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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: What's Going On With the Time Signature


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/53482

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/16/2020:  13:35:13


What's going on with the time signature in this tune? youtube.com/watch?v=2a-_udQQ3is

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/16/2020:  13:47:20


I believe it's 4/4 time. The 4th bar it is 2/2. And second to last bar is 2/2. Just off the top of my head...

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/16/2020:  13:59:05


quote:

Originally posted by Brian Wood

I believe it's 4/4 time. The 4th bar it is 2/2. And second to last bar is 2/2. Just off the top of my head...






I meant 2/4 not 2/2.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/16/2020:  14:59:18


I tried to write it in 2/4, and there were pieces of it that appeared to go into 5/8, 3/4, and 11/16, but I'm probably doing it wrong. LOL!



(I'm trying to tag him, but it doesn't seem to be working.) @alaskafiddler



quote: Originally posted by Brian Wood



I believe it's 4/4 time. The 4th bar it is 2/2. And second to last bar is 2/2. Just off the top of my head...I meant 2/4 not 2/2.


Edited by - soppinthegravy on 05/16/2020 15:04:41

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/16/2020:  15:24:38


quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

I tried to write it in 2/4, and there were pieces of it that appeared to go into 5/8, 3/4, and 11/16, but I'm probably doing it wrong. LOL!



(I'm trying to tag him, but it doesn't seem to be working.) @alaskafiddler



quote: Originally posted by Brian Wood



I believe it's 4/4 time. The 4th bar it is 2/2. And second to last bar is 2/2. Just off the top of my head...I meant 2/4 not 2/2.






Likely it can be written in different ways. Finding the clearest way it the trick. I wouldn't be able to say much more unless I started to write it out myself. Interesting tune. Are you learning it?

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/16/2020:  17:06:37


I'm working on it, I guess. It's odd that she says this version comes from Middle Tennessee. She told me she learned it from Jim Wood and he heard it growing up in Hickman County. I've heard several recordings of the tune, but I've never heard any of the old-timers in Tennessee play it, and it's quite different from most of the tunes I've heard from the area. I tend to associate this tune with West Virginia.


quote:

Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

I tried to write it in 2/4, and there were pieces of it that appeared to go into 5/8, 3/4, and 11/16, but I'm probably doing it wrong. LOL!



(I'm trying to tag him, but it doesn't seem to be working.) @alaskafiddler



quote: Originally posted by Brian Wood



I believe it's 4/4 time. The 4th bar it is 2/2. And second to last bar is 2/2. Just off the top of my head...I meant 2/4 not 2/2.






Likely it can be written in different ways. Finding the clearest way it the trick. I wouldn't be able to say much more unless I started to write it out myself. Interesting tune. Are you learning it?






 


Edited by - soppinthegravy on 05/16/2020 17:08:26

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/16/2020:  18:24:54


In addition to the 2/4 tags at the end of the verses, the piece sometimes inserts an extra 2/4 measure in the middle of what would otherwise be a straightforward strophic verse. It makes the tune meander...but in an entirely lovely way.

DougD - Posted - 05/16/2020:  18:55:32


Soppinthegravy - I wonder if Hilary is confused about where she learned this tune. Like you, I don't think it sounds like other tunes from Middle Tennessee. And in West Virginia the fiddlers of the previous generation all seemed to attribute it to one specific fiddler.
On the other hand, it certainly reminds me of "Blackberry Blossom" (Burnett & Rutherford)?

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/16/2020:  19:22:50


I agree.


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

Soppinthegravy - I wonder if Hilary is confused about where she learned this tune. Like you, I don't think it sounds like other tunes from Middle Tennessee. And in West Virginia the fiddlers of the previous generation all seemed to attribute it to one specific fiddler.

On the other hand, it certainly reminds me of "Blackberry Blossom" (Burnett & Rutherford)?






 

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 05/17/2020:  06:15:57


Well she surely isn't dancing to that tune. At least the 30 seconds I listened. And she is a fine fiddler. I like the tone of a good fiddle. Adding electronic devices and "mixing" to it takes away from that tone as often as not. THat's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. R/

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/17/2020:  06:34:27


All transcriptions I’ve seen have been in regular 4/4 time. It’s not uncommon in West Virginia tunes for there to be a extra beat or two to show up sometimes.

I’ve always heard Yew Piney Mountain is a West Virginia tune. Alan Lomax claimed it was an early version of Blackberry Blossom.

DougD - Posted - 05/17/2020:  12:32:10


BTW, she's not really fiddling in that clip. I'm sure she's "fiddlesyncing" to a previously recorded track. I think there are other videos that show off her talents better.

gapbob - Posted - 05/17/2020:  16:54:55


Definitely, considering she is walking and not playing. 4/4 time. An occasional hemiola, perhaps? Not trad.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/17/2020:  17:25:55


Tunes like this probably can't really be expressed in a strict meter in any easy way.



This is the way I think of most versions of this tune, and tunes like it; how I make sense of it;, mostly it follows common 2/4 meter base... and uses steady beat and expectation of steady 2/4.... but uses some phrasing devices, creating suspension, form of tension/release and or surprise. One that it holds notes, for extra beat(s) typically at end of phrase. In addition, another device playing with phrasing; using the concluding last note of previous phrase, held or as extended for the first note of another phrase (as it's the same pitch); which initially might seem as a skip or omitting the first note of a phrase. Probably write the latter with a long tie over the bar. This device is sometimes be used yet kept in steady meter.



Just to note, on some tunes there is a similar to latter but slightly different device that is sometimes used, which is using the last concluding note of a phrase as also the actual beginning note of the next phrase... thus leaves out  a beat for steady meter expectation, makes jump ahead. (classic song example is that George Washington, Hallelujah  song)



The combination of devises, held, delay and jumping ahead... can make it seem even more elusive.



I personally am not a big fan of these devices, esp often they are not executed well IMO.



-------



Additional note. These are different than tunes that use more complex, additive or asymmetric meter ideas... which are essentially metered combinations of feel of 2 and 3.



 



 

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/17/2020:  17:52:00


alaska -- I love pauses and hemiolas (thanks GapBob) for refreshing my memory of the term!). They may not be a dancer's or jammer's delight but they allow tunes to breathe. They add humanity and poise.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/17/2020:  18:31:46


A hemiola is a shift between duple and triple meter within a piece, expressed as two groups of three becoming three groups of two (or vice verse). This means that the stressed beats shift during the effect, creating a sense of change. It’s a mathematically interesting device, as it employs the 3:2 ratio.


Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 05/17/2020 18:32:55

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/18/2020:  19:21:46


Perhaps they meant tenuto.


quote:

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

A hemiola is a shift between duple and triple meter within a piece, expressed as two groups of three becoming three groups of two (or vice verse). This means that the stressed beats shift during the effect, creating a sense of change. It’s a mathematically interesting device, as it employs the 3:2 ratio.






 

DougD - Posted - 05/18/2020:  20:12:50


Or maybe a fermata.

RobBob - Posted - 05/19/2020:  05:58:47


That tune really goes like this youtube.com/watch?v=VxwacPjRUz8



The other version is a what I 'd call a city pop version.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/19/2020:  09:31:32


quote:

Originally posted by RobBob

That tune really goes like this youtube.com/watch?v=VxwacPjRUz8



The other version is a what I 'd call a city pop version.






Very much like Ed Haley's Garfield's Blackberry Blossom. Different key.

RobBob - Posted - 05/19/2020:  12:34:01


quote:

Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

Originally posted by RobBob

That tune really goes like this youtube.com/watch?v=VxwacPjRUz8



The other version is a what I 'd call a city pop version.






Very much like Ed Haley's Garfield's Blackberry Blossom. Different key.






Not so much IMHO youtube.com/watch?v=9QZy6ZsqOiQ

DougD - Posted - 05/19/2020:  14:21:15


After Ed Haley this video popped up, which I like, even though I think they're from a foreign land. A reminder that the banjo is first of all a drum: youtu.be/_rHjrgpvKGc


Edited by - DougD on 05/19/2020 14:26:09

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/19/2020:  15:24:56


Even though this thread isn't about Garfield's Blackberry Blossom per se, it is about timing, and I have never been able to understand the timing in its 3rd part. A friend even wrote out the 3rd part (on my site) but I still can't read it without counting.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/20/2020:  13:26:48


Always thought that Yewpiney went like this



youtube.com/watch?v=sOnIn5OYE18



From an old Rounder Records recording i used to have...Nowt like Garfields BB.



That link in the op sounds and looks like an over produced mimed recording of Garfield's BB


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 05/20/2020 13:39:40

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/20/2020:  14:37:58


Yeah, the vid ain't gonna win any authenticity awards, but I still like the playing.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 05/20/2020:  15:19:50


This is where I learned it. youtube.com/watch?v=GgDFZNCmCpo

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/21/2020:  14:15:44


quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

This is where I learned it. youtube.com/watch?v=GgDFZNCmCpo






What's going on with that time signature? angel

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