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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: WHAT? Not my version??


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/53856

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/29/2020:  13:45:36


Has this ever happened to you? Well, it has happened to me Many times over the years.. I'm at a jam and play a tune that I know well and the other jam mates seem to like it also.. No, they don't ask me to teach the tune to them.. What they do is go online to find Slipperyhill versions or sheet music and learn Those versions of the tune.. Then when we jam together, they play the other versions...not mine.. ...It can be frustrating to me because my version, which I may have spent 20 years developing, suddenly is not the 'correct' version...and then I hesitate to call it because I know that others  will just think I'm playing it wrong..!!! go figure..


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 07/29/2020 14:11:05

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/29/2020:  14:29:12


If you don't supply a recording or sheet music you're probably expecting too much. I know I can't pick up all the nuances from a time or two at a jam.


Edited by - Brian Wood on 07/29/2020 14:29:38

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/29/2020:  14:39:53


quote:

Originally posted by Brian Wood

If you don't supply a recording or sheet music you're probably expecting too much. I know I can't pick up all the nuances from a time or two at a jam.






The problem is that there is a Pattern.. Sure I could supply sheet music or a recording,  and even offer to do so.... They even RECORD me playing.. then, STILL  learn a different version.. I'm NOT a bad fiddler.. It is frustrating.. I know that from time to time people will learn from others, but ALWAYS???



 

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:10:15


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Wood

If you don't supply a recording or sheet music you're probably expecting too much. I know I can't pick up all the nuances from a time or two at a jam.






The problem is that there is a Pattern.. Sure I could supply sheet music or a recording,  and even offer to do so.... They even RECORD me playing.. then, STILL  learn a different version.. I'm NOT a bad fiddler.. It is frustrating.. I know that from time to time people will learn from others, but ALWAYS???



 






That's a good point about them recording you. I don't have a smart phone and forget how easy that is for everybody. What's wrong with those numbskulls?

Fiddler - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:11:59


One of the joys of playing with others, especially with folks you don't normally play with, is to be able to adapt to another person's playing/version. Yes, it can be frustrating when someone "learns" a tune from you, then goes off and learns some one else's version.

One of the most rewarding experiences I have had playing was learning a tune from a mentor or friend, then coming back days, weeks, months, or years later to play it with them. I make an effort to play the tune exactly as they do. Seeing their smile and twinkle in their eye as we were playing was amazing!

Now, back to Lee's experience - this is my take. The people who learned your tune are caught up in the idea that the earliest recording is the "true" version and all others versions are null and void. These folks are self-centered novices. They know not what they do. Because of their lack of experience and sensitivity, they have no idea how to alter their playing such that it is in sync with yours. As their elder and mentor, you have showed them the way. Let them go.

Now, this brings me to a pet peeve - intense focus on the "correct" version of a tune. Using early commercial and field recordings is fine to inform your playing, but it should not define it. These recordings are merely a snapshot at how a tune was played by that individual at that particular time. Same with transcriptions! They are not definitive! Too many folks get locked into this concept.

For example, some think that Jerimiah Hogslop's 1933 field recording of 'Skunk in a Crockpot" is the "true" version. (This is Jeremiah Sr, patriarch of the Hogslop family of fiddlers - Jeremiah, Jr. and Jedediah are the most recognizable.) My version that I learned in Hog Holler in 1995 is JUST as valid as his. In fact, I play another tune that he recorded that year, "Boogers on the Pump Handle", with more interesting bowings than Jeremiah. (He was a Hogslop bower afterall!) My version is therefore, according to me, the TRUE version. So, get off my lawn!

I'm stepping off my soapbox and putting my feedbag on......

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:35:03


quote:

Originally posted by Fiddler

One of the joys of playing with others, especially with folks you don't normally play with, is to be able to adapt to another person's playing/version. Yes, it can be frustrating when someone "learns" a tune from you, then goes off and learns some one else's version.



One of the most rewarding experiences I have had playing was learning a tune from a mentor or friend, then coming back days, weeks, months, or years later to play it with them. I make an effort to play the tune exactly as they do. Seeing their smile and twinkle in their eye as we were playing was amazing!



Now, back to Lee's experience - this is my take. The people who learned your tune are caught up in the idea that the earliest recording is the "true" version and all others versions are null and void. These folks are self-centered novices. They know not what they do. Because of their lack of experience and sensitivity, they have no idea how to alter their playing such that it is in sync with yours. As their elder and mentor, you have showed them the way. Let them go.



Now, this brings me to a pet peeve - intense focus on the "correct" version of a tune. Using early commercial and field recordings is fine to inform your playing, but it should not define it. These recordings are merely a snapshot at how a tune was played by that individual at that particular time. Same with transcriptions! They are not definitive! Too many folks get locked into this concept.



For example, some think that Jerimiah Hogslop's 1933 field recording of 'Skunk in a Crockpot" is the "true" version. (This is Jeremiah Sr, patriarch of the Hogslop family of fiddlers - Jeremiah, Jr. and Jedediah are the most recognizable.) My version that I learned in Hog Holler in 1995 is JUST as valid as his. In fact, I play another tune that he recorded that year, "Boogers on the Pump Handle", with more interesting bowings than Jeremiah. (He was a Hogslop bower afterall!) My version is therefore, according to me, the TRUE version. So, get off my lawn!



I'm stepping off my soapbox and putting my feedbag on......






YEP.. the purist versions of tunes are really ok LOCALLY.. they better hang onto their hats if they go to a festival...!!  Every good fiddler has his/her own version of Every good old tune!!!..and if you are stuck into the  'original' version.. you may be left out.. BUT.. Many OT musicians have NEVER HEARD those field recordings.. So it goes both ways... No version is wrong.. but sometimes it seems to be so..

carlb - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:50:42


When ever I taught an individual a tune I always supply them with where I learned it from. They can then find their own path to tune, just as I have.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:51:20


I think we ought'a start settling these matters with bow fights. En garde!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:52:39


quote:

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

I think we ought'a start settling these matters with bow fights. En garde!






Yep.. Getting the tune is hard enough, but when you see that they are not bowing it right.. Ya jest wanna go nuts..!!!



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/29/2020:  15:54:07


quote:

Originally posted by carlb

When ever I taught an individual a tune I always supply them with where I learned it from. They can then find their own path to tune, just as I have.






That is not Usually possible for me since I learned many tunes 30-40 years ago.. I have NO idea where I learned a tune that far ago!!!

indianajones - Posted - 07/29/2020:  18:44:33


I think they should establish a federal agency for the regulation of fiddle tunes. Standardize the melodies and maybe bowing patterns, keys, tunnings, etc.. The Federal Fiddle Standards or FFS?

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/29/2020:  18:50:33


quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

I think they should establish a federal agency for the regulation of fiddle tunes. Standardize the melodies and maybe bowing patterns, keys, tunnings, etc.. The Federal Fiddle Standards or FFS?






Yeah, and require a license for anyone to play them.

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 07/29/2020:  19:01:20


quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

FFS?






LOLOL!

tonyelder - Posted - 07/29/2020:  19:12:18


quote:

Originally posted by carlb

When ever I taught an individual a tune I always supply them with where I learned it from. They can then find their own path to tune, just as I have.






That's what I did with all the tunes I unloaded here - most all (if not all) have Youtube links to the version I learned from, so you could hear where it came from and learn from them (not me) if you like it.



Did the same thing with a spreadsheet when I moved down - with with title, key, and links to almost every tune I play - so folks here would have the version that learned my tunes from.



Probably a bit presumptuous to think anyone would really be interested.  I don't know that it did any good. 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/29/2020:  19:33:45


But, that's why OT tunes are so simple, so players can pick them up quickly in just a couple of run throughs, and change from one version to another..?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/29/2020:  19:46:48


This thread is making me think of the comparison to Irish fiddling. Old Time is a very loose style of playing, and almost no one plays the same style (some of it is intentional, some is not). I do find that small groups that play together regularly tend to settle on the style of each tune, but if the jam is bigger or composed of unfamiliar players, the styles can really vary.

In the Irish fiddle style, there is a very strict rubric for playing a tune. If you go to a jam, all the players will be playing each tune in exactly the same way. Many of the jams are closed groups that can only be joined by invitation, and players who don’t follow along well are asked to leave. There is much more of a focus on preserving the music in the way it was composed and played originally. There are players who develop their own take on the repertoire, but they tend to be viewed as outcasts by traditional players. It’s a much more dogmatic approach, but it does eliminate some confusion.

I would say that when it comes to choosing the way a tune is to be played, a lot depends on who is in charge of the group. If there is a clear leader, the leader’s interpretation sets the standard. In groups that don’t have a leader, it comes down to the preference of the majority.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/29/2020:  20:17:39


quote:

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

This thread is making me think of the comparison to Irish fiddling. Old Time is a very loose style of playing, and almost no one plays the same style (some of it is intentional, some is not). I do find that small groups that play together regularly tend to settle on the style of each tune, but if the jam is bigger or composed of unfamiliar players, the styles can really vary.



In the Irish fiddle style, there is a very strict rubric for playing a tune. If you go to a jam, all the players will be playing each tune in exactly the same way. Many of the jams are closed groups that can only be joined by invitation, and players who don’t follow along well are asked to leave. There is much more of a focus on preserving the music in the way it was composed and played originally. There are players who develop their own take on the repertoire, but they tend to be viewed as outcasts by traditional players. It’s a much more dogmatic approach, but it does eliminate some confusion.



I would say that when it comes to choosing the way a tune is to be played, a lot depends on who is in charge of the group. If there is a clear leader, the leader’s interpretation sets the standard. In groups that don’t have a leader, it comes down to the preference of the majority.






I've found myself at a handful of Irish jams when I'd stupidly show up at my OT venues on the wrong evenings, or on a Saturday morning instead of a Sunday morning.  There were more Irish fiddlers at the venues than I ever saw at the OT jams.  One of those evenings, an Irish accented guy invited me to start  a tune.  I stumbled through a strongly OT-inflected Blarney Pilgrim.  BTW, I'm not gonna say that the Irish assemblages were any more strictly controlled than the OT ones.  They just seemed to know their tunes better, perhaps because Irish tunes tend to be written down, and a lot of the players do have the music in front of them. 

ChickenMan - Posted - 07/30/2020:  03:26:25


My experience is that Irish players play whatever version it is they play, not the oldest or source.

OT: I've met very few (two?) players who are interested in source recordings. And the source, even if it is old and scratchy, is often a more interesting version and the jam version has lost some corner bits in the (folk) process.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/30/2020:  05:24:08


quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

I think they should establish a federal agency for the regulation of fiddle tunes. Standardize the melodies and maybe bowing patterns, keys, tunnings, etc.. The Federal Fiddle Standards or FFS?






Where do I sign up?



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 07/30/2020:  05:30:24


Speaking of Irish jams... WHen I was a beginner I'd use O"Neill's large book of irish tunes to learn from....years later at a local Irish jam a jam Leader said that I'd probably not fit in because they didn't play out of O'Neil's book.....Can you imagine going to an OT jam and someone saying, "Sorry we only play from the Phillip's Collection"?

carlb - Posted - 07/30/2020:  07:50:18


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Speaking of Irish jams... WHen I was a beginner I'd use O"Neill's large book of irish tunes to learn from....years later at a local Irish jam a jam Leader said that I'd probably not fit in because they didn't play out of O'Neil's book.....






When I retired, about 14 years ago, I was going to play quite a few styles including Irish. I also had learned tunes from O'Neill's. However, the versions that the session played didn't seem to fit O'Neill's. I did collect names of tunes and started to look for other sources. The one I found that had versions closest to what they played in the sessions is "Cobb's Music of Ireland":

cobb.ece.wisc.edu/irish/Tunebook.html



At the time there was a mandolin web site that could change abc into music notation. I now have Cobb's, as notation, in multiple files according to type. That's the only way you can get regular notation now (i.e. from me), unless you already have a program that will convert abc to notation.

sbhikes2 - Posted - 08/08/2020:  21:01:06


Maybe I'm really sensitive to the subterranean interpersonal dynamics going on in a big jam, but in my experience, if you bring a tune to the jam and nobody picks it up right then and there, it's because they don't like the tune. I've brought many many tunes to the jam and once in a while I hit on a good one and then they are enthusiastic about it and ask me to play it a few more times so they can get it. They'll sometimes go off and try to learn it themselves, and if they play it a little differently, I don't mind. I'll revise and play it the way they do. But usually if they really like it they'll just ask me to start it again the next time.

I've sat and observed this jam for a very long time. On those occasions when we don't go around the circle and instead the tune starting process is a free-for-all, I've noticed that there are some people who start tunes that almost nobody will join in on. There are three main reasons for this: one is that the person tends to choose tunes nobody knows just to just show off, and another is that nobody likes this person and wishes they would just go away. This doesn't happen a lot, but I've seen it. The other common reason is that they person really cannot play and nobody can make out what the heck they are trying to do.

I have no idea if any of those is the dynamic going on for the OP, but I'd suggest that if people do seem to like the tune, email them a link to the source where you got it from or send a recording.

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