WyoBob - Posted - 03/29/2022:  16:09:05

I'm such a newbie, I'm not sure how to title the subject.

I'm learning old time tunes on my own.  No teacher.  I just use the many great resources on this forum and other internet resources.

I've played old time banjo for 10 years and know 70 pus tunes, up to speed.   I'm spending my time learning the tunes I know on the banjo on the fiddle, by ear.   I don't know that I'll ever be able to play the fiddle with my outstanding old time group.  I can play up to speed with them on my banjo even on tunes I don't know.  But, I'm really happy to just play my fiddle along with the music I've recorded of the group, by myself, in the basement.  I'd be happy to continue playing fiddle by myself for the duration but, in case I get good enough to "play with the experts", I have a question or two.

An example is the tune "Barlow Knife".  I learned this tune by ear on the fiddle, listening to our groups playing but I learned it in a lower octave on the G and D strings.   It's easy to play on the fiddle down there.  I started with trying to learn it on the higher strings.  This isn't as easy but, it's a fun thing to do even though more complicated.   I've done the same thing with "Big Sciota" and "Fly Away my Pretty Little Miss".   I learned both tunes on the fiddle in the lower octave.  I would guess, because of my banjo playing experience and because I prefer the more "mellow" tone of the lower octave.    Will this "affliction" hamper me in playing in old time groups should I ever gather the courage to play with them?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/29/2022:  16:14:22

It’s good to be able to play in both octaves so you can play in unison, but it’s not usually a problem to stick to the lower registers, so long as you’re together with the other players.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2022:  17:30:59

quote:

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Originally posted by WyoBob

.....I prefer the more "mellow" tone of the lower octave.    Will this "affliction" hamper me in playing in old time groups should I ever gather the courage to play with them?

 

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First off it depends on the others you are playing with; and in what capacity.

As banjo player, an similar question/advice would be playing a cello banjo (that you like the lower mellower tone. 

For most part I would say, the register you play makes a difference to the overall sound (for most people). There is a reason don't often see cellos, octave violins or even violas as a lead. 

Tunes as normally played already work out well and have created certain expectations. Some tunes are sometimes played oct low for section of dynamic variation, to contrast normal high. Of course some are not really playable in a lower octave.  As part of a stringband sound, the fiddle as a lead instrument... often needs to be in the treble register to stand out as the main lead line... above the guitars and banjo.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/29/2022 17:34:56

WyoBob - Posted - 03/29/2022:  18:03:44

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

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Originally posted by WyoBob

.....I prefer the more "mellow" tone of the lower octave.    Will this "affliction" hamper me in playing in old time groups should I ever gather the courage to play with them?

 

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First off it depends on the others you are playing with; and in what capacity.

As banjo player, an similar question/advice would be playing a cello banjo (that you like the lower mellower tone. 

For most part I would say, the register you play makes a difference to the overall sound (for most people). There is a reason don't often see cellos, octave violins or even violas as a lead. 

Tunes as normally played already work out well and have created certain expectations. Some tunes are sometimes played oct low for section of dynamic variation, to contrast normal high. Of course some are not really playable in a lower octave.  As part of a stringband sound, the fiddle as a lead instrument... often needs to be in the treble register to stand out as the main lead line... above the guitars and banjo.

 

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I don't see myself ever being a fiddle lead.  Heck, I'm dang near 75 years old, wear a hearing aids and have only been playing the fiddle for 2 1/2 years.  I don't' see myself being in a string band while playing the fiddle for that matter. When playing with my old time group, I rely on hearing the fiddle when I'm playing with my banjo to get "in sync.   In second place would be keying in on one of our outstanding banjo players.   A guitar doesn't seem to work very well for me as far as getting up to speed, especially with a tune that I don't know.

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 03/29/2022:  18:20:48

Hi, Bob,
In my experience most old time tunes are traditionally played in a key that spreads the A and B part around the fiddle first position. Keys of D or A. If somebody called Arkansas Traveler in C, you would 'bottom out' in standard tuning. If they called it in G, I think you would have to shift up, which most don't care to do.

If there's wiggle room, I like lower octave--but I play mostly country-grass. ie, we put Jambalaya (key of C) in a set. I think that sounds better down-low like shuffling Cajun dancing. Going up, it sounds more piercing, like bluegrass-- 'listen to me, son!'

So, I think it depends on the genre, and what you like to hear...

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2022:  18:35:15

The mention of Cajun... points out perhaps good example.

The actual melody is played up mostly on the A and E strings. The lower octave is generally seconding... either chords with shuffling rhythm... or sometimes tracing the simple melody line. Some of those tunes in a group setting, don't sound as much like melodies when played low... they sound like seconding. Up high they just stand out as the melody.

To WyoBob; there is nothing wrong with seconding, even in OT; I think it can sound great... I was just pointing out that if you are the only fiddle, or trying to lead the tune... to others it might not seem like as if you are playing or carrying the normal main melody. (which might be the expectation?)

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/29/2022 18:36:16

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/29/2022:  18:36:28

There seem to be a lot of Old Time fiddlers out there who prefer mellow sounding keys or tunings on their fiddles. I think it's a great thing to feel the freedom to choose your pitch, tuning, or however you wanna play any tune. However...if you do plan to get out there with Old Time jamming folks, you probably also would wanna be able to play the tunes as jammers normally play them. Apparently some people are lucky enough to find another person or two who enjoys "fiddling" with the pitch or tuning and would be open to doing that with the fiddler...but...that takes some luck, I guess. I'd play 'em how I want to but be prepared to be able to play 'em like most people do if you plan to get out and join some others.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2022:  19:01:29

I like lowered tunes (I started more as a bass player). When I started playing more lead instrument... they often sounded to bright and harsh to my bass ears.

But one thing related to this a curiosity I observed, is some folks are very sensitive to pitch register range; esp if familiar. A few steps this way or that not big deal. Some might have to do with octave affects the timbre as well? I've known a few fiddlers that struggle to recognize the melody on a cello or bass or even banjo or guitar. (sometimes vocals if much different register); but have no problem once hear a normal fiddle play it. (some people have very exact pitch memory, and struggle if tuned down a half step, or capoed different than they learned or on recording). Just thought it interesting.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/29/2022:  19:44:47

I'm going to say this: learn them in both octaves. It's only going to help you improve as a fiddler.
Are you cross tuning? It's the same low and high. But if you hear the melody being played an octave up from where you are playing, that's likely "how it goes." As George said, often the tune will get played in the lower octave to add variety to the ensemble sound.
Not all tunes work in both octaves because they encompass more notes than the fiddle allows to be played lower.

Fiddler - Posted - 03/30/2022:  07:21:12

Learn both registers. If you are the only lead instrument, changing registers adds a bit more interest to the tune. When I am playing for a dance, changing registers gives the feel of changing tunes and injects new energy. If I am playing alone, changing registers allows me to focus on noting and intonation in those regions.

As George mentioned, changing registers adds variety to the overall sound. As he also indicated, changing registers will sometimes require getting out of first position. This is ok. I know lots of folks, including me, who use this as a method to learn the other positions. (I HATE playing scales!! Childhood piano trauma.) For me, this has made that great abyss further up the fretboard less intimidating!

doryman - Posted - 03/30/2022:  09:12:55

Hi Bob. Maybe you already know this, but here's something to try to get yourself playing in the upper octaves. Instead of focusing on learning the songs note for note, practice the pentatonic scale for the keys of D and G...and start on the D string for both keys and go up from there. Then practice just playing along to the music you've recorded using the pentatonic scale. It's like magic and you almost can't go wrong. That gets you up there and used to playing up there and everything else will follow.

Funny, I have the exact opposite problem, I sound terrible on the lower octaves! Any advice for me?

WyoBob - Posted - 03/30/2022:  15:09:03

quote:

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Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

Hi, Bob,

In my experience most old time tunes are traditionally played in a key that spreads the A and B part around the fiddle first position. Keys of D or A. If somebody called Arkansas Traveler in C, you would 'bottom out' in standard tuning. If they called it in G, I think you would have to shift up, which most don't care to do.



If there's wiggle room, I like lower octave--but I play mostly country-grass. ie, we put Jambalaya (key of C) in a set. I think that sounds better down-low like shuffling Cajun dancing. Going up, it sounds more piercing, like bluegrass-- 'listen to me, son!'



So, I think it depends on the genre, and what you like to hear...

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If someone called out Arkansas Traveler in our group (with me playing my banjo in C), I'd be fine.  If I were ever to get to the point where I'm playing the fiddle with them (which seems a very remote possibility), and they called Arkansas Traveler in C, I'd just sit there and watch them.   But, I have great fun just watching the fiddlers in our group.  That's why I bought my first fiddle.

WyoBob - Posted - 03/30/2022:  15:49:21

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

There seem to be a lot of Old Time fiddlers out there who prefer mellow sounding keys or tunings on their fiddles. I think it's a great thing to feel the freedom to choose your pitch, tuning, or however you wanna play any tune. However...if you do plan to get out there with Old Time jamming folks, you probably also would wanna be able to play the tunes as jammers normally play them. Apparently some people are lucky enough to find another person or two who enjoys "fiddling" with the pitch or tuning and would be open to doing that with the fiddler...but...that takes some luck, I guess. I'd play 'em how I want to but be prepared to be able to play 'em like most people do if you plan to get out and join some others.

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Peggy, perhaps you and I have an advantage in not playing with others.  We can play to suit ourselves.  When I bought my first banjo 10 years ago, I didn't know about jam groups.  I just intended to please myself, have fun (and perhaps instill an interest in music for my grandson's)  Now, when I get to play with some outstanding O.T. musicians, I'm pretty tickled but, if I had to go back to playing by myself, that would be OK.  And, that's where I am with fiddle playing.   I enjoy playing my fiddle every day, by myself, along with recordings.   (And, I might add, I had a blast singing along with your latest contribution, "Down to the River to Pray").   Of course, I did this well away from my "Peggy", down in the basement.  I really enjoyed your playing and singing of that song.  And, no glass or other valuables were destroyed by my singing (which amazed me).

WyoBob - Posted - 03/30/2022:  16:13:33

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

I'm going to say this: learn them in both octaves. It's only going to help you improve as a fiddler.

Are you cross tuning? It's the same low and high. But if you hear the melody being played an octave up from where you are playing, that's likely "how it goes." As George said, often the tune will get played in the lower octave to add variety to the ensemble sound.

Not all tunes work in both octaves because they encompass more notes than the fiddle allows to be played lower.

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I do play a lot in AEae and play the "D" tunes that work well in that tuning, as well.   I really enjoy that.  I'm also on a "quest" to play other tunes, high and low and it's been lots of fun.  I found that, playing tunes I know well on the banjo really helps with playing high and low octaves on the fiddle.   My goal right now is to keep learning how to do this and I'm having a blast.   Playing scales has helped me "know" the finger board better every day and I hope one day to be able to play my fiddle, automatically, without thinking about it as I do when I play the many tunes our old time group knows (but I don't) on my banjo.   When I realized that I was playing my banjo along with the group on tunes I didn't know, it was a mind blowing experience. My fingers just automatically went to where they were supposed to be.  When our group plays, we stay in the same tuning for the two hours we play.   I played in 2-3 sessions where I knew four or five of the tunes.   One reason I started recording our sessions was to make sure I wasn't "messing things up" and I wasn't.  Wow, that was an amazing experience for me!

How I wish I would have started playing old time music on the banjo and fiddle years ago.  But, that was never on my radar. But, it is, now.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 03/30/2022:  16:21:21

When I'm jamming next to a banjo player and the tune we are playing lends itself to me going an octave lower on the fiddle, that puts me and the banjo player in the same place..and that always makes the banjo's sound really come alive and it give a little attention to banjo players.. I Love dropping down an octave.