ChickenMan - Posted - 09/12/2021:  07:09:52

Like everything fiddle, the key of C isn't going to be instantly easy Peggy, especially if you've not practiced it enough. 

Rather than struggle through recording, why not woodshed a little and get comfortable with it first?  

Brian Wood - Posted - 09/12/2021:  09:21:36

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I gotta say...not being a jam participant at this time...just soloing it as back porch specialist...lol...the other day I struggled through the key of C, standard, and recorded and put up a youtube of Maysville.

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Can you possibly post it here, Peggy? I'm locked out of youtube for some reason. I am learning Maysville too, because you brought it up here actually. The key is no problem but I'm taking a while to get the timing without looking at my sheet music.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/12/2021:  10:36:24

It's really tough to get...I will post it here...except I took my standard C tuning off of youtube...I just now took a few quick mintues to try to use the same backup track I'd made in C for standard on the fiddle, but using my viola tuned Calico...CGCE...I guess it would be...to play calico but in C with the backup track. That turned out really nice, but I made a lot of mistakes and realized I had made timing mistakes on my previous backup track anyway.

So I plan to do this all over again...I plan to make a better one in C standard and compare it with calico, but using the fiddle...probably GDGB? whatever calico notes would be in G on fiddle...I'm beginning to believe this tune was orignally done Calico tuning and then the next generation of old timers went to standard and put it in C to get the drones/unison notes...Not sure if that makes sense...I could post both on here...just the mp3s...to prove my point...the timing is bad and mistakes galore on both...but maybe I'll try really quick to get the mp3s on FHO to just illustrate my point.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/12/2021:  10:58:02

Ok well I'm in an awful hurry here, but for the sake of what I'm talking about...I've got some lousy mp3s to share...I try to put better stuff than this on my youtube channel, if at all possible...but to continue with the discussion I did put two mp3s up...one with viola doing calico in C, so I wouldn't have to make another backup track to try it for fiddle in calico...and one standard tuning C with the same backup track for fiddle. Hope it all makes sense...I'm late and gotta run!

Brian Wood - Posted - 09/12/2021:  11:19:12

I appreciate the effort, those are good. I'm pretty lost out of standard tuning although alternate tunings can be a beautiful thing. I know I never post anything, because I never record myself. But it's a cool tune and nice to know you're working on it too. Anyone interested here's my transcription, subject to revision: Maysville

PS Chords and ending melody note vary. I think your version is the truest, but I have taken my major chord version from John Hartford (while indicating the other chords in parenthesis).

Edited by - Brian Wood on 09/12/2021 11:22:04

DougD - Posted - 09/12/2021:  11:27:04

Brian, have you ever heard JP Fraley's versiin of "Maysville?" Its avaiable at Slippery Hill: slippery-hill.com/content/maysville
Key of C, standard tuning. I don't really know but I suspect thats the version many players of my generation learned.

Brian Wood - Posted - 09/12/2021:  11:52:58

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Originally posted by DougD

Brian, have you ever heard JP Fraley's versiin of "Maysville?" Its avaiable at Slippery Hill: slippery-hill.com/content/maysville

Key of C, standard tuning. I don't really know but I suspect thats the version many players of my generation learned.

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Yes, I did listen to it and I think it has the minor chords I mentioned. I'll go back and listen again, and listen for other variations from what I have. I have trouble deciding sometimes what version of a tune I should transcribe, the one I know best or an earlier more essential version. JP Fraley's sense of time is intriguing. I run like a clock and have to train myself to play crooked tunes, but I love many of them. Another of his I like is Winds Of Shilo.

RichJ - Posted - 09/12/2021:  11:55:57

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Ok well I'm in an awful hurry here, but for the sake of what I'm talking about...I've got some lousy mp3s to share...

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Awww common' Peggy, you're much too hard on yourself. These are both good. But, I do hear what you're saying about the Calico version and I thing I prefer that one just a tiny bit more. Like a few other folks  have mentioned, I'm also trying ot learn this one too, actually from that JP Fraley vesion.  I somehow find thid tune a bit tougher than most and I think it may be due to that tricky, non-uniform timing the way JP plays it. To my year, and even with tjat great shuffle pf yours, you seem to have evened the timing out and made the tune more uniform.  This just may make a difference in my learning to play it. Anyhow, great job as usual. 

 

RichJ - Posted - 09/12/2021:  12:09:34

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

...but wondering if the older generation of fiddlers who brought us these tunes just got tired of tuning like their ancestors did and figured it all up in standard...maybe? I don't know...

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There's a story around that goes something like this. In the early days of his career JP Fraley occasionally performed and played tunes in cross. By the end of his career he played exclusively in standard. The story goes on to say JP once lost a fiddle contest because the judges thought he was playing in cross. Apparently this was a contest no-no. After that, and before every contest he entered, he dragged his bow across the string before starting a tune to prove to the judges he was tuned in standard. Not sure if this has any bearing on your suggestion, but maybe JP was one of these people who learned most of his tunes in cross then re-learned them in standard.   

DougD - Posted - 09/12/2021:  12:31:10

I see there are several transcriptions of "Maysville" at the Traditional Tune Archive: tunearch.org/wiki/Maysville

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/12/2021:  14:55:44

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Originally posted by farmerjones

If you want hostile vibes, start tuning a guitar in different tunings. But I think it's another "don't knock it, until you try it" deal.

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That's interesting, in Irish sessions most guitarists (Edit: Around here),tune DADGAD , or maybe just drop D tuning for a half way sort of sound, somewhere between modal and Major/minor sound. Straight tuning a guitar in an Irish session sounds a bit more mid Atlantic, Rodney Miller, Portland collection, sort of thing.....Which is nice..

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 09/12/2021 14:58:26

Brian Wood - Posted - 09/12/2021:  14:57:12

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Originally posted by DougD

I see there are several transcriptions of "Maysville" at the Traditional Tune Archive: tunearch.org/wiki/Maysville

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Thanks. From one transcription on that page by Hartford:

Notes: Transcribed by John Hartford from J.P. Fraley's which would have mede a minor, but I just don't hear it that way."

playing Regarding the last note, Hartford wrote: "J.P. went to 'A'

sbhikes2 - Posted - 09/13/2021:  06:14:22

C is just like G one string over, those kinds of G tunes that end on the G on the D string. Once I figured that out the brain block in my head broke and it got a bit easier.

When I say fiddlers aren't being honest I'm not saying anything nefarious or sinister about them. I'm just saying they like to say there's a banjo here so we "have to" or "can't"... when really it's just because they don't want to retune their own instruments any more than banjos want to retune theirs. They should just be honest or if there's a better word for it, maybe truthful? Truthful and polite? They should just tell newbies that we stay in one key because banjos retune for all the keys and fiddles retune for some of the keys and it's just too much trouble to wait for retuning over and over again.

RichJ - Posted - 09/13/2021:  07:31:11

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

C is just like G one string over, those kinds of G tunes that end on the G on the D string. Once I figured that out the brain block in my head broke and it got a bit easier.



When I say fiddlers aren't being honest I'm not saying anything nefarious or sinister about them. I'm just saying they like to say there's a banjo here so we "have to" or "can't"... when really it's just because they don't want to retune their own instruments any more than banjos want to retune theirs. They should just be honest or if there's a better word for it, maybe truthful? Truthful and polite? They should just tell newbies that we stay in one key because banjos retune for all the keys and fiddles retune for some of the keys and it's just too much trouble to wait for retuning over and over again.

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I used to attend a local jam on a weekly basis. Everyone at these jams , including me, played in standard. A banjo guy often came and we let him take time to retune for some of the tunes. I'll have to say I think jams work best in standard tuning. I'm surprised to hear you run successful jams were banjo players AND fiddlers retune during the jam.  So, it seems to me your group plays pretty well together.

I don't attend jams anymore. Do miss em' in some ways, but i think maybe this was mostly for the socializaion. I hated playing the dopey tunes some people selected. I remeber one in particular, it was called "Stinky's Blues". I had to reach for the vomit bag when this one got played. All my playing these days is at home and just about all of it is some weird cross tuning.   

Edited by - RichJ on 09/13/2021 07:39:32

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/13/2021:  12:48:00

Well we got a few conversations going on here, but I just wanted to share a backup track I've made with a few minutes I had this afternoon...it's Maysville in F...meant to be played cross tuned FCFA...I plan to get to that maybe on Friday if time allows and try to get a youtube of Maysville in Calico F tuning on the fiddle. I think/hope I got the tricky timing/chord progression better this time than my attempts with this one in C. If not interested, please ignore...lol.

Quincy - Posted - 09/13/2021:  19:27:01

This discussion goes far beyond what I can understand.

It's the middle of the night, 04:11, using a heavy rubber coated metal mute , and I just managed to play Il silenzio (a typical trumpet song) now on my violin exactly the way I wanted it to sound.



I need these Perfection Pegs !



I'm totally addicted already, this is what I wanted, to experiment and improvise. That Il Silenzio is not a typical fiddle tune doesn't bother me at all, the sound is great in AEAE, that's what matters to me.



I was a bit confused with third finger on lower E, at first I didn't know what to do with it because it sounds same as the open A next to it haha.



Question: Am I supposed to use my fourth finger too while cross tuning?



And also: I will pretty soon start to learn third position, can you experiment with positions while cross tuning?

And also: for some strange reason I find it a lot easier to have a loose thumb on the left hand now that I am in AEAE, it comes naturally, while in standard tuning I often use too much pressure. This is what I needed to concentrate on now: loose thumb ... to be able to switch positions.

Edited by - Quincy on 09/13/2021 19:42:59

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/13/2021:  19:57:32

You have options to handle strings that sound the same as others in any way you'd like to use that.

Yes, you can use the fourth finger if you want to/need to.

Yes, I slide up to third position all the time in cross-tuned. You can play any ol' way you choose...you just have different sounds to utilize in your playing when crosstuned.

buckhenry - Posted - 09/13/2021:  20:03:56

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Originally posted by Quincy

can you experiment with positions while cross tuning?

 

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Absolutely, carnatic violinists cross tune and they play all over the fingerboard.

Quincy - Posted - 09/13/2021:  20:07:13

Thank you Peggy! I just love how I discover stuff other violinists don't even seem to have ever heard about. I posted on a violin forum about how I tuned to AEAE, the immediate response was like : Què? Shouldn't this be GDAE?
I've got the key, I've got the secret ... I've got the key to another way , oh yes this is what it feels like :D

Quincy - Posted - 09/13/2021:  20:14:36

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

quote:

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Originally posted by Quincy

can you experiment with positions while cross tuning?

 

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Absolutely, carnatic violinists cross tune and they play all over the fingerboard.

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Had to look this up! I had no idea of their existence... Must check this out hehe.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/13/2021:  21:11:05

Quincy -- Keep doing what you're doing. Experiment. Make music. Enjoy the heck out of it!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/14/2021:  04:10:56

When you're in sawmill tuning, AEAE, GDGD, etc., two sets of perfect fifths strings with a perfect fourth in the middle...you can double stop and slide as usual on the outside two strings...like finger one on higher pitched string and finger three on lower pitched string. Use that finger pattern backwards to do the same with the middle two strings...i.e. finger one on the lower pitched string and finger three on the higher pitched string...this take a little getting used to, but if you do it a lot you get used to that. Once in a while I get mixed up which I'm doing and get that backwards...lol...but on ly if I just pick up the fiddle in the first few minutes of playing. If you tune to some type Cumberland Gap type tuning....ADAD, GCGC, etc., two sets of perfect fourths with a perfect fifth in the middle two strings...the finger patterns for double stops will be reversed from the sawmill tuning patterns...regular double stops in the middle two strings and reversed fingering in the outer two sets of strings. There's a lot of neat stuff hiding in them fingerboards when you go fiddlin' with the tunings.

RichJ - Posted - 09/14/2021:  07:45:44

quote:

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Originally posted by Quincy

This discussion goes far beyond what I can understand.

It's the middle of the night, 04:11, using a heavy rubber coated metal mute , and I just managed to play Il silenzio (a typical trumpet song) now on my violin exactly the way I wanted it to sound.



I need these Perfection Pegs !



I'm totally addicted already, this is what I wanted, to experiment and improvise. That Il Silenzio is not a typical fiddle tune doesn't bother me at all, the sound is great in AEAE, that's what matters to me.



I was a bit confused with third finger on lower E, at first I didn't know what to do with it because it sounds same as the open A next to it haha.



Question: Am I supposed to use my fourth finger too while cross tuning?



And also: I will pretty soon start to learn third position, can you experiment with positions while cross tuning?

And also: for some strange reason I find it a lot easier to have a loose thumb on the left hand now that I am in AEAE, it comes naturally, while in standard tuning I often use too much pressure. This is what I needed to concentrate on now: loose thumb ... to be able to switch positions.

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Perfection Pegs will certainly help with cross tuning. I believe these so-called geared tuners are also made by another company and called Wittner fine tuner pegs. I have never used Wittner pegs but have several sets of Perfection pegs on three of my fiddles. You can buy a set for around $70 in this country and install them yourself, not really hard tpo do but then most people probably won't want to do this. Installed by a luthier a set will likely cost around $100. The best part of all this is they can be removed anytime and replace with traditional pegs.

boxbow - Posted - 09/14/2021:  16:19:52

I'm not taking anything away from geared tuners. They are clearly of benefit to many. I retune with conventional pegs and fine tuners integral to a Wittner tailpiece and using steel strings. Practice helps. Mostly because after awhile you learn how to compensate for the fiddle flexing as you retune. I use a basic clip on tuner at home and/or my ear.

WyoBob - Posted - 09/14/2021:  16:38:51

quote:

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Originally posted by RichJ

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Perfection Pegs will certainly help with cross tuning. I believe these so-called geared tuners are also made by another company and called Wittner fine tuner pegs. I have never used Wittner pegs but have several sets of Perfection pegs on three of my fiddles. You can buy a set for around $70 in this country and install them yourself, not really hard tpo do but then most people probably won't want to do this. Installed by a luthier a set will likely cost around $100. The best part of all this is they can be removed anytime and replace with traditional pegs.

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Different mechanics involved, "Perfection" vs "Wittner".  I researched both and installed Wittner's on my two good fiddles and am happy with my choice.   They were pretty easy to install and I'd sure do it again.   The "Perfection" pegs seemed to me to require more "finesse" in fitting than the Wittner's, so I went with what seemed the easiest to install and the ones who's design I liked the best.

Either would be better than poorly fitted, conventional pegs for those of us with "wonky fingers", IMO, and my first fiddle from Kennedy didn't have very well fitted conventional pegs.   It seems that, when you get older and maybe get a case of arthritis in your fingers that  don't work like they did 40 or so years ago that mechanical tuners work pretty darned good.

The only experience I have with Perfection pegs were when I bought a carbon fiber fiddle that had them installed.   I returned the fiddle for a refund for that reason and others.

Loup - Posted - 09/14/2021:  16:56:14

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

So, you won't likely break a string UNLESS you are using synthetic strings. Then you ~might~ but still probably not. Steel strings work best as synthetics will wear out quicker. Start out in GDae tuning. Take your G string and tune it upwards to an A, make it an octave with your A string. Now you're in a D cross tuning (ADae). You'll probably have to make tiny adjustments to the other strings to be totally in tune. Play a key of D number and see if the fiddle doesn't ring a little more.



Next you should give what most call "cross tuned" a go. Keep the G string tuned to A and bring the D string up to E (match the E string as an octave) and you are in AEae tuning. Again, you'll have to micro adjust the other strings, but when everything is tight and in tune, the fiddle will definitely RING sympathetically when you play a key of A tune. The fingering of a scale will be exactly the same on the lower strings as it is on the upper. That's the biggest adjustment you'll have to make. You could tune the a and E strings down to make the tuning GDgd, but it would still be considered by most to be "cross tuned" and that means A tunes (only they would be pitched in G).



That's probably more than you need to know for now.

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I've used  cross tuning and it needed some time to get used to fingering the tune.But I can play the same tune in standard tuning. I'm lost,lol. Why cross tune .

Loup 

Oatlands Sydney Australia

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/14/2021:  16:58:41

My traditional friction pegs get me within spitting distance and the fine-tuners on my tailpiece do the rest. Also, if you can hold the fiddle steady with just your shoulder and jaw (I use a shoulder rest), you can really home in on the proper pitches as you bow the string you intend to tune.*

*Yeah, it's just one of those fiddly things that a bowed note is always a fraction higher in pitch than a plucked note.

sbhikes2 - Posted - 09/15/2021:  10:31:48

Rather than changing the pegs just get another fiddle you keep in cross tuning. You know you want another fiddle.

Quincy - Posted - 09/18/2021:  22:27:44

Haha I get totally nuts when in GDGD.
I LOVE GDGD!
Need to work on my rhythm, but this was me first time in GDGD, just testing out what kind of feeling it would give me.
Next step is to learn the typical fiddle tunes in AEAE and GDGD ofcourse.
I just had to know how this felt.

VIDEO: GDGD
(click to view)

 

danieljtb - Posted - 09/19/2021:  17:01:32

Quincy

very cool exploration into that crosstuning. Ive been at the fiddle about as long as you,candvI usually listen to all your posts. Im not as brave as you to go public yet.

I have only done crosstuning. you've got 545 gdgd, next try 454 gcgc. Between those two almost all fiddle tune are approachable. Then there are the slight crossT variations based upon those 2. keep at it...you are doing fine.

hokelore - Posted - 09/20/2021:  04:20:47

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

Rather than changing the pegs just get another fiddle you keep in cross tuning. You know you want another fiddle.

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I saw The Crooked Jades once at Bean Blossom, and Adam Tanner was up there with four different fiddles.

Jimbeaux - Posted - 09/20/2021:  13:54:34

I'm the opposite of @Quincy's story. I started out in cross tuning and quickly added ADAE. It was probably more than 2 years into fiddling that I started exploring standard. I probably even tried calico first.

Now I love standard and can't get enough it, but I still love my cross tunes!

Groundhog Peggy mentioned playing a C tune in calico. I think that makes a lot of sense considering that both of these make your highest string the major 3rd of the key. Some people like to play Billy in the Lowground in calico.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2021:  18:27:07

Anja...almost sounds like Old Joe Clark! Glad to see you're having fun with cross tuning. It's just a vast universe of music out there waiting for us to find it!

Quincy - Posted - 09/21/2021:  00:03:46

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Anja...almost sounds like Old Joe Clark! Glad to see you're having fun with cross tuning. It's just a vast universe of music out there waiting for us to find it!

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That you can hear I was experimenting with the finger positions for Old Joe clark , that is just great :D

Next thing on my violin planning: learn how to play Angelina Baker !