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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: An overview of all possible double stops


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/55273

Quincy - Posted - 05/22/2021:  23:30:24


Does this exist?

Only now I start to realize what drones are versus double stops, it fascinates me , I tried to play drones with finger on the underlying string and I tried to play a G-scale, D-scale and A scale this way, finally some more options yay :D



Then double stops, with two fingers down , I understood, I tried some combinations, but how many do exist?

Are there books which you would recommend? Am I ready for this? Someone told me I am not. Today I will discuss it with my violin teacher.


Edited by - Quincy on 05/22/2021 23:38:13

Peghead - Posted - 05/23/2021:  04:33:34


A random two note chord has numerous identities, too many to name, and why would you want to? The best way to gain a practical understanding of fiddle chords is to pick one scale, any scale - C is a good place to start. and earn the relationships between the notes of the scale (their intervals) and how double stops are built within that context. You can transfer that knowledge universally to all the other keys.


Edited by - Peghead on 05/23/2021 04:43:51

buckhenry - Posted - 05/23/2021:  04:50:07


I did a diagram of all possible double stops likely to used in folk.

But as Greg inferred ... double stops should be practised in context.



 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/23/2021:  04:54:12


I've always wanted to examine all shapes and sizes, where they lie on the fingerboard and how they all relate to each other...double stops. I figured stuff like that out on the guitar as I was growing up, over decades of just messin' with it, but on the fiddle, I guess I don't have the patience to wait for decades. I did manage to discover how some shapes work out and work together, but seems life is too busy and my mind too cluttered to get it all under my control and at my easy disposal to use without care...lol. I once made a youtube video of my discoveries at a certain point, but I just now looked for that and can't find it...so...well normally I get so self-conscious on camera that I end up deleting them...lol...that's probably what happened to this one, I guess. Life gets so busy I end up forgetting what I discover before I can build more understanding into it. So...this comment is totally unhelpful...lol...sorry...but in my mind, any chord (double stop in this case) shape can be used in another position or other strings, and somehow these have some pattern to be discovered to make it all easy to use. Yeah, we all know that much, and, unlocking the mysteries is the big deal. Well...I figured out some and forgot it again a few times, made a video, lost that...so...I'm not helpful...but I know where you're coming from.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 05/23/2021:  05:56:33


Well .... Practicing doublestops in context. Indeed. Soooo ... take a standard three chord song in the key of D. The chords are going to be I, IV and V .... G , C and D. Play double stops within the chord form at first using combinations of the chord tones in G the G,B and D toned in C the C, E and G tones and in D the D , F# and A tones while in that chord in the song or tune. Sooooo in G your chord tone double stops are G/B, C/G/ and B/D. Learn to hold down two strings with one finger. Then play a major scale while holding down those two strings. Have some fun with it....... Lastly Mel Bay does have a Fiddle Chord Book .... but any mandolin chord book will give you all the doublestops you need. R/


Edited by - UsuallyPickin on 05/23/2021 05:57:49

Baileyb - Posted - 05/23/2021:  06:10:44


I second Mel Bay's "Fiddling Chord Book" by Craig Duncan as an excellent reference.

Also, Mel Bay's "Fiddling Handbook" by Craig Duncan is another excellent reference.

carlb - Posted - 05/23/2021:  06:31:06


There's a chapter on Double Stops in Miles Krassen's "Appalachian Fiddle", Oak Publishers, New York, 1973, pp. 17-24 (just over one page text and the rest are illustrations of examples.



Used copies are available.

bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&a...520fiddle



There are some copies in libraries in the Netherlands; check the list (pp 20-21)

worldcat.org/title/appalachian...f_results



 

DougD - Posted - 05/23/2021:  07:21:46


Here are the possible two note combinations that can be derived from major or minor triads. These can be played in many ways and places on the violin, especially if you include unstopped strings as "doublestops."
Root on the bottom:
Root - third
Root - fifth
Third on the bottom:
Third - fifth
Third - root
Fifth on the bottom:
Fifth - root
Fifth - third
In the key of D, for example, these might be:
Root on the bottom:
D on the 2nd string, F# on the first string
Open D and A strings
Third on the bottom:
F# on the 3rd string, open 2nd string
F# on the 3rd string, D on the 2nd string
Fifth on the bottom:
A on the 4th string, open 3rd string
Open 2nd string, F# on the 1st string
These can be played in other places, especially if you get out of strict first position. You need to know where the notes are on the fingerboard - playing arpeggios will show you where the intervals are. If you move on to more complex chords like sixths, various sevenths and ninths, there are more possibilities.
I'm sure the Craig Duncan books are good, and Miles Krassen's book is also valuable. I wish it were still in print.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/23/2021:  08:32:52


Yes, there are great resources for learning double stops! It’s well worth it to go through them to build technique. I agree that certain aspects of playing can be learned by playing pieces, but technical components like this are often best learned through etudes and exercises, then put to use in playing pieces after their mastery.

The first thing that springs to mind is Šev?ík’s book of Preparatory Exercises in Double Stopping, op. 9.

Pavel Bytovetzski’s book of exercises is also a good resource:

vioolschool.eu/home/files/byto...ski_1.pdf

Hans Sitt has 20 exercises for melodious double stops in book V of his Etudes for Violin, Op.32.

Eduard Herrmann wrote 39 etudes for developing double stops, ranging from beginning lessons to artistic etudes.

There’s a wealth of excellent information available, and most is free on IMSLP. A lot of the melodious etudes are pleasant little pieces to play, so it’s not drudgery.

RB-1 - Posted - 05/23/2021:  11:05:51


quote:

Originally posted by carlb

There's a chapter on Double Stops in Miles Krassen's "Appalachian Fiddle", Oak Publishers, New York, 1973, pp. 17-24 (just over one page text and the rest are illustrations of examples.



There are some copies in libraries in the Netherlands; check the list (pp 20-21)

worldcat.org/title/appalachian...f_results






Libraries? Possible.



Geo location seems right though, at least we're having one here at home.



But it was so heavy into Old Time that I lost interest by the time I found out.



Gave up fiddle for >25 years but re-started last September.



Most of my practice nowadays is playing with doublestops in a Bluegrass context, all by ear, from fragments I remember having heard sometime.



Playing the mandolin for over 50 years, in all possible positions, yields a good fingerboard knowledge and apart from intonation being harder, I found it similar enough yet for starting from there...



 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/23/2021:  13:36:37


quote:

Originally posted by buckhenry

I did a diagram of all possible double stops likely to used in folk.



But as Greg inferred ... double stops should be practised in context.






That's a good way of looking at it... as shows possible combination of what 2 fingers can reach to make; moveable to any 2 strings anywhere up the fingerboard. Not just folk... as all musicians, any genre have the same 4 fingers to use. It's not overly complex possibilities.



I notice you are missing a few, both the m6 and dim4, only list 1-2, but have 2-3 and 3-4 possibilities. And missed the 4-1 Maj 2nd.



Should note that the labeling them is via interval distance, not chord names; which might confuse some folks.  They are 2 notes of possible chords, (which depend on context); could be used, as with DougD's concept of triad names. 


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/23/2021 13:51:17

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/23/2021:  13:50:45


i found a good place to start with double stops are pentatonic scales, because any two notes on adjacent strings seem to harmonize..?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/23/2021:  14:10:01


I forgot to mention... 



Then double stops, with two fingers down , I understood, I tried some combinations, but how many do exist?



Part of what Buck was showing is simply the physical of how many exist; just what's possible with fingers. 



The other part... along what DougD mentioned; less physical, how many exist in harmonic contexts. This involves basic music theory understanding; how chords are made; root, third, fifth... (and extended). This is useful in learning how to use for harmonization, how might fit in a tune. One way to develop this is by playing  a bit more as basic chord accompaniment... like seconding.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/23/2021 14:14:25

RB-1 - Posted - 05/23/2021:  14:33:48


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

i found a good place to start with double stops are pentatonic scales, because any two notes on adjacent strings seem to harmonize..?






yes

buckhenry - Posted - 05/23/2021:  16:19:24


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 


I notice you are missing a few, both the m6 and dim4, only list 1-2, but have 2-3 and 3-4 possibilities. And missed the 4-1 Maj 2nd.



 






Yes, I failed to include all possible fingerings. And I forgot to include the Maj 2nd and the Min 2nd. And Dim 4 is a mistake, it should be Aug 4/Dim 5.



I will revise my diagram some day and maybe include the open string double stops also, but I hope the general idea gets across that there really aren't too many double stop shapes to contend with. Of course it is imperative to have a basic knowledge of scale and arpeggio structures so that these double stops can be played incontext. 

Quincy - Posted - 05/23/2021:  23:26:03


Wow, you people have been so helpful! I love this hangout :-)
I need to go to my parents' place to have this topic printed out today.
Special thanks to buckhenry, I am a very visually oriented , so I will certainly use your diagram :D
Yesterday the violin teacher said it won't hurt if I already started practising double stops and she gave me an exercise out of her Carl Flesch bible . She confirmed it's a bit early , but added that she thinks I can handle this. We also studied a YouTube lady explaining about double stops for the tune Golden Slippers , started on an open A-string and that's one of my tasks for next classes.
@groundhogpeggy: your answer made me laugh :-p I guess I am going that way also hahaha: figure out some stuff and forget it again a bit later.

Quincy - Posted - 05/27/2021:  15:50:06


Double stops ... so far I am already happy I can play fingers on the underlying string while bowing also on the upper string.



I hear something I really like now (and I love the violin my mother gave me so much ... I don't think I ever want another violin <3)



It starts to sound more 'real' :D 


Edited by - Quincy on 05/27/2021 16:00:08


groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/27/2021:  16:20:48


Sounds great...very good intonation!

Quincy - Posted - 05/27/2021:  16:24:47


Thank you!  I really like the effect of this. So far I was limited to fingers on upper string, bowing also on the string below.


Edited by - Quincy on 05/27/2021 16:25:02

buckhenry - Posted - 05/27/2021:  16:31:03


Try to play twinkle-twinkle with those double stops.

Quincy - Posted - 05/27/2021:  16:35:14


buckhenry, I will! I'm still living in fiddle paradise, with the house of the landlord next to my appartment all empty hehe.

It's 1.36 now, but I'm dying to find out.


Edited by - Quincy on 05/27/2021 16:35:26

Heady - Posted - 05/28/2021:  15:57:23


I read you're new to the instrument (within a year), so I'm not sure what level would be appropriate, but I use a version of this book to work on my intonation. Intonation is my Achilles' heel, and playing 2 notes at a time helps me work on hearing when I'm in tune with myself.

amazon.com/Double-Stop-Beginni...615971393

goatberry_jam - Posted - 08/19/2021:  22:22:59


@Quincy



I highly recommend a mandolin book. the instrument itself is a useful diagram for violin notes, as will be the diagrams and tablature in a book that explains it. You may find Mandolin Road Maps particularly useful for this

Peghead - Posted - 08/21/2021:  13:36:57


The 1, 3, 5 arpeggio will lead your fingers directly to all the notes of the (major) double stops. You'll need to use your pinky to get all the combinations, more so as you go around the circle away from the common fiddle keys. It's good practice to do that. The 1, 5 double stop is a bar. Knock yourselves out.

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