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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: A simple Etude for smooth playing


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/55661

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/27/2021:  11:55:30


Often when it is slow while busking, I'll challenge myself by adapting a tune to fit a bowing pattern as an exercise in bowing..Someone asked how that works... Well here is an etude I made to demonstrate what it is I do.. I do several other things for practice. Today I focused on playing tunes on two strings all the way through just to see how they sound and to see what works and what doesn't..

Anyway.. You'll notice that there is no NAME on the etude. That is because the tune itself is NOT important since this is a BOWING exercise..Of course as you play it you'll quickly hear what tune it is based on..

I'm not the best transcriber as you'll find out quickly..



This is like Goldie Locks ...For some it will be too easy, for others it will be too hard, but for SOME  it will be JUST WHAT they need to be doing at this time. Enjoy


sbhikes2 - Posted - 08/27/2021:  16:09:38


It's good you have found a way to work on your skills like that. I don't think I'd have the patience to write it all out like that.

There's a free download of etudes you can get. The ones I've played so far I think are fun to play. imslp.org/wiki/60_Studies_for_...n,_Op.45_(Wohlfahrt,_Franz) I think you could modify them to sound more like fiddle tunes and of course do your own bowings for them. They have a bunch of bowing suggestions at the beginning. These etude non-tune tunes kind of help you not get hung up on the melody and focus on other things.

sbhikes2 - Posted - 08/27/2021:  16:37:15


My link did not work. Let me use the rich text thing. imslp.org/wiki/60_Studies_for_...n,_Op.45_(Wohlfahrt,_Franz)

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/27/2021:  17:52:50


quote:

Originally posted by sbhikes2

My link did not work. Let me use the rich text thing. imslp.org/wiki/60_Studies_for_...n,_Op.45_(Wohlfahrt,_Franz)






Yes, I've played out of that years ago.. What I'm posting is pretty specific to OT, but any etude will help..it is all about the bow...but you already know that.. The two patterns I've listed are the shuffle Pattern (not exactly the shuffle Sound) and the Play Three-Slur Three.. Pogo probably had a name for that.. The Play three-slur three is my favorite pattern for getting through notey tunes smoothly..

sbhikes2 - Posted - 08/27/2021:  18:05:20


I will have to try it. Play three slur three, but then there are two leftover??

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/27/2021:  18:13:57


quote:

Originally posted by sbhikes2

I will have to try it. Play three slur three, but then there are two leftover??






It is actually, Play Three-SLur Three, Play Two..!!!  I originally came across it in Celtic music..but it works really well in OT...The lower two lines are just shuffle Pattern...The important thing to remember is that the Slur three is ALWAYS an up stroke..



 



I also practice Two UP, two Down,   and other times practice playing tunes with Saw Shuffle, which is all saw strokes with emphasis or double stop on the third of each four notes... Any  practice with just Bowing is invaluable IMO..



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/27/2021 18:14:41

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/27/2021:  18:34:22


I'm so embarrassed. I just found out that Goldilocks..is only One word, not two.

sbhikes2 - Posted - 08/27/2021:  19:02:16


All saw strokes? My friend plays like that. It sounds fine. I cannot do it with any speed. I do not know how to play fast. I just cannot do it and this seems universal to almost any instrument. I can play fastest on mandolin but I still cannot play as fast as a lot of people can play.

NCnotes - Posted - 08/28/2021:  08:44:55


Thanks for sharing, this looks great,
I saved this to practice!

I'm confounded by time signature....
let's see, is it played like two triplets and two eighth notes, so count it in 3?
beat 1 - triplet
beat 2 - triplet
beat 3 - two eighth notes
So I would guess time sig is 3 over 4. ( Not sure though :-)

DougD - Posted - 08/28/2021:  09:21:31


There are eight eighth notes per bar, so its in 4/4. No triplets. At least that's how its written.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/28/2021:  09:49:09


The confusion had to do with how you beamed the notes together. When three notes share a beam they are read as either a triplet (or one beat as in a jig, 6/8 time, in fact your first two parts read like an odd slip jig laugh) The sets of 4 notes beamed together look/read better. Probably a double beam is needed for four notes to a beat.


Edited by - ChickenMan on 08/28/2021 09:50:30

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/28/2021:  09:54:38


THIS will clear things up...Here is Sugar Hill played using PlayThree_slurThree play two (poor audio!! but it is  just a demo) ..  I'll let those of you who know more about transcribing than I do explain the time signature..PLEASE..



Dang.. shoulda' used my metronome!!



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/28/2021 10:05:54


TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/28/2021:  10:32:47


If I was to come across sheet music similar to what I posted (and I have) , I'd play it one beat=one note, very slowly.. and do that until my body understood the flow and my hand had the slurs going smoothly..

JonD - Posted - 08/28/2021:  15:51:23


Nice to find some etudes that have been helpful. Thanks for sharing these.



My occasional fiddle coach introduced me to the Dancla (Opus 84) Etudes #2 #3 etc.  Wicked intervals, 4th finger notes and constant string changes....sort of like bad tasting medicine. But I'm starting to sound less than awful at it, so it must be good for me...


Edited by - JonD on 08/28/2021 16:03:35

DougD - Posted - 08/28/2021:  16:24:39


My luthier used to keep the Wohlfahrt etude book open on a stand in his shop and sometimes we would try one or two when I visited. They seemed pretty "musical" to me.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/29/2021:  08:29:08


Just said goodbye to Hangout member DulcimerBill, who traveled from Louisville to spent a day jamminging/busking/learning./teaching.. It is a LOT easier do demonstrate these etudes in person than it is to make a demo or to put it in tab... I hope that at least one person has learned something from this.

dulcimer bill - Posted - 08/29/2021:  13:43:14


A great weekend. And a great lesson. Thanks again.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/30/2021:  08:05:13


I'm curious. Have any of you tried to play this? Have you had success?

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/31/2021:  11:52:48


I busked today and played several tunes with Only the play three-slur three method.. C'mon you are missing out on all of the fun and interesting sounds you can get with this..!!wink

Brian Wood - Posted - 08/31/2021:  14:50:51


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I busked today and played several tunes with Only the play three-slur three method.. C'mon you are missing out on all of the fun and interesting sounds you can get with this..!!wink






I'm not knocking it if it works for you. After I learned some basic bowing patterns I stopped thinking about it. I really like bowing freely. Occasionally I'll work on bowing in a tough spot but not an entire tune, except sometimes jig-bowing. But for old-time tunes my bow seems to know what to do. Most of my thinking goes to my left hand.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/31/2021:  17:18:13


quote:

Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I busked today and played several tunes with Only the play three-slur three method.. C'mon you are missing out on all of the fun and interesting sounds you can get with this..!!wink






I'm not knocking it if it works for you. After I learned some basic bowing patterns I stopped thinking about it. I really like bowing freely. Occasionally I'll work on bowing in a tough spot but not an entire tune, except sometimes jig-bowing. But for old-time tunes my bow seems to know what to do. Most of my thinking goes to my left hand.






Can't argue with that.. this is an EXERCISE in bowing,  NOT  how to play the tune. Everyone forgets that..wink

JonD - Posted - 09/01/2021:  08:42:32


I gave the first one a go yesterday. Fun! Not being a great sight reader it took a few goes to get the hang of it, but can see the value of training my bow hand.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/01/2021:  10:38:08


quote:

Originally posted by JonD

I gave the first one a go yesterday. Fun! Not being a great sight reader it took a few goes to get the hang of it, but can see the value of training my bow hand.






Good to hear you are enjoying the challenge!!!

NCnotes - Posted - 09/01/2021:  21:40:01


I love this bowing pattern!
I think this bowing pattern already sounds more "fiddley" than my usual playing.

But I was playing it like a weird sounding jig (using triplets) and it sounds NOTHING like your MP3, which I just checked out
So I will have to go back and have another try, changing my counting...!

Thanks again for posting :-)

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/02/2021:  04:59:48


quote:

Originally posted by NCnotes

I love this bowing pattern!

I think this bowing pattern already sounds more "fiddley" than my usual playing.



But I was playing it like a weird sounding jig (using triplets) and it sounds NOTHING like your MP3, which I just checked out

So I will have to go back and have another try, changing my counting...!



Thanks again for posting :-)






Be sure to note that the second two lines of music are using the Long-short-short pattern..another important way to use one's bow......That would  normally be called the Nashville Shuffle BUT in this case the pattern is being used not as a shuffle but as a way of moving through the notes smoothly...The more ways you challenge you bow the more creative you'll be......Should you really 'get' into these, I'll send you on more good one.. Also, if I've played that demo too fast, I can send you a recording of it being played slowly.....Glad you are enjoying the music. Cheers.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/02/2021:  06:05:49


BTW, the demo mp3 is based on the tune Sugar Hill and the sheet music is based on ANOTHER, intentionally unnamed tune...I left it unnamed so you'd not be having preconceived ideas about how the music should sound. Just play the Notes... Once you can play the music, THEN the tune it is based upon will be evident.

NCnotes - Posted - 09/02/2021:  07:03:47


Thanks TuneWeaver!

It will be tough...playing in 4/4, slurring in 3 notes is sure gonna feel strange!
( I think in 4/4, classical players tend to slur based on the beat, so 2 notes or 4 notes together.)
But that's the whole point, I think, and what makes the charm of fiddling...and what makes it sound different from violining...
I will post a progress report when I can!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/02/2021:  07:11:36


A little 'help' is to remind yourself that you are just playing 8 equal notes in succession..but the bow is doing its own thing.. One could play the first three, pause, do the slurred three, pause and play the final two...Do that until the bowing develops some brain/hand coordination... It should only take a short time and then it will make sense..

DougD - Posted - 09/02/2021:  08:59:36


NCNotes - Here's a YouTube video of Kevin Burke where he demonstrates a similar technique, except its "upbow three, downbow three, and two detached." He doesn't mean it has to be three eighth notes, but that much time value, whether a dotted quarter, quarter and eighth, etc. He emphasizes that its counterintuitive because it begins with an upbow, and beat three falls in the middle of the downbow, just as you noticed.
youtu.be/1AMesSTGSd8

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/02/2021:  11:49:06


Kevin Burke's video is interesting.. In my etude Every three note slur is an UP stroke..

DougD - Posted - 09/02/2021:  12:34:14


As I see your etude, its D,U,D - U,U,U - D - U. What that has in common with Kevin's approach is the idea of dividing the 8 into 3,3 and 2, which, as he says, is kind of counterintuitive since most reels are phrased in 4, or multiples or subdivisions of 4.
Its a lttle like Scruggs style banjo, actually.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/02/2021:  13:33:23


Mostly what I liked about Kevin's video is that he Demonstrated what he was talking about.. I used to get so frustrated with the bowing threads which Only used U and D to explain bowing. I couldn't follow it. However I can't question the intent or knowledge of the thread participants (Pogo, RIP)...Pogo and those others were all smart people..
That frustration was the motivation for my posting sheet music and demo (both obviously faulty). I thought that if I'm going to discuss bowing I should "put my money where my mouth is"...! (I draw the line at videos!! That is something he and I both had in common...red light fever .)
Back to the pattern. Yes, the pattern seems awkward at first but it is addictive as anyone who plays it will tell us....

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/02/2021:  14:57:40


Doug, my apologies if it sounded like I was complaining about your description of the etude as DUD,UUU, DU.... That is in fact correct!! It is just that If I had posted just that, it would not have explained much to readers.. No offense intended..

dulcimer bill - Posted - 09/02/2021:  15:41:04


Why I love this site.

Fiddling is the hardest thing I’ve ever tackled. And when you don’t read music, well…

But by tackling this, it forces me to “read” and exercise both bowing and learning to site read. Ive said I’m an ear player, and I think a pretty good one. And as we all know; keeping young by exercising your brain is important.

Keep em coming folks. 


Edited by - dulcimer bill on 09/02/2021 15:42:31

JonD - Posted - 09/02/2021:  15:46:41


Here's a hornpipe example where the 3-note slur occurs in 3 different places in the measure.
(From Pete Cooper's Irish Fiddle book)
I guess the goal would be to get to where you can put one of these in anywhere it makes sense for the tune.



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/03/2021:  07:39:46


For those interested, I'm going to be putting two tunes into the OP form of play-three, slur-three, play two.... The tunes will be Whiteface, and Forked Deer.. Both tune sound wonderful with that bowing.. but for the zillionth time.. I'm not recommending playing those tunes Always using that bowint.. This is still an Bowing Exercise.. Anyway, those who might want to get sheet music for the tunes can send me a personal message and I'll email the sheet music to you..

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/20/2021:  09:24:48


"Sweet Milk And Peaches" has been a favorite busking tune of mine for a long time.. Today I was checking out sheet music for the tune.. I found Three transcriptions based on the original.....In One of the transcriptions, the SLUR THREE showed up often..Those who worked on the Etude in the OP will have no problem slurring three notes..So that is where the value of an etude can show up..Check this out.



tunearch.org/wiki/Sweet_Milk_and_Peaches



I'll be headed out to busk in a little while.. Plan is to see how many slur-trees I can put in just for FUN.



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 09/20/2021 09:27:55

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/20/2021:  20:25:38


Slurring three isn't a completely novel idea. It is part of the charm of Henry Reed's playing for sure.

Snafu - Posted - 09/23/2021:  10:29:37


Lee, for some reason I was thinking about this last night and the thought came that maybe this practice etude should have been notated without any bar lines so nobody got hung up with the time signature and how to count it.

If that approach was good enough for the $100 Milliner-Koken tome anthology of old time tunes it should work here too. And M-K’s logic for not having the bar lines is really on display after reading some of the comments.

Just my two cents…

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/23/2021:  12:04:52


quote:

Originally posted by Snafu

Lee, for some reason I was thinking about this last night and the thought came that maybe this practice etude should have been notated without any bar lines so nobody got hung up with the time signature and how to count it.



If that approach was good enough for the $100 Milliner-Koken tome anthology of old time tunes it should work here too. And M-K’s logic for not having the bar lines is really on display after reading some of the comments.



Just my two cents…






Yes.. I've read everything that M-K has written in their book.. Measure lines would be helpful but I'm playing out of that book Daily and have gotten used to not seeing measure lines.. As for the  etude, it is just a series of notes and  100% of them have the same value..(As I recall)...I should have written DUDUUUDU...and just continued that pattern!!! wink As I've stated elsewhere, it always frustrated me when some other bowing topics seldom (never?)  included  examples.. So I've put my money where my mouth is.  I have a lot of fun using bowing patters as EXERCISES and after a while I find that those exercises translate into interesting bowing in the fiddle tunes I play.."results may vary''.. THanks for your comment.  BTW.. Have you tried the etude?

Snafu - Posted - 09/23/2021:  12:53:32


Q Have you tried the etude?  

'A - not yet ,I'm still trying to figure out the time signature and how to count it! ????????‍??


Edited by - Snafu on 09/23/2021 12:54:22

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/23/2021:  12:58:00


quote:

Originally posted by Snafu

Q Have you tried the etude?  

'A - not yet ,I'm still trying to figure out the time signature and how to count it! ????????‍??






How about One note=one beat...!! laugh    It works well in 4/4 ... You choose...the bow will be doing the same thing no matter what time is played...But seriously.. sometimes when I'm working on a new piece of music and don't understand the bowing, I'll LITERALLY do One beat per 8th (or whatever)note  just to get the bowing under control.... 



 



 



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 09/23/2021 13:00:25

Snafu - Posted - 09/23/2021:  13:19:08


Lee. Yea, I was joking but the smile emoji symbols got lost. I will try it tonight. I actually like playing etudes. I play tunes from the Wohlfahrt books a few times a month. Most folks ignore his bowing pattern suggestions but if you want a workout try some of them.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/23/2021:  13:28:30


quote:

Originally posted by Snafu

Lee. Yea, I was joking but the smile emoji symbols got lost. I will try it tonight. I actually like playing etudes. I play tunes from the Wohlfahrt books a few times a month. Most folks ignore his bowing pattern suggestions but if you want a workout try some of them.






I suspected you were teasing!!! The etude sheet music is NOT based on the same tune as the audio (sugar hill)... As I said, I didn't name the tune because people should not have a preconceived idea about what tune  they are playing.. Report back once you've played with it and let us know what you think.. It is really a  pretty basic exercise.


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 09/23/2021 13:32:10

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/23/2021:  15:29:25


 Who of you think that my etude is too challenging?  Check THIS out:   fiddlerman.com/studies-etudes-...d-etudes/


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 09/23/2021 15:29:43

cunparis - Posted - 10/19/2021:  00:07:07


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

For those interested, I'm going to be putting two tunes into the OP form of play-three, slur-three, play two.... The tunes will be Whiteface, and Forked Deer.. Both tune sound wonderful with that bowing.. but for the zillionth time.. I'm not recommending playing those tunes Always using that bowint.. This is still an Bowing Exercise.. Anyway, those who might want to get sheet music for the tunes can send me a personal message and I'll email the sheet music to you..






Thank you for starting this thread.  I've just started paying attention to my bowing.  Up until now I was using mostly sawstroke with an occassional slur to get the down bow on a strong beat.  Now I'm learning to use the Nashville Shuffle and it really makes everything sound more interesting.  I'm working on your étude.  I read music so I can follow the bowing but when I try to apply it to a song I already know (by memory) I have a hard time applying bowing patterns.  If you have any advice for that please share.



I'd love to hear the two tunes with this bowing.  I've been waiting but they haven't appeared.  If you have time can you please post them.  And if you can attach the sheet music that would be helpful too.



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 10/19/2021:  12:48:06


quote:

Originally posted by cunparis

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

For those interested, I'm going to be putting two tunes into the OP form of play-three, slur-three, play two.... The tunes will be Whiteface, and Forked Deer.. Both tune sound wonderful with that bowing.. but for the zillionth time.. I'm not recommending playing those tunes Always using that bowint.. This is still an Bowing Exercise.. Anyway, those who might want to get sheet music for the tunes can send me a personal message and I'll email the sheet music to you.. 






Thank you for starting this thread.  I've just started paying attention to my bowing.  Up until now I was using mostly sawstroke with an occassional slur to get the down bow on a strong beat.  Now I'm learning to use the Nashville Shuffle and it really makes everything sound more interesting.  I'm working on your étude.  I read music so I can follow the bowing but when I try to apply it to a song I already know (by memory) I have a hard time applying bowing patterns.  If you have any advice for that please share.



I'd love to hear the two tunes with this bowing.  I've been waiting but they haven't appeared.  If you have time can you please post them.  And if you can attach the sheet music that would be helpful too.



 






Something I did when I was learning to use my bow was to take a notey tune that has a lot, LOT, of 1/8th notes in sets of four and PUT   a slur over the first two notes of each set.. Then, try to play that.. That is often called Nashville Shuffle bowing but it has other uses as well... It really is all about the bow.. That does not mean that one can't do well with saw stroke.. I didn't discover the Value of the saw stroke until after I'd played for years...Putting a rhythm to the saw  stroke can be miraculous!!  Check your email for the tunes.



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 10/19/2021 12:48:49

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/19/2021:  13:52:57


A tune like "June Apple," that has a full phrase played on just the E string is a good one to practice bowing alternatives. At least the version I play is good for that, it consists of a string of equal length notes, let's call them 16th notes. You can easily play it using the long short short (2 1 1) Nashville Shuffle and vary from there. It lends itself nicely to the three notes on the up bow one on the down that makes up Georgia Shuffle too. My goal is usually to start a phrase with a down bow and end it with an up, but I can completely reverse that as needed, which really should be the ultimate goal (flexibility and control).

TuneWeaver - Posted - 10/19/2021:  14:08:06


quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

A tune like "June Apple," that has a full phrase played on just the E string is a good one to practice bowing alternatives. At least the version I play is good for that, it consists of a string of equal length notes, let's call them 16th notes. You can easily play it using the long short short (2 1 1) Nashville Shuffle and vary from there. It lends itself nicely to the three notes on the up bow one on the down that makes up Georgia Shuffle too. My goal is usually to start a phrase with a down bow and end it with an up, but I can completely reverse that as needed, which really should be the ultimate goal (flexibility and control).






Flexibility and control..!!! You said it!!! or at least flexibility..!laugh

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