne, maybe the most entertaining of them all, fiddler of the year in Branson the last 12 years in a row, had a matinee show while we were recording, and he's volunteered to play demos for me. Great guy, plays Texas swing when he has his druthers, and has been having a good time lately doing recording sessions with Junior Brown on an album for one of his sons.

So I have talent available, including founding members of the only American Irish trad band to have commercial success in Ireland. Plus, I have great fiddles. I just need to decide who to match with which fiddles, and what format to use to demonstrate them. One player? two? three? Show how a pro evaluates, or play scale and tune excerpts? The more margin I have in a fiddle, the more I can spend to sell it; it takes time and money to produce even a low-budget demo, but if it's not effective, it's time an money wasted.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 07/21/2022:  15:04:56

Ok ..... Insofar as what would work for me. Hearing an A and B part tune in 4x4 and 3x4 time, some single note and double stop scales and a swing or jazz melody. I do think if the instrument may appeal to a classical audience, then an appropriate melody should be used. Having more than one person play an instrument ... IDK if that does or does not help. The instrument will have subtle differences, of course, but what specifically will that tell an interested party. I understand that you run a small business and needs must keep an eye on the bottom line. It is obvious that you enjoy / love what you do. I appreciate your posts M.R. R/

gapbob - Posted - 07/21/2022:  20:54:55

I go through this with my multiple fiddles, because I pick one up, take 30 seconds to get used to it, and then after that I think wow this isn’t so bad and then I like it more.



I find that fiddles that I play tend to sound somewhat similar when I record them from a distance, but how they respond under my ear is more important—also the responsiveness and power is quite important.



I liked the 1909 fiddle, the others didn’t grab me, for whatever reason, but I did not listen intently much after that one.

Edited by - gapbob on 07/21/2022 20:55:45

RichJ - Posted - 07/22/2022:  05:25:40

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I was impressed with the tone Nathan got from 150312 especially on the double stopped low strings, but didn't hear the same on the Southwind Demo. That would be interesting to hear many players from different genre demo the same instrument.

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Interesting comment which makes me wonder how what high end performers can get out of a fiddle has anything to do with what potential buyers of varying skill level might do with the same instrument.

RobBob - Posted - 07/22/2022:  07:05:32

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

I watched about 10 minutes of it, enough to get the idea I think. To me it illustrated what I've long thought - that the player is more important than the instrument (within reason).

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Hence the poem, The Touch of The Master's Hand

The Touch of the Master's Hand

gapbob - Posted - 07/22/2022:  08:14:19

I would suggest that you have the same player play the same tunes on each instrument. Since any good player can make any fiddle sound good on slow tunes, such as the Ashokan farewell, those don't help much in terms of evaluating the fiddle, and i would avoid them.



I have a tune that I play that goes from the lowest string up to the highest string on third position, the "beauties of the ballroom," and I play that every time that I want to evaluate an instrument, so I would suggest finding a tune of similar style. Then I would suggest a tune showing double stops, then do scales in multple keys, including tunes in Bb and going up to B, for bluegrass players. Then scales in double stops of some sort to show that.

 Since bows make a big part of the sound, I would use the same bow, of course it should be good.  

 You mentioned that you have access to Irish players— it would probably be a good idea to do the same sort of thing on each violin with a player in each major genre that you are going to direct the instruments towards, bluegrass, irish, old-time, etc, since each type has different sounds that are sought.

ps.  I thought i heard a rattle (fine tuner perhaps?) on the third fiddle.

Edited by - gapbob on 07/22/2022 08:22:20

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/22/2022:  16:33:00

For me, IMO these tests can be tough to do and evaluate. The video aspect probably doesn't provide any use information. 

I have had opportunity to hear instruments I've seen in videos, to then hear live in person (esp acoustic guitars). Can be quite a difference... sometimes surprisingly more than might expect. Have to take into account part of the sound the viewer/listener is hearing is the recording chain/process. Obviously the mic, and placement... all way to then what the listener is listening on. 

-----

Side note, have to question some of those old recordings, that might have sounded a bit thin or scratchy... really capture what people experienced live? Seems like many weren't given the optimal recording engineering (esp compared to today)?

buckhenry - Posted - 07/22/2022:  16:51:24

what high end performers can get out of a fiddle

They have acquired the skill to draw out the fullest tone the instrument is capable of, and the skill to make the instrument resonate.

That's why I suggested many players demonstrating the same instrument, because each are highly developed  in various techniques.

To a buyer with lesser skill level this would give something to aspire to, for the buyer with high skill level to hear the potential of the instrument.

This is why I made the distinction between the two demos of the same instrument. 

The instrument must be well played before an  assessment can be made of it's quality. 

It's all very well to see how performers assess new instruments but if they are not playing exactly the same excerpts on each instrument then it's difficult for the buyer to distinguish them. 

RobBob - Posted - 07/22/2022:  18:32:16

I liked 150312. Sounds good to me.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/22/2022:  19:07:18

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. You have addressed and observed a lot of the points that drive me a little bit more nuts than I already am. First off, all fiddles are different, and all players are different, obviously, so when comparing it seems it would be good to keep things apples to apples, right? Reduce variables...

Second, potential customers have different skill levels, styles and personalities. Skilled players are gonna be looking for something that suits their playing style, so maybe it would pay to put in the extra time and cost to do a little more broadly-based demo or set of demos like I did on the Albins. Less skilled players are gonna be influenced by fiddles that sound like what they wanna be, but are bound to be disappointed when they don't instantly sound like Kenny Baker, even though the fiddle has it in it. So that's a consideration. But the top players don't always buy the most expensive instruments. The definite favorite instrument of all the 3 pro players that evaluated fiddles that Monday was the "unknown Mittenwald fiddle" with a LOT of varnish damage, perfunctory setup and a long un-repaired crack in the top that I had just brought down to decide how much more work I am going to put into it. (smh).

I've done comparisons and played my formal, close-miced demo videos for the guys who first recorded them, and they confirm that they are about as close a match as one can reasonably expect to what they sound like under the ear, but could still be improved. The test video audio was pretty bad, but the dozens of individual demo videos i have on line are pretty good. So, my biggest concern is with content and format. I'm paying close attention to everybody's comments so far, and would welcome any further ideas anyone might care to contribute.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/22/2022:  19:13:04

quote:

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Originally posted by RobBob

I liked 150312. Sounds good to me.

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All the pros who have played it said that it would work fine for an every day working (stage) fiddle, but Monday in person all 3  liked the band new James River, the second fiddle in the vid, better. But that's not a great comparison. There are 3 videos if 150312 and only 1 of the James River, but the JR is just as good on top and has a better bottom. Both good, solid fiddles. Underpriced. Good illustration of the difficulties, here.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/22/2022:  19:17:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

For me, IMO these tests can be tough to do and evaluate. The video aspect probably doesn't provide any use information. 

I have had opportunity to hear instruments I've seen in videos, to then hear live in person (esp acoustic guitars). Can be quite a difference... sometimes surprisingly more than might expect. Have to take into account part of the sound the viewer/listener is hearing is the recording chain/process. Obviously the mic, and placement... all way to then what the listener is listening on. 

-----

Side note, have to question some of those old recordings, that might have sounded a bit thin or scratchy... really capture what people experienced live? Seems like many weren't given the optimal recording engineering (esp compared to today)?

---

That's why I try very hard on my formal demo videos to have  the performer listen and verify that the recording sounds the same to him, and I also compare personally. It's mostly a matter of getting the setup right and consistent, but I can pull a decent tone and double-check for myself.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/22/2022:  19:32:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by gapbob

I would suggest that you have the same player play the same tunes on each instrument. Since any good player can make any fiddle sound good on slow tunes, such as the Ashokan farewell, those don't help much in terms of evaluating the fiddle, and i would avoid them.



I have a tune that I play that goes from the lowest string up to the highest string on third position, the "beauties of the ballroom," and I play that every time that I want to evaluate an instrument, so I would suggest finding a tune of similar style. Then I would suggest a tune showing double stops, then do scales in multple keys, including tunes in Bb and going up to B, for bluegrass players. Then scales in double stops of some sort to show that.

 Since bows make a big part of the sound, I would use the same bow, of course it should be good.  

 You mentioned that you have access to Irish players— it would probably be a good idea to do the same sort of thing on each violin with a player in each major genre that you are going to direct the instruments towards, bluegrass, irish, old-time, etc, since each type has different sounds that are sought.

 

ps.  I thought i heard a rattle (fine tuner perhaps?) on the third fiddle.

 

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DougD - Posted - 07/25/2022:  15:15:33

alaskafiddler - I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to in the last part of your post, but since Michael mentioned Tommy Jarrell - I think Tommy had very specific ideas about music and how he wanted to sound, and used equipment and techniques deliberately to achieve that sound. Sometimes I think his playing is described as "rough" or "scratchy" by people who never heard him in person - just on videos with not always the best sound (or maybe not at all - just passing on received "wisdom").
Here's a recording I made in 1980 with a good microphone of Tommy playing at his house. I wouldn't call it "sweet," but it might not be quite the sound you'd expect: youtu.be/Egyg5HWFrjE
As you can tell by the laughter at the beginning we were having a good time.

Edited by - DougD on 07/25/2022 15:17:58