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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: What do you know about reverb?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/53909

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/11/2020:  04:17:27


Well...what do you know about it?  In 500 words or more...


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/11/2020 04:19:08

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/11/2020:  04:29:41


A little goes a long way.

DougD - Posted - 08/11/2020:  05:11:21


When you posted that you'd "discovered" it I felt a little frightened.
I've given you a few recording tips before, but I don't know if they were helpful. I was going to mention a few more in your thread about starting again, but I'm not sure you're after the same thing. Here are a couple recordings I made quite a few years ago. They are not multitrack - they are live to two track digital, but recorded in a living room with no edits or overdubs.

This was a long time ago, but still seems timely: youtu.be/9XwJ6AghLIw

Here's one from Jean Ritchie that I think you know:
youtu.be/h2f0cSCuXew
What do you think?

Johnbow - Posted - 08/11/2020:  06:43:04


I think ChickenMan virtually said it all.

It is a natural effect. Some rooms have it and some don’t. If you’re in a room that doesn’t, adding a little bit sounds good. One questions is whether you should inform your listener that it’s been added during the recording process.

ChinnRest - Posted - 08/11/2020:  07:05:57


I love playing in the bathroom or the entry foyer with the hardwood floor.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/11/2020:  07:57:07


Reverb is fairly normal in how we experience sound; sound reflects off walls, ceilings and other objects; those many reflections come back to our ears with slight delays and left/right ear differently. Each room sounds different...  size,  hardness of surfaces, and different distances and angles; kitchen, living room, bathroom, hall, cathedral...



Should note that can record with natural reverb, mic set up already captures the roomy sound on the recording. However, you are kind of stuck with that if not sound desired. The recording process, often tries to get a clean controlled sound, more direct  sound or close miking; isolation; or minimizes the effect of the room sound and unwanted reflections, room is somewhat acoustically dead.  But as above, can be a bit of dry and unnatural to many ears used to hearing live sound in a room. So the typical goal is adding back a little reverb can give it life; livelier, fill out the space; can also used to help with a bit of stereo effect;  give the illusion the of playing in room.



Different types and ways of adding reverb (and stereo). Most plugins have different settings allow you to thus control aspects of illusion of type/size of room. FWIW, if a good sounding room, one technique is add a room mic, separate track to mix in later. The type and amount is a matter of what you want it to sound like. It is easy to overdo it... sound a little unnatural, muddy, or overdone. Many go by the idea listener shouldn't really notice the reverb (or stereo), not stand out.



Of course the assumption is to make it sound natural... but artificial can be used as special effect (like distortion, flanging, phase shift).

BR5-49 - Posted - 08/11/2020:  08:15:21


Reverb is used often with fiddle recordings since studios are mostly sound proof and sterile. Reverb is all over most professional fiddle/violin recordings. As are many production effects. I was listening to one well known old time fiddler (considered traditional) in head phones recently and there was reverb and wah-wah in the mix. But the result in regular speaker listening from a distance was a "natural" fiddle sound.


Edited by - BR5-49 on 08/11/2020 08:23:22

DougD - Posted - 08/11/2020:  08:26:39


Wah-wah? I'd expect some artificial reverb, but not wah. I'd like to hear that, Shawn.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/11/2020:  10:00:00


Wah-wah might be an artifact, from multiple mics, or doubling... or natural reverb in a room (a reason to opt for sterile dry sound is unwanted artifacts). Signals can get out of phase, comb filtering.  Could be introduced from effects processing like reverb or stereo. 



It is kind of interesting the amount of work and artificial effects and mix tweaking that engineers sometimes have to put into making acoustic sources give illusion of "natural" acoustic sound (and not produced). But without it, the sound can seem oddly rather unnatural.



BTW - I was watching some video that was pointing out aspects of production techniques, effects and mixing over decades... and how some, while seemed improvement at the time, now actually sound noticeably dated (i.e. there was a 70's sound; 80s sound). Others have stood the test of time much better.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/11/2020 10:08:07

DougD - Posted - 08/11/2020:  10:19:53


My father was a broadcasting engineer, starting with CBS radio in NY in the 1930's, and through him, and some of his contacts at Columbia records, I learned quite a bit about techniques and how they've evolved over time. Studio design itself has changed through the years along with musical styles and recording methods.
Some things seem almost timeless though. I was just reading about the eight underground "echo chambers" at Capitol records in Hollywood, designed by Les Paul, that are still considered the best in the world. If I had an EMT plate reverb at my disposal I'd be glad to use it. And some of the old microphones are still highly sought after.
Here's a brief history of artificial reverb that covers a lot: wikiaudio.org/emt-140-plate-reverb/


Edited by - DougD on 08/11/2020 10:32:04

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/11/2020:  10:30:51


quote:

Originally posted by DougD



I've given you a few recording tips before, but I don't know if they were helpful. I was going to mention a few more...

 






I, and probably others, would be interested in hearing your tips, or thoughts on recording... especially as might pertain to DIY home studio folks. 



One discussion I have, similar to reverb, related to sounding fuller; if you've ever used doubling on fiddle? And if so what you think of that technique? I know many folks use it for vocals to make the sound fuller of bigger... and I don't notice it as unnatural.  



Another question is if you ever big room and use a room mic... thoughts about that?


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/11/2020 10:34:38

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/11/2020:  11:25:34


I'm too stupid to understand half of the above. I thought maybe reverb might make my recordings smoother...help cover vocal flaws or fiddling fumbles and such...just make them melt together smoother. I know my presonus can do all sorts of tricks and stuff, but I'm so non-technical I really don't even feel like learning. But I'll make a long story short (for once in my life!). My daughter came over to sing something and set reverb for her singing...I was like...oh...it's THAT easy, hey???? So I recorded something...I think I linked it here and cannot remember what it was...oh I think it was Black Eyed Susie...with that same reverb that she had for her singing. Ok...well, I wasn't sure, but thought it might be good to play around with and learn.

So then, after that, I recorded Golden Slippers...and had to find that reverb and set it up on my own...what a nightmare. To me, the echo of the reverb sounds louder than the actual tones coming from the fiddle itself...it's really muddy and horrible sounding. I went ahead and put it up onto youtube anyhow...I tried to take the reverb off and could NOT for the life of me figure out how to get it off of there...then of course I deleted that file...lol...another bad habit of mine, because then I can't go in and fix anyting...have to just go do it over again.

So there...that's all I know. I think I'm about done with "effects." The room I record in is always either humid and hot/stuffy or damp and freezing...seems there's no natural reverb...the sounds are thuddy that happen in that room. Except when the dogs bark, then there's a nice ring to their little voices...lol.

So I thought maybe I could add a more studio effect, but I'm thinking, no...maybe it's not worth it. If I could succeed, it would take me 5 years of experimenting.

As to double up on the tracks...if I understand what you mean...yes, I do that. I double the vocal tracks and set one at a lower level than the other...otherwise I feel like the vocal gets drowned out...I don't record two separate singing tracks, just duplicate one and set the volume lower so that the vocal doesn't drown out.

Another thing I often do is double on the fiddle track the same way...then I take the louder one off in places where I'm singing, keep it in places where the fiddle comes back in. I used to just try to scoot away from the mic or try to fiddle lighter during the singing...but eventually I accidentally stumbled onto duplicating tracks and discovered if they are duplicated they are twice as loud (duh, but for me it was a big discovery), and so I set one lower and then go through and adjust volumes with each other by deleting either the lower set one or the hgiher one, bewteen the fiddle and voice... or if it's banjo or whatever, between the banjo and voice. This is easier than trying to scoot out from the mic because I've noticed my chair is very noisy...squeaky if you move at all...and if you scoot back in it it really makes a racket and can ruin a recording. And playing light right there where you were is kinda tricky too.

But that's my whole bag of tricks, I guess...just accidentally discovering that way to adjust volumes so that one groundhog can be heard over the others at various times during the recordings. It hasn't been that long ago that I discovered that.

I also make a scratch track of guitar just going through the song in my head with the metronome...like an obedient robot to that metronome...just because I can't play with a metronome...so I get that scratch track going...then turn off that annoying metronome and start putting tracks on with the scratch track as a guide...then after a couple of real tracks can delete the scratch track and go from there. I learned that from the Bluegrass Band I was in for a few years...that's something like how they recorded stuff and it made sense to me, although I do it slightly different than they did.

That's it...that's my bag of low-tech tricks. I don't think I should go for anything more involved than that.

Old Scratch - Posted - 08/11/2020:  13:38:24


There's no need to go any further with it than you feel like. The sound-quality of your recordings so far is fine for youtube. Bear in mind that the guys - and it is mostly guys - who really get into the technical ends of music stuff do so because they enjoy the whole process, for the most part. Think of the number of guys who start out learning fiddle, then in a natural way learn how to do some repairs and tweaks, and next thing you know, their real passion is building fiddles and they only ever play to try out a fiddle they're working on. Same thing with recording - if learning more about it gives you some satisfaction and enjoyment, go for it, but if it's all just a big pain, there's no need to give yourself the aggravation. IMHO.

boxbow - Posted - 08/11/2020:  14:45:42


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Wah-wah might be an artifact, from multiple mics, or doubling... or natural reverb in a room (a reason to opt for sterile dry sound is unwanted artifacts). Signals can get out of phase, comb filtering.  Could be introduced from effects processing like reverb or stereo. 



It is kind of interesting the amount of work and artificial effects and mix tweaking that engineers sometimes have to put into making acoustic sources give illusion of "natural" acoustic sound (and not produced). But without it, the sound can seem oddly rather unnatural.



BTW - I was watching some video that was pointing out aspects of production techniques, effects and mixing over decades... and how some, while seemed improvement at the time, now actually sound noticeably dated (i.e. there was a 70's sound; 80s sound). Others have stood the test of time much better.






I can't think of any specific examples at the moment, but it seems that some remastered recordings of 70's rock often has the bass jacked up to more modern standards of pop music.  Kind of reminds me of when they used to play a recording of a Beethoven piece with a disco beat overlay.  A low point even for disco.

ChinnRest - Posted - 08/11/2020:  15:09:44


There is a rock producer, Rick Beato, who has a great series on YouTube. The music choices definitely don't fit this forum at all. However, he does a wonderful job of explaining and breaking down how producers and bands got the sound they got in a song - what instrument, what type of reverb/effects, what scale modes to achieve the mood.



Again, it's not fiddle, old time, bluegrass, etc, but he is very good at explaining the musical process for the music it is.


Edited by - ChinnRest on 08/11/2020 15:10:33

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/11/2020:  17:14:58


Old Scratch, your post is good sense...that helps.

Old Scratch - Posted - 08/11/2020:  22:22:36


Anything for a lady, it's a weakness of mine ... I may have mentioned that before ... !

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/12/2020:  05:45:56


I think I'm just ditching the whole idea. No more reverb. No more curiosity about the bells and whistles...I don't wanna destroy all the fun I've had recording, ironically enough, by trying to really learn how to do it...lol. Just gonna continue on my happy way.

DougD - Posted - 08/13/2020:  05:38:06


Peggy, why don't you just ask your daughter to show you how to do this? She apparently knows how, and is familiar with the prgram you're using, which none of us are. Plus she knows you and probably can easily explain it. Its not really very hard. Also there's probably a manual of some sort, or at least a help file that explains the controls. And probably some tutorials on YouTube.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2020:  14:57:26


Doug, that might be a good idea...I don't know how she knows...lol. I'm already feeling exhausted with the technological effort it might take. The reverb has a little picture of a "room," with dimensions you have to set, stuff i never heard of and have no idea what it is you have to set, then a lot of other controls, plus then the name of the room..."parking garage, cathedral, small studio," etc., etc., etc. I mean...there's so much stuff you have to choose...then if you put it onto a track, it seems like you can't ever take it back off again...at least to me. Maybe daughter knows somehow...but I'll just let her fiddle with it with her singing and I'll just hang it up for my own stuff. Right at the moment she has me making tracks for something she's planning to video, and the chords are tough to figure out...lol...they just don't work out good on the guitar in the key she wants to sing in, etc. So...I gotta get that stuff recorded for her and let her record her voice on them. Her own presonus wasn't working, so she has to come here an use mine...that's how I found out she knows about reverb and all that. Anyway, I think I've had enough reverb...lol...it was easier for me when I didn't know anything.



Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to respond to my agonizing question...lol...I appreciate that.  


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/13/2020 14:59:19

DougD - Posted - 08/13/2020:  16:26:31


Peggy, I don't know what program you're using, but usually if you just select a preset like small hall, medium hall, or maybe "vocal plate" it will take care of everything else. Then you might want to play with the "reverb time" or "decay time" - that's the length of time it takes for the reverb to tail off to some small value. 1 to maybe 2.5 seconds would be a place to start.
You wouldn't usually add it to a track. You would send some of that track to the reverb, and then return the reverb signal to the mix, where its added. That way you can try it different ways and see what you like. In the days of analog recorders and mixing consoles this was pretty easy to do, but in some of these programs its a little complicated to set up the signal path. But once you get it, it can stay that way.


Edited by - DougD on 08/13/2020 16:29:30

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2020:  17:20:23


Doug, I just wrote a big ol' thing back and then hit an add by mistake so it's all gone to cyberspacial trash I guess. Anyway...in a nutshell this time...Annie did it backwards from the way you describe. Wondering if reverb is just bad news on something as affordable as a presonus...like maybe you need something bigger and more professional to make it sound right.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2020:  17:22:29


Oh and I think the program for "effects" that goes with the Studio One software is called Melodyne or something like that...I've never used it. When She did her opera and had no male singers, she was trying to use that to drop her vocals down an octave and do the male parts, but she couldn't make it work...but I think all that kinda stuff is Melodyne...whatever that is.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2020:  17:47:35


Well I just watched the first few minutes of about one in fifty tutorial youtubes on working with Studio One and Melodyne...boy do I feel stupid now. I did not understand one word or one concept, and started even feeling like I'm an idiot for trying to record myself in the first place. I'm just not up for it, I think. Ugh...I don't know what's going on at all.

DougD - Posted - 08/13/2020:  17:53:03


Peggy, not sure what you mean by "backwards?" Do you mean she actually added it to the track? You would very seldom want to do that, because then you're stuck with it.
I know you call your whole system the "Presonus," but that's really just the physical box - the interface between the microphone (or instrument) and the computer. It can work with a lot of different DAW (Desktop Audio Workstation) programs. The reverb is part of the program, not the interface.
Edit - OK, I see that you have Studio One, which is actually a Presonus product, and what they are currently supplying (maybe a newer version than what you have).
Forget Melodyne for now. Here are the reverbs in Studio One (the full version). s1manual.presonus.com/Content/...everb.htm Does yours look like any of these?


Edited by - DougD on 08/13/2020 18:01:56

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2020:  20:23:56


Yes, she added it to the track from the Melodyne effects...dragged that over there and the little toy room picture popped up and then she just messed with settings a whole bunch.
I've never seen anything looking like that link you shared...I guess it's there somewhere on whatever it is I'm looking at when I record...Presonus, Studio One...lol...I never did understand all of that. It's probalby somewhere that I've never clicked on yet. The Melodyne thing is always visible on the right side of the screen whenever I record...normally I just ignore the whole mess...but she dragged it on over and started clicking...it's almost affected me like getting the knowledge of good and evil for the first time...lol...I wish I would never have witnessed that moment! I was happier just being ignorant about all of that.

DougD - Posted - 08/14/2020:  06:28:22


Peggy, I had to look this up. Melodyne is a third party vocal pitch correction program, not a reverb or other effect. A trial version is bundled with the version of Studio One that comes with Presonus interfaces, with the option to purchase a license. If you didn't do that it probably doesn't do anything - it must have been a coincidence that Annie got to the reverb by dragging it - something else must have happened. I'm sure there are at least one or two reverbs as part of the built in effects, but maybe earlier versions than the ones on the page I linked.
Somewhere there is a drop down "Help" menu and you can access the manual by selecting "Reference Manual" or "Contents" (if you installed it). If you can't find it, here's the one for Studio One 4.5, probably a newer version than what you have. s1manual.presonus.com/Content/...ction.htm I can see the reverbs, but not how to access them.
That's about all I know. I'm interested in this partly because my sister is considering getting an interface and I'm trying to help her choose. I'm not really interested in multitrack recording, especially on a computer. I have a Presonus Firepod eight channel interface and Cubase Studio, which actually came with a Yamaha two channel interface, more like your Presonus. I finally got the hang of Cubase, but I haven't used any of it very much.
Just got an email from my sister. Better go see what she's up to.
Good luck!

DougD - Posted - 08/14/2020:  10:27:56


Peggy, here's a detailed video on how to use reverb in Studio One 3.5 m.youtube.com/watch?v=r89ABmOUOCs
If you search for "reverb in studio one artist" you'll find lots more info.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/14/2020:  16:02:54


quote:

Originally posted by Old Scratch

There's no need to go any further with it than you feel like. The sound-quality of your recordings so far is fine for youtube.






 



I don't think that has been any part of the discussion.



"fine for youtube" not sure what that means? Youtube is just a method of delivery, for musician to listener. I'm pretty sure there is no criteria or approval board, vetting... for you tube, or any of these social media. Anybody can put up whatever... it's up to the musician to decide sound quality they want, or how far to go.



Peggy asked, wanted to know about reverb. As many Home/Project recording folks do, it's one of the most common tools/aspects used for the mixing in how it sounds.



quote:

Originally posted by Old Scratch

Bear in mind that the guys - and it is mostly guys - who really get into the technical ends of music stuff do so because they enjoy the whole process, for the most part. Think of the number of guys who start out learning fiddle, then in a natural way learn how to do some repairs and tweaks, and next thing you know, their real passion is building fiddles and they only ever play to try out a fiddle they're working on. Same thing with recording - if learning more about it gives you some satisfaction and enjoyment, go for it, but if it's all just a big pain, there's no need to give yourself the aggravation. IMHO.






Not sure who or what you are specifically talking about... NOT most folks I know. Home/Project recording is just an extension of music making, gender makes no difference.



Not about whether they enjoy the process; many find various aspect frustrating, pain... but that it's a means to an end. They have ideas or goal in mind, about qualities they want their music to sound. Like any other part of making music, learning to use tools or techniques simply gives them choices and better control in decisions to the sound.



 

Old Scratch - Posted - 08/14/2020:  16:23:44


Okay.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/14/2020:  18:52:11


Well I had a conversation the other day where it was postulated that reverb, like the presonus itself, is probably a stretch for old time fiddling...although you do need the presonus if you don't have a place to play...something to that effect. Need the presonus because I have no place to play...don't need the reverb because, yeah, it probably is taking what I try to play to a place where it really doesn't need to go, maybe. You know...like i was saying...minus the knowledge of good and evil we are all innocent happy critters...bam, you learn that and then you go nuts...lol. Not a good analogy, I guess, reverb and evil...lol...no, it's not the evil, but I mean just knowing it exists or the happiness of not knowing it's even there...but I do think maybe I'm out of my league in thinking about that.



I do appreciate all the help and answers, though. There might be a time when I find myself in need of knowing it...probably if I'm doing something for somebody else or something like that.



At the moment, I'm still struggling to get some tracks my daughter wants done so she can sing with them for her project. I'll let her worry about her own reverb...lol...she's the one who showed it to me, so she obviously knows more than I do. I think I'm done with it for myself. Again, I appreciate the help and comments.


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/14/2020 18:53:57

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/15/2020:  11:59:10


What do I know about reverb (about reverb reverb)? It's a complex echo (ex echo echo echo). If I overuse it (overuse use it it it it), then it makes my recording sound really fake (really fake fake fake fake). But a little doesn't hurt (hurt), does it (it)?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/16/2020:  05:41:58


The thought hit me today (day day day day) to play Yew Piney Mt only fiddle only (lee lee lee lee tune weaver er er) and to use reverb (verb noun adjective adverb) to sound like I'm out in the lonesome holler (er er uh um er uh)...but I probably won't because I can control the sound (ound pound ol' hound)...so...no no no no no.


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/16/2020 05:45:32

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/16/2020:  05:44:51


I meant "can't" (ant aunt ain't etc etc etc)

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/16/2020:  12:05:17


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

Peggy, not sure what you mean by "backwards?" Do you mean she actually added it to the track? You would very seldom want to do that, because then you're stuck with it.

 






I think her concept/description was mistaken.



.then if you put it onto a track, it seems like you can't ever take it back off again...at least to me.



These are inserts into the channel strip and typically nondestructive editing, mixing; completely changeable and mixable. These don't change the actual recording at all.  Just creating an insert (or as effects send)... the sound is just routed thru processor/effects same as if it were an external unit. So can go ahead and play with knobs see what they do.



Most DAWs use similar "insert" as also common how you would add other process... like EQ, (maybe more important tool than reverb)... or Compression, Limiter, Stereo/spatial simulators (as well as many other useful tools like de-esser, notch filter...)



it sounds like she is using the "Room Reverb" probably a good choice to start for folks... precisely because it gives a bit of visual idea of room... and has simple to use presets "the name of room"... can use it as if in basic mode...  just ignore most the other settings as if not there. (no need to know or touch all other settings). That and the dry/wet knob is a place to start. (or end).



Room dimension is just another way to give an idea... how big room. dimension is just another way to give an idea... how big room. 



Your link youtube.com/watch?v=r89ABmOUOCs covers general concepts fairly well; The one thing points out is how most DIY folks learn learn what things do... just play with the settings, turn knobs and listen. That is, don't need to know the physics, math, numbers, milliseconds... techhy stuff... or worry about getting hung on analyzing all the details...  just play and listen. 



EQ is another great tool for home DIYer to start using... as they probably have limits of getting good tone input. Not difficult and can make a big difference.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/16/2020:  12:37:24


quote:

Originally posted by DougD



I'm interested in this partly because my sister is considering getting an interface and I'm trying to help her choose. I'm not really interested in multitrack recording, especially on a computer. I have a Presonus Firepod eight channel interface and Cubase Studio, which actually came with a Yamaha two channel interface, more like your Presonus. I finally got the hang of Cubase, but I haven't used any of it very much.

Just got an email from my sister. Better go see what she's up to.

Good luck!






Technology and low costs have opened up a whole bunch of possibilities for folks. These DAWs, like most technology, IMO despite the initial intimidation (lots of bells and whistles) overall actually make many aspects less frustration and pain. (esp compared to analogue tape). Even basic functions. The editing and mixing, using automation; being able to save presets.



They have other uses than just making a CD or such. I like to use it for composing and arrangement ideas and band practice. For me it's often easier to just rough record my ideas for the others parts, put in context... than try to explain. I don't usually use reverb or much any effects for these, as the purpose isn't for an public audience. We can send each other individual tracks (great since COVID).



I mostly use Ardour, but been playing with Cakewalk... which is now a free download... you might want to check out for your sister. it has most of the same features of any other DAW; I like the user interface and it some interesting tools like a matrix, for creating part samples and loops; and generating backing tracks. 



Oh, yeah... these advancements have opened a whole world for musicians and songwriters, that really lacked budget or experience  of professional studio and engineers. Not a replacement for studios, and good engineers... but the home project folks can get a pretty good result with minimum equipment or experience. 


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/16/2020 12:43:55

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/16/2020:  19:12:01


I guess i probably won't ever get the techie parts down. I'm not a high tech person, really...I mean, it's I I even have computers at all, and probably wouldn't if I hadn't been forced to learn to use stuff like that where I worked. Never would have wandered that way on my own.

I do love my own ignorant (lol...not insulting myself, just saying i only know "record," and "export mixdown," that 's about it) multi track usage of it. I mean...well i haven't really had a fun place to play or jam or haven't know one person who likes the same kind of music, for years and years. So...now with the multi tracks I don't need anybody else, plus I've discovered a lot of fun to be had just by building the tracks...watching what-all develops with it. I especially have had fun making my own "choir," so to speak. Just singing a song and then building up harmonies as I go along...that is really fun. If I could think of more songs to do as a one-person choir, I would do them...I have trouble thinking of stuff like that to do, though.

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