WyoBob - Posted - 07/24/2021:  16:35:40

I have a question about the JohnPaul "Fusion", carbon fiber bow covered in Pernambuco.

Any recent experiences with this bow?  It's come up in my research on occasion and lots of folks seem to think it's a pretty nice bow for the price.

My main question?  How on earth to they layer "Pernambuco" wood onto a carbon fiber bow?    Is powdered Pernambuco powdered "bits" used in an epoxy mix?  

I can't figure out how they could possibly bond a veneer of Pernambuco to the carbon fiber.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/25/2021:  12:38:43

I haven't seen the ones that JohnPaul makes, but I carry the similar ones that Krutz sells, and those appear to be just a CF core stuck in a Pernambuco bow. So far, fiddlers have liked them because they have good backbone, slightly weight-forward balance, and better sound than a CF bow. CF is lighter and stiffer than pernambuco, so it makes it easier to tailor the balance and playing characteristics of the bow without getting into a lot of individual hand tailoring, so you can build a little more uniformity and quality into a production bow and gain some of the benefits of CF along with some of the tonal benefits of pernambuco.

WyoBob - Posted - 07/25/2021:  18:38:49

Thanks, Michael.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/25/2021:  19:12:59

The JonPaul Fusion bows are carbon fiber bows with a very thin veneer glued onto the stick. Like many carbon fiber bows, they’re a bit too stiff, but they’re not bad for beginning players. They can be tricky to rehair (I’ve worked on a lot of them) because of the stiffness.



They are intended to look like wood bows, but they don’t play like them, so the “fusion” is about aesthetics, not functionality. At a previous shop where I worked, they were the next step up from rental level bows.



These bows were developed to disguise carbon in order to appease teachers that couldn’t stand the look of non-wood bows in school orchestras. They do that fairly well and they’re better than brazilwood bows, although not as good as pernambuco or other comparable carbon bows.

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 07/25/2021 19:14:10

JonD - Posted - 07/26/2021:  06:33:23

I have a Fusion as my primary bow and I've had the same question -- "how the heck do they do that". Inspecting closely with my phone camera I can sort of see the seam at the tip, but overall it's very well crafted and beautiful to the eye. How it sounds -- well let's just say it's not the limiting factor in my fiddle sound at this stage!

WyoBob - Posted - 07/26/2021:  16:55:27

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

The JonPaul Fusion bows are carbon fiber bows with a very thin veneer glued onto the stick. Like many carbon fiber bows, they’re a bit too stiff, but they’re not bad for beginning players. They can be tricky to rehair (I’ve worked on a lot of them) because of the stiffness.



They are intended to look like wood bows, but they don’t play like them, so the “fusion” is about aesthetics, not functionality. At a previous shop where I worked, they were the next step up from rental level bows.



These bows were developed to disguise carbon in order to appease teachers that couldn’t stand the look of non-wood bows in school orchestras. They do that fairly well and they’re better than brazilwood bows, although not as good as pernambuco or other comparable carbon bows.

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Well, Rich, I am a student (of sorts).   I don't have an instructor or anyone else that I play my fiddle with, so I don't need to impress anyone but me. (Possibly a really good thing.)

I'm 74 years old and doing something I never thought I'd do.  I've  been playing the fiddle for almost 2 years.   I'm learning, in my basement, simply for the enjoyment it gives me every day and I play quite a bit every day.   I have a wood bow that was part of a package and it's not too bad.  I have two, Kmise, $35.00 Chinese C.F. bows that work quite well for me at this stage and they play better than the wood bow.   I also have a Coda NX which works quite well.   Is the NX worth 8.8 times more than I paid for the low cost Kmise bows?  Probably not but, I thought I deserved a higher quality bow just ---- because.

I just play old time fiddle tunes.  I've been playing O.T. on my banjo for the last 9 years and am now playing with some of the best old time musicians in quite a large area.   Several of the regulars on the FHO know the folk's I'm playing with.   A couple of the people I  play with  had spots on the "Highwoods String Band" story video and played with Tommy Jarrell years ago.   No, I've not played my fiddle with this group and may never be good enough to do so.   Doesn't mean I'm not having a blast.

I'll never buy a high dollar bow.  That would be lost on me.   The Coda NX is far as I'm willing to go.

I was surprised the other day when I had my accomplished fiddle playing buddy play my GEWA fiddle that I bought from the "Bluegrass Shack"  with the $35.00 Kmise bow and the NX.  This was the first time I'd heard my fiddle played by anyone else.  He preferred the $35.00 bow and really liked the action on the GEWA.   This kind of fits with my thoughts on the bows.  The NX is certainly a better constructed bow and looks nicer but, looking nice for others isn't on my list of things to do.   The NX is more refined in the tone it produces but, from what I've gathered from playing with other, excellent O.T. players, well, they just don't worry too much about equipment.  It's all about the music.  Some play really, plain Jane, bows and fiddles but they sound what I hope to sound like one day.   But, right now, I sound better than I thought I would and my wife says my fiddle playing is catching up to my banjo playing.   That's a big boost to my ego, at this stage of my life

Thanks for your comments, Rich.

DougBrock - Posted - 07/26/2021:  17:32:35

I don’t know how they make it, but I’m not too impressed by mine. I’d give you a good deal on it, lol.

WyoBob - Posted - 07/26/2021:  17:57:01

quote:

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Originally posted by DougBrock

I don’t know how they make it, but I’m not too impressed by mine. I’d give you a good deal on it, lol.

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Ha, what's the price.   I'm all about "the deal"

DougBrock - Posted - 07/26/2021:  18:01:30

quote:

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Originally posted by WyoBob

quote:

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Originally posted by DougBrock

I don’t know how they make it, but I’m not too impressed by mine. I’d give you a good deal on it, lol.

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Ha, what's the price.   I'm all about "the deal"

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Lol, I hadn't given it any serious thought! 

JonD - Posted - 07/26/2021:  18:02:01

Hey Wyo Bob two thumbs up from another 'better late than never' fiddle student!
I aspire to get to the stage where my wife compliments my playing, not there yet...
Jon

WyoBob - Posted - 07/27/2021:  11:33:21

quote:

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Originally posted by JonD

Hey Wyo Bob two thumbs up from another 'better late than never' fiddle student!

I aspire to get to the stage where my wife compliments my playing, not there yet...

Jon

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I started with the banjo 9 years ago when I was 65.   I was healing up from a shattered left wrist and nerve damage at the time.    I practiced in a spare bedroom with the door closed.  It took me a long time to make a fast, clean "C" chord.  After 5-6 months, I got up to leave and the door was open.  I asked my wife if and why she opened it and she said, yes, I opened it and it's because you don't sound as bad as you used to.   When I took up the fiddle two years ago,  the door was open after a couple of weeks.   What a great ego boost that was for me!  (or, maybe I just wore her down)

She likes clawhammer banjo best but says my fiddle playing is sounding better and better as time goes by.  Knowing a bunch of "fiddle tunes" on the banjo is a big help in picking up the tunes on the fiddle.   I get to play my banjo with a bunch of really great O.T. players and became mesmerized by their fiddle playing.   So, thought I'd give it a shot.   I just play in the basement for my own amusement and having a lot of fun.   I've got about 30 tunes that I can play up to speed with recordings on my fiddle.

I hope you have as much fun on your fiddle adventure as I've had!

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/27/2021:  20:17:10

I think it would be fun to compare the two bows, if Doug is willing. We're both in the same town. Sounds like the bows are quite different, because the Krutz bow has a much thicker pernambuco shell for starters. Looking at it under a 10x loupe, it's about 2mm thick all around, and it seems to be a clamshell glued onto the carbon fiber core. With a loupe, I can find a glue line down the top and underside. Who knows what we might find with a magnifier and maybe a UV light? I have a good classical player in my house on Thursdays and Saturdays, and it would be fun to get a comparison review from him.

DougBrock - Posted - 07/27/2021:  20:37:00

quote:

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Originally posted by KCFiddles

I think it would be fun to compare the two bows, if Doug is willing. We're both in the same town. Sounds like the bows are quite different, because the Krutz bow has a much thicker pernambuco shell for starters. Looking at it under a 10x loupe, it's about 2mm thick all around, and it seems to be a clamshell glued onto the carbon fiber core. With a loupe, I can find a glue line down the top and underside. Who knows what we might find with a magnifier and maybe a UV light? I have a good classical player in my house on Thursdays and Saturdays, and it would be fun to get a comparison review from him.

Michael, I'll bring the JonPaul Fusion when you make that new viola bridge for me.

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KCFiddles - Posted - 07/27/2021:  20:47:22

quote:

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Originally posted by DougBrock

quote:

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Originally posted by KCFiddles

I think it would be fun to compare the two bows, if Doug is willing. We're both in the same town. Sounds like the bows are quite different, because the Krutz bow has a much thicker pernambuco shell for starters. Looking at it under a 10x loupe, it's about 2mm thick all around, and it seems to be a clamshell glued onto the carbon fiber core. With a loupe, I can find a glue line down the top and underside. Who knows what we might find with a magnifier and maybe a UV light? I have a good classical player in my house on Thursdays and Saturdays, and it would be fun to get a comparison review from him.

Michael, I'll bring the JonPaul Fusion when you make that new viola bridge for me.

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Looking forward to it.

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WyoBob - Posted - 08/14/2021:  16:12:37

Has the bow contest happened yet?

DougBrock - Posted - 08/16/2021:  08:25:22

I took the bow and Michael examined it to see how it was made, but the violinist who might have made the comparison was unavailable, so no playing comparison.

WyoBob - Posted - 09/28/2021:  17:01:03

Well, I did my own comparison, of sorts, because, I can't spend too much time waiting for a comparison contest.  I ain't gettin' any younger, ya know?  I couldn't compare it to the NX as I sold it.

I liked my Coda NX bow but, the thumb pad was like a garter snake had swallowed a squirrel.   I didn't care for it and couldn't stand the thought of mutilating the bow by cutting off the pad and installing heat shrink tubing on it which worked very well for me on my three cheap bows (free  wood bow that came with the Bluegrass Shack fiddle and the two, dirt cheap  $35.00 KMIse bows).  So, I sold the NX to a friend and ordered a JonPaul Fusion from the Fiddlershop.

It didn't take long to rosin the bow (with Magic Rosin) and I've been playing it for a few days.   I like it.   The pad is very minimal and I won't be cutting it off and doing the heat shrink thing.   The NX and my other bows weighed 61 grams and the Fusion weighs 63 grams.  I weighed the Fusion before playing it and was a bit concerned that it might too heavy.   But, the balance (measured) was the best of all of the bows that I owned (and weighed) and it turned out that it works pretty darned good for me.  But, I'm only two years in on the fiddle so am a beginner.  So, I probably don't know what I don't know, but, I know I really like this bow.

I know it's most certainly a Chinese bow and is a carbon fiber bow covered with a Pernambuco veneer.  I don't care about any of that.  I'm not interested in impressing anyone with the fact that I have a "Pernambuco" bow as I play by myself so the only person I have to impress is me.   Unlike the NX and the cheap bows, the Fusion seems to sound  about the same on both of my fiddles, one of which is equipped with Helicores, and the other, Prim mediums.  That wasn't the case with the NX or the "low cost" bows.

The Fusion seems to be what I need at this point in time.  Even though it's heavier, string crossing seem easier and it pulls good sound.  The NX pulled better sound than the cheap C.F. bows but I think the Fusion out does them all.   I have 45 days to "test drive" the Fusion and, if it doesn't work out, I can send it back to the Fiddlershop.   It's half the price of the NX, retail  (though I bought the NX on sale from Shar for $311).   The Fiddlershop guarantees the Fusion for life and I think the Fiddlershop is a good company.

Now, I'm ready to quit worrying about bows and spend time learning new tunes and improving my playing on the tunes I know. 

KCFiddles - Posted - 09/28/2021:  17:19:53

Dang - I completely forgot. Had a LOT of challenges going on and just blew it. I didn't keep notes, Doug may correct me, but IIRC both bows were just a CF core sandwiched in pernambuco, which means they are stiff and relatively light, but produce a warmer sound than straight carbon fiber. Many of my more accomplished customers like them, but some still prefer pernambuco.

Apologies for my negligence!