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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: 3-2-1-2 Bowing


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/55267

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/21/2021:  19:41:23


What are your thoughts on this bowing pattern? Do you know of anybody who uses it a lot?




  • 3-2-1-2

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/22/2021:  04:50:19


I just tried it on a couple of tunes... It works well, but seems a little foreign to me since I've not done it before.. Interesting pattern..

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/22/2021:  09:08:35


How are you using it, Mr. Soppinthe gravy?

Mobob - Posted - 05/22/2021:  10:28:13


would work well for some slip jigs.

Hector - Posted - 05/23/2021:  04:05:40


For me, it all depends on what the left hand is doing at the time. I might use something similar for a bar or so if I'm throwing in some syncopation. Sometimes it works and other times it sounds clunky.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/24/2021:  12:56:40


I don't use it a lot. I've been messing around with playing "Diamond Joe" using it.


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

How are you using it, Mr. Soppinthe gravy?






 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/24/2021:  15:30:35


I don't think much in terms of bowing patterns; just more in accent, phrasing, grouping, and flow. To which changing bow direction can be one way to control accent, phrasing. (but there are others)



With that, seems it would be similar to a 3-3-2 accent feel which is fairly common.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/24/2021:  15:33:20


quote:

Originally posted by Mobob

would work well for some slip jigs.






Doesn't have enough, it only adds up to 8; a slip jig would need equivalent of 9.

Mobob - Posted - 05/24/2021:  19:20:35


yes, nine beats per measure, can be many different combinations of 1/4 notes, half notes etc, bowed as one chooses.

RichJ - Posted - 05/25/2021:  07:33:10


OK, I'll be the first on this thread to ask... what the heck do you mean by a 3-2-1-2 bowing pattern? There was a guy who used to post a lot on FHO 7 or 8 years ago. I think his name was Fiddlepogo. He used terminology like this all the time. I was just starting to play the fiddle back then and had no idea what he was talking about. Well, I still have no idea what it means. Sorry for being so stupid, can someone help me understand?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/25/2021:  07:58:13


It's a formula of when to change bow directions... generally as a measure described in eight note equivalent durations.



3 down, 2 up, 1 down, 2 up.

RichJ - Posted - 05/25/2021:  08:05:02


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

It's a formula of when to change bow directions... generally as a measure described in eight note equivalent durations.



3 down, 2 up, 1 down, 2 up.






OK, thanks. Does this notation always start with a down bow? How would you use it for the Nashville shuffle?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/25/2021:  13:17:22


Nashville Shuffle is  2-1-1-2-1-1.



I don't use bowing pattern approach; so can't say if always start with down bow. But my guess is starting with an up would still have to be described by the same numbers.



As well,  can't say if numbers always describes from POV of the meter; or if some might describe from POV of phrase, which would start with pickup notes.



If bowing pattern path is what you are after, member Dave Reiner might be good resource, he posted a list.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/25/2021 13:30:35

RichJ - Posted - 05/25/2021:  15:15:50


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Nashville Shuffle is  2-1-1-2-1-1.



I don't use bowing pattern approach; so can't say if always start with down bow. But my guess is starting with an up would still have to be described by the same numbers.



As well,  can't say if numbers always describes from POV of the meter; or if some might describe from POV of phrase, which would start with pickup notes.



If bowing pattern path is what you are after, member Dave Reiner might be good resource, he posted a list.






Agree with you Dave Reiner, in his book "Fiddling Across America"  has one of the best explanations of bowing patterns ... IF you happen to read standard notaion (I can). However, in a conversation I recently had with another FHO member on the NS I recall them saying the up/down part of the way they played the a NS was very quick, kind of a liltle catapult that launched the slower up or down part of the shuffle. If played that way I don't think the timing of each part of their  NS would work out as showin in the bowing diagrams we are talking about in this thread.



Only saying this as my own very simply, and likely wrong view of the subject. Don't want to start any bowing war cuz' I know this is a very sensitive topic.



   

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/25/2021:  18:27:37


I think catapult was my word...oh my word! Or could've been coincidentally somebody else's word too, but for a fact I recall saying catapult. I can't say this catapulting of the two short bow strokes is quicker than the long strokes...and the long strokes are equal to two catapults, timing-wise...but the reason I call them catapults is because even though the timing is there, the emphasis is just not...let me try to 'splain myself...you have a 2-beat long, followed by 2 beats short, then do that again and again...the beats are the same...BUT the 2 short strokes are insignificant and barely there at all, functioning to catapult the long strokes. The timing is equal, but the emphasis is not. So...instead of DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN UP, etc., it's more like DOWN (updown) UP (downup), or even more like DOWN!!! (u d) UP!!! (d u)...It's hard to talk about...the timing is equally...2 beats on a long, 2 separate beat-strokes, 2 beats on a long, etc., etc., etc., but when each note is exactly the same, there is no groove that gets going. Probably makes no sense...lol...I know what I mean but it's hard to say in words.  I don't read notation on fiddle, but even if a person did, I really don't think the groove of bowing could be expressed in that way either.


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 05/25/2021 18:30:19

RichJ - Posted - 05/26/2021:  03:50:13


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I think catapult was my word...oh my word! Or could've been coincidentally somebody else's word too, but for a fact I recall saying catapult. I can't say this catapulting of the two short bow strokes is quicker than the long strokes...and the long strokes are equal to two catapults, timing-wise...but the reason I call them catapults is because even though the timing is there, the emphasis is just not...let me try to 'splain myself...you have a 2-beat long, followed by 2 beats short, then do that again and again...the beats are the same...BUT the 2 short strokes are insignificant and barely there at all, functioning to catapult the long strokes. The timing is equal, but the emphasis is not. So...instead of DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN UP, etc., it's more like DOWN (updown) UP (downup), or even more like DOWN!!! (u d) UP!!! (d u)...It's hard to talk about...the timing is equally...2 beats on a long, 2 separate beat-strokes, 2 beats on a long, etc., etc., etc., but when each note is exactly the same, there is no groove that gets going. Probably makes no sense...lol...I know what I mean but it's hard to say in words.  I don't read notation on fiddle, but even if a person did, I really don't think the groove of bowing could be expressed in that way either.






Well Peggy, now that you put your dog in the race I guess the cat is out of the bag. Yes indeed, "catapult" was your word and it was in our zoom conversation a few weeks back. Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding and clarifying the timing stuff on the NS. It is a hard subject to talk about but every little bit helps. Because it's more a feeling than anything else, the subjet of "groove" or "drive" as applied to music is difficult to put into words.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/26/2021:  04:37:13


Lol...yeah it's hard to talk about. Dwight Diller made a whole video on the same idea with clawhammer, Just Rhythm...and he managed to illustrate the idea, same idea but he did that on clawhammer, but managed to parse it all out so well...then, I'm pretty sure that video is out of print. Big shame.  I think that video would help clarify the whole idea for a lot of both clawhammer people and Nashville Shuffle people...although, well, as you know, Dwight might have an issue with the N. Shuffle part...lol.


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 05/26/2021 04:39:28

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/26/2021:  05:10:52


Your "catapult" explanation illustrates why a player can have years under their belt and still sound like a beginner. That person hasn't internalized the difference between L S S L S S (long short short) and L ss L ss
The notes are not even/precise and exact as written, more like a tiny bit of swing. When they are played evenly and exact, there is no "life" or as the Irish say, "lift" to the music. It is stiff.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/26/2021:  05:45:49


This is interesting.. I took down my wall hanger fiddle and tried to do the 3212 a little and see what I could accomplish..then, played with the Nashville..
IMO, the Nashville shuffle really sounds neat if the 'shuffle' is caused by having either One or both of the short notes being played a little more quietly along with a drone..I'll usually play two strings just on the First short note..That give a great off beat.. It is accomplished not by dropping my bow to pick up that second string but rather by putting downward pressure on the bow hair ever so slightly to catch that second string..Make sense? On the 3212, the first 2 could get that 'shuffle' sound if played properly..

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/26/2021:  09:08:52


Sounds like you're talking about "Rocking the bow," Lee...is that right? Rich, exactly...thanks for coming up with the right words...lol.

Here was my horrifying attempt to say it on video...lol. youtu.be/P6ABbP-cXi0

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/26/2021:  12:12:54


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Sounds like you're talking about "Rocking the bow," Lee...is that right? Rich, exactly...thanks for coming up with the right words...lol.



Here was my horrifying attempt to say it on video...lol. youtu.be/P6ABbP-cXi0






No, Peggy, Not at all like rocking the bow.. What I'm doing is a downward pulse that I call "Kissing the strings with the bow"... When done right  it is almost imperceptible....Frankly, I'm the only fiddler who I know personally who does this.. I have read about it but have not yet other fiddlers who do it.. It can be heard in some of my shared tunes.. I've been meaning to start a topic about the versatility of the 2-1-1 bowing pattern.. It can be used for more than just a shuffle...but ...just too lazy.



 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/26/2021:  16:03:11


Well that's interesting. Is that something that just automatically emerged in your playing, or did you set out to learn to do it at some point? I'd like to hear it...if possible.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/26/2021:  16:19:20


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Well that's interesting. Is that something that just automatically emerged in your playing, or did you set out to learn to do it at some point? I'd like to hear it...if possible.






If you listen carefully, you can hear it on my tune list in the tune Camp Meeting On The Fourth Of July..I'm afraid we are getting off topic... so I won't post it here.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/26/2021:  18:20:55


Thanks, I did listen, but couldn't make out what I was listening for...lol.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/26/2021:  18:21:20


oh, and by the way, that was some nice fiddling!

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