Snafu - Posted - 05/09/2020:  07:27:58

So COVID lockdown gives me time to explore the fringes of my music education. I have attended the Wernick class for Bluegrass - one time with my guitar and now three times playing fiddle since I’m learning it and the classes give me some practice. (Yea, I’m a musical recidivist!).

One point that was made in each of the Wernick classes, as hints to the chord centric guitarists trying to form a musically acceptable melodic break, is that (usually) the melody notes are contained in the chords and as a cheat one can form the chord shape and pick out the melody notes with a little practice.

Transferring this observation to my fiddle playing does not seem to work for me. Is this a gross oversimplification or does it take a more thorough understanding of music theory to apply this “chords as melody” concept

Swing - Posted - 05/09/2020:  07:41:48

The tissue is that you can only really play two of the three notes in a chord on the fiddle. Having said that, if you shift the chord up three positions you get the other note(s) in the chord.... i.e. G chord, G and B notes 1st position, G chord same pattern shifted up to third position, D note and B notes. Since the fiddle is tuned in fifths this will work with other chord shapes...

Play Happy

Swing

RobBob - Posted - 05/09/2020:  08:35:23

The melody falls into the scale. Notes in the scale also are in the chords, so yes the melody will be found in the chords but each chord does not hold all of the notes in the melody. The melody will wend it's way through the chords. The chords actually harmonize the melody. This is why a little bit of theory can go a long way in playing music.

Edited by - RobBob on 05/09/2020 08:35:43

Snafu - Posted - 05/09/2020:  10:38:08

I guess I’m showing my ignorance: if the melody and chords are interrelated so strongly then why is it often such a challenge to pick out the “correct” chords that go with a melody?

For example, an active discussion sidetracked into which chords to play with a tune called Midnight on the Water - one that I play often on Fiddle and really like. One of the suggestions was to play a D chord for (almost) the whole part A of the tune, I recall. How one can get the melody of MOTW out of a single chord is way above my skills set.

My way of thinking of it is that the chords should compliment the melody and in some cases drive it. But its melody first and primary right? This leaves room for the musical version of “viewer discretion is advised” when choosing chords for some tunes but not others depending on the musical “fit”. I never could get this right playing guitar. My hats off to a guitarist who can select the chords to compliment a melody on the fly - my lack of this ability is what drove me to play the fiddle.

LukeF - Posted - 05/09/2020:  10:39:36

Hi Jim:

I too have attended the Wernick Jam camps, so I think I can provide some insight. I believe what the instructor was trying to tell you is that when it comes to your turn to play the break, you really don't have to play the melody notes as played in the recording but you can sound quite good if you play any of the notes in the chord (as long as you follow the same tempo as the other musicians). You can't hit a sour note if you follow this principle.

Did they teach you the 1-note melody trick? If you play just the root note of the chord that is being played, you will still sound pretty good if you use the Georgian shuffle bowing technique.

I highly recommend the Wernick Jam camps. Its great for beginners and intermediates.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 05/09/2020:  10:59:03

i have a friend who also plays Irish music and jazz so it’s really fun to play with him as he knows lots of interesting chords that can be substituted. We have fun with things like smooth jazz version of squirrel hunters and funky versions of come along Jody or old dangerfield.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 05/09/2020:  11:03:43

The simple answer to your topic is yes, but of course its more complicated than that. Many many tunes use the I, IV, and V chords. Simple chords are composed of triads, three notes. So the three notes of the I chord are 1, 3, 5, or Do,Mi,So, if it helps to think of the Sound of Music. The three notes for the IV chord are 4, 6, 8, or Fa,La, and back to Do. The 3 notes for the V chord are 5, 7, 2, or So,Ti, Re.  Thus with these 3 chords, every note of the major scale has a chord, that it is part of. If you think of church hymns, often each melody note has a new chord that supports it, so a different chord with every note. Most often other forms of music will have multiple melody notes moving over a single chord. Thats a brief explanation of how that fits together. Now my feeling with fiddle is, that unlike guitar or even mandolin, the fiddle is not hugely based on chords, its based on melody, so scales. My opinion here, but I think it would be worth the time and effort to be able to play 5 scales in a closed position, ie no open strings. The major scale, the minor scale, the major pentatonic scale, the minor pentatonic scale, and a blues scale. So to summarize, its my feeling that for fiddle, how melody notes relate to a particular scale is more important, than how they relate to a chord, but they absolutely do relate to the chords too.

Edited by - bandsmcnamar on 05/09/2020 11:06:48

farmerjones - Posted - 05/09/2020:  11:12:46

To take RobBob's post and continue just a bit: A given chord progression (i.e., 1, 4, 5) is common to many tunes/songs. The melody, however, is common to only one or two songs/tunes.



Don't overthink chord theory. 1, 4, 5 , that would be D, G, A, in the key or D. Or G, C, D in the key of G. There's lierally hundreds of songs/tunes with this pattern/progression. Another hundred more, with 1, 4, 1, 5, pattern. So if your a guitarist, your first change is from the key's chord (1) to either the 4, or 5 chord. A 50/50 guess.



So, if a fiddler plays the notes of the chord in some pattern, in time to the music, and then transitions to the next chord and does the similar, that fiddler is still playing the chords. Some of the notes may be melody notes but don't fool yourself. There's a better chance, to find the melody in the SCALE, than with in the chord. Afterall a chord is only quite literally 3 notes. While the scale, can be as many octaves as the composer wants.

Brian, you can type faster than me.

Edited by - farmerjones on 05/09/2020 11:14:09

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/09/2020:  11:33:39

Since the melody is primary in fiddle tunes, the chords will be chosen to support it. For many tunes there is an accepted chord progression that is traditionally used. Tunes can also be jazzed up with more chord changes and extended chords that include notes beyond the triad. Many recorded old time tunes, however, are stripped down where the rhythm player might hang longer on a chord than you might expect, or play what sounds like wrong chords in some part. Music theory can help explain what's going on in a given situation, but theory wasn't driving the chord choices in old tunes. It's more likely to be the skill level, and sometimes lack of it, but mostly just how it felt to the players that produced those changes. I like some of the old time chords of major against a minor melody, and chords played without a third interval, that give prominence to the melodic freedom moving between major and minor thirds, and things like that. As much as music theory can tell you, if you can't understand these variations for how they sound you're missing something.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 05/09/2020:  11:34:38

LOL, buts it good to hear the same basic thinking said two different ways. Hopefully it will help it all make a bit more sense.

Edited by - bandsmcnamar on 05/09/2020 11:47:41

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/09/2020:  12:59:15

The melody notes contained within the chords are where the the melody rests, (to differing degrees depending on which chord tone 1,3,5, or 7), or coincides with one of the chord tones. Other notes in the melody, but not contained within the chord, either point to the next expected note, create tension or point to a modulation...etc. They keep the tune moving along to it's next note. And are sometimes deliberately deceptive to add unexpected melody notes and maintain the listeners interest.

That said the "Skeleton" of a tune is (usually but not always), contained within the notes of the accompanying chords.....

jrdickerson - Posted - 05/11/2020:  06:05:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by LukeF

Hi Jim:



I too have attended the Wernick Jam camps, so I think I can provide some insight. I believe what the instructor was trying to tell you is that when it comes to your turn to play the break, you really don't have to play the melody notes as played in the recording but you can sound quite good if you play any of the notes in the chord (as long as you follow the same tempo as the other musicians). You can't hit a sour note if you follow this principle.



 

---

I've had that advice is a course as well.  At some point, it turned out this was a survival technique for a jam session where you are presented with a chord chart or lead sheet of the tune.  We practiced improvising just based on the chords, as you describe.  We were told to just play any notes that went with that chord.  You had to know your chord arpeggios for this to work.  It wasn't an optimal solution  but a way to participate in a jam.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/11/2020:  09:44:37

Every chord and its variations have a different "flavor". IMHO chord variation and variety adds identity and character to tunes. For some types of music, the players have such an in-depth knowledge of chords, they can use chords to approximate a melody. When someone becomes interested in chords, and start reading -

1. They realize they had better learn some basic music theory first.
2. They start learning more about basic triads.
3. They realize they have taken on a large task.

But as an earlier post said, it pays to work on the first item. If you are not familiar with the chromatic scale - go to Step 1. Learning more about music also helps a musician communicate effectively.

Snafu - Posted - 05/11/2020:  11:52:15

All great thoughts and advice here as I expected from such a great group. I have been working on expanding my knowledge of music theory which quickly gets involved in the 1+3+5 formation of chords from the scale tones as has been explained here by many of you.

I guess the crux of my issue is when a bluegrasser passes around a sheet of words with just chords, or says out loud the chords of a new tune and looks to a me as a fiddle player to somehow expand that to an intro or a early break in the tune. All I’ve got is that “deer in the headlights look” as I’m searching for an excuse to sit that one out. But with just that information most of the guitarist are strumming away. I kind of have been avoiding bluegrass for that reason, searching for OT, waltzes or Irish tunes where its all about the melody.

As mentioned In posts above, I have been told to longbow on the chord root or arpeggiate over the three notes in the chord and it will sound acceptable but my albeit limited experience is that the other players are looking for more from the fiddler. I guess it all comes down to more time in the woodshed...

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/11/2020:  12:30:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snafu

All great thoughts and advice here as I expected from such a great group. I have been working on expanding my knowledge of music theory which quickly gets involved in the 1+3+5 formation of chords from the scale tones as has been explained here by many of you.



I guess the crux of my issue is when a bluegrasser passes around a sheet of words with just chords, or says out loud the chords of a new tune and looks to a me as a fiddle player to somehow expand that to an intro or a early break in the tune. All I’ve got is that “deer in the headlights look” as I’m searching for an excuse to sit that one out. But with just that information most of the guitarist are strumming away. I kind of have been avoiding bluegrass for that reason, searching for OT, waltzes or Irish tunes where its all about the melody.



As mentioned In posts above, I have been told to longbow on the chord root or arpeggiate over the three notes in the chord and it will sound acceptable but my albeit limited experience is that the other players are looking for more from the fiddler. I guess it all comes down to more time in the woodshed...

---

Double stops are nice. Do them as potatoes for the intro and long bows over chord changes. Learning a few positions for double stops is not that hard.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/11/2020:  13:08:36

This can also be understood on a "Physical" level also. Once it is realized that there is no such thing as a "Single Tone", and that a "Single Tone" is made from a series of harmonics. The strongest in amplitude being the octave the fifth and the third (sound familiar?), which originate from a "Fundamental" tone, or "Root" note. (Actual or perceived).

Then it just becomes a question of how one tone, or bunch of harmonics, reacts with another. Where it has come from. And where a listener thinks it might go to. Based on (i suppose), their own listening experiences.Which are probably...Maybe? Expanding as they listen?

The composers job is to either re-enforce the listeners expectations, take them on an unexpected path, or confuse them altogether...or whatever, in order to hold their attention.

And the performers job is to interpret the composers intensions and execute them....And when i say "Execute"....

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/11/2020:  13:57:59

In my opinion, based on the “deer in the headlights” situation, you’d be better served learning scales in the BG keys and learning the basic variations for kicking a tune off. And if I was asked to start a song I don’t know based on some chords, I’d ask them to hum a few bars of melody to decided which kick off is best suited. That situation isn’t really fair to anyone involved.
Basically you want to practice learning melodies on the fly. You can do that by playing along to recordings and YouTube before you venture out into the wild.

Joel Glassman - Posted - 05/11/2020:  14:23:14

If you really want to explore the structure of chords and progressions I'd suggest buying a mandolin and learning to play it. My own knowledge in these topics took a big leap forward when I did that. The mandolin really allows you to see the patterns in chord movement which all rhythm players create. [You'll also have a way to make rhythm tracks.] "If you play just the root note of the chord that is being played, you will still sound pretty good if you use the Georgian shuffle bowing technique." This might work for basic styles of music, but its not a very sophisticated way to play. Instead I'd learn all the variety of chords in first position. For example: to play a G chord play the following double stops [with the scale tones noted]:
Bottom strings======
G & D open strings [1&5]
B on the G string and the D open string [3&5]
B on the G string and G on the D string [3&1]
The open G string and G on the D string [1&1]
Middle strings======
the D open string and B on the A string [5&3]
the D open string and D on the A string [5&5]
G on the D string and B on the A string [1&3]
etc etc. on the A&E strings
[concentrate on open strings droning against fingered strings.

Do this with the C and D chords too and create pathways
of chord movement on simple chord progressions.
Two bars of G? Play a different shape in bar 2.
It may seem like a lot of work but the violin is all about
transposition: "play G chords on the bottom strings then move
those shapes to the middle strings and now you are playing in D".
Problem solving practice like this is very good for the brain !
It becomes intuitive and you become a better player as the structure
of chords is revealed.
Maybe you have lots of free time to study this now? :^)

farmerjones - Posted - 05/11/2020:  14:29:26

Bluegrass jams do have an advantage many songs share melodies as well as chord progressions. Many songs are only two or three chord tunes.
But the downside, despite the many, there are the exceptions. There's no harm in listening clinically the first go around or even sitting one out. Nobody can know every song.
If you go to a regular periodic jam, write down titles and keys of songs. I was once told, have half a dozen tunes you do know inside out. To be ready for when it's your turn. This is much appreciated. I found it suprizing how 6 songs turns into 12, then 20, then 40, etc., if you have a jam or two to attend. At one time i went to a Tues. night jam. A Thurs. night jam. Followed by some sort of weekend festival. Easy to get 20 hours a week, not counting the woodshed. Easily a thousand hours a year.

buckhenry - Posted - 05/11/2020:  21:14:18

All good melodies are based on the notes of the triad, and the 'passing notes' between them, but the triad will dominate the phrase. That's how the key/scale and the chords, thus the progression are determined. Many tunes/songs have the exact same chord progression but different melodies, so on that basis you can improvise a completely new melodic line for your break. It will sound convincing by emphasizing the chord tones, anticipating the chord changes, and being rhythmical with melodic balance/phrasing.

A tune can have many different variations of the chord changes, this depends on the genre and the skill of performer. In four part vocal harmony the chords can change on every beat, but the melodic line will still contain notes of the triad. Within the chord changes there are rules to follow when moving between chords, and the choice of cadences. One note in any key can have many chord choices depending on the function of that note in the melody, but it depends on the genre which chord progression is chosen.

farmerjones - Posted - 05/12/2020:  06:04:18

Gotta second Joel's remarks. Just as well get a mandolin too. Tuned the same as a violin. Not expensive. Because of the frets, is very maplike when it comes to chords and melody. Won't help your bowing! Jussayin. 

Edited by - farmerjones on 05/12/2020 06:05:34

Baileyb - Posted - 05/12/2020:  08:21:57

The late John Hartford discussed the OP's question in some length in his DVD "John Hartford's Old Time Fiddling" about an hour into the video. The video is available from " Fiddler Magazine if you are interested.



fiddle.com/Order-Online.page

Edited by - Baileyb on 05/12/2020 08:22:51

Skookum - Posted - 05/14/2020:  16:25:55

you can buy a new cheap uke for about $35 and re-arrange strings into fiddle tuning (helps to have the lowest string the D or G string of a guitar). Then play with a pick. I think Elderly also sells a uke string set already made up.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/15/2020:  08:46:40

Here's a chart that shows the more common chords and their melody intervals in every key. Understanding this chart will be pretty easy if you already have a working knowledge of the subject. A novice will probably be scratching their head.

Fiddle - Chord to Melody Theory

 

buckhenry - Posted - 05/15/2020:  17:04:17

Why not learn all the arpeggios in all keys, across all strings and then you can chop away on the double stops like a strumming guitarist.

Here are all the possible double stops that can be played on the fiddle, excluding the 2nds which are pretty rare....

They are just the same principle as movable chords on the guitar.

There aren't very many but you gotta learn how they fit the chords and the keys...

It's actually quicker to learn the basic theory of keys and triads, and you gotta know the fingerboard.

 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/16/2020:  07:31:20

Henry you have a "typo".

buckhenry - Posted - 05/16/2020:  17:41:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Henry you have a "typo".

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Thanks Richard, I give up, where is it...?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/16/2020:  21:33:03

Greetings Henry, dim4th

buckhenry - Posted - 05/16/2020:  21:40:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Greetings Henry, dim4th

---

ah yes, thanks, it is actually a Aug 4th or a Dim 5th....

Joel Glassman - Posted - 06/17/2020:  16:43:50

I would learn chords from a chart of simple mandolin chords. Keep in mind a C chord moved up the neck a whole step becomes a D chord. [Same with G to A] Change fingers from 1 & 2 to 2 & 3. There is a common chord missing here. Its an A chord played with your index finger pressing down the G and D strings [on the notes A & E.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

Why not learn all the arpeggios in all keys, across all strings and then you can chop away on the double stops like a strumming guitarist.



Here are all the possible double stops that can be played on the fiddle, excluding the 2nds which are pretty rare....



They are just the same principle as movable chords on the guitar.



There aren't very many but you gotta learn how they fit the chords and the keys...



It's actually quicker to learn the basic theory of keys and triads, and you gotta know the fingerboard.

---

farmerjones - Posted - 06/17/2020:  17:34:30

NFN i've bought a couple mandolins from musicians friend for under $50.
Just a thought- One might only string it with 4 instead of 8 strings. Much easier on the fingertips.

Nother thought- a chord by definition is three tones/notes. I.e. C chord contains C, E, G. But G, E, C is also, and G, C, E. There's three versions/voices of every chord. To muddy up the water, think of the combinations, if all one can play is two tones/notes: C&E, C&G, E&G! Notice the last duo-tone is rootless! One can even invert the aforementioned: G&E, G&C, E&C. Six premutations to every chord. There are chords all over the fingerboard. I have them framed in keys. As long as you are living within the key, one is much less likely to make that sickening clam.

buckhenry - Posted - 06/17/2020:  18:25:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by farmerjones

There are chords all over the fingerboard. 

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This is why it's a good idea to learn the theory/structure of keys and chords, then the chord notes will be under the fingers at any time no matter which string or position they are on. Mandolin chord diagrams are a good place to begin but they don't provide all the possibilities (which is ideal for fiddle accompaniment) because they are meant to facilitate the strumming of usually all the strings of the mandolin. 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/17/2020:  19:28:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Glassman

I would learn chords from a chart of simple mandolin chords. Keep in mind a C chord moved up the neck a whole step becomes a D chord. [Same with G to A] Change fingers from 1 & 2 to 2 & 3. There is a common chord missing here. Its an A chord played with your index finger pressing down the G and D strings [on the notes A & E.]

---

 

---

The common mandolin closed chord shapes are also useful to learn. Shows how 2 adjacent string double stops fit and relate; within a fingering position.

For example, in first position, closed G, D, A, E; Em, Am shapes give pinkie/third finger; third/second; second/first fingering pairs; covering most common double stops... and will help build fingering.  These can move adjacently, over a set of string pairs. That is, first position C shape is the same as G shape, just over moved over. Of course these closed can all move up the fingerboard to higher positions.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 06/17/2020 19:28:59

Joel Glassman - Posted - 06/18/2020:  06:00:51

One thing I teach is changing double-stop chord forms when there is a long stretch of 1 chord. If its a G chord, you can move from the open G&D , to the fingered B [on the G string] with the open D string, to the B on the A string with the open D string. All G chords with a drone on the 5th. It sounds good to weave together open string drones. Best to make the connections without jumping around a lot. Its a challenge to play this way without getting too complicated. Sawing away on a Georgia Shuffle can dominate the music if you're not careful. Its not necessary to always define the rhythm, though some styles do. A good exercise for this is to play arpeggios with double-stops. Moving chords up the neck is a great sound, but it takes technique very few fiddle students have [especially if they haven't studied Classical] Can be learned though. Also, learning how chords are spelled, and where notes are on the fiddle, is a very good thing. Its simple memorization for the keys of G D A C and Dm Em and Am.

Edited by - Joel Glassman on 06/18/2020 06:05:17

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/18/2020:  11:36:56

As a 1st step i would



1: learn the 7 Mode patterns In the key of C Major through 1 octave on adjacent strings



2: learn the arpeggios of the chords in C Major that are within each mode pattern (4 note chords should be sufficient at first, but M6 and M9 would be handy)



3: learn the pentatonic scale (or it's inversion) within each mode pattern



4: learn the possible double stops on adjacent strings within each mode pattern For the chords in C Major



5: learn the function of Each chord in C Major



6: learn to analyze a chord progression in C Major (cadences etc)



7: learn how a C major melody is interacts with a C Major chord progression



8: All the above steps with A Natural minor (The relative minor of C Major and exactly the same mode patterns, but from A to A)



9: Ditto with A Harmonic minor (same mode patterns with the G sharpened)



10: Ditto with A Melodic minor (same mode patterns with the F sharpened and th G sharpened ascending, and then flattened again descending)



10: Transpose all the above to sharp keys and flat keys. To at least 3 sharps or flats



Then marvel at how players and composers use chromatic notes or blue notes, etc, etc,etc to break all the rules...... But at least you will have a point of reference to begin analyzing the music from.

farmerjones - Posted - 06/18/2020:  12:10:48

Y'know, my regret wouldn't be starting violin/fiddle later in life. It would be starting piano later still. My distrust of pianos cost me dearly. Music theory seems to be laid bare once one knows the note names on a piano.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/18/2020:  14:32:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by farmerjones

Y'know, my regret wouldn't be starting violin/fiddle later in life. It would be starting piano later still. My distrust of pianos cost me dearly. Music theory seems to be laid bare once one knows the note names on a piano.

---

i reckon fiddle (or any string instrument tuned in 5ths), is as good for learning music theory as any other instrument, and maybe more logical than some. Once the seven mode patterns through 1 octave on adjacent strings are memorized, and can be visualized as you are playing. All other scales arpeggios double stops and stuff can be yielded from them, and you have a logical fingering for them all. Then anything you have to do different from using them (using open strings to shift, harmonizing, altering a note to modulate etc ), becomes a "departure from the norm".

Plus if i can visualize them i can visualize the intervals that form them, and maybe even sing them...Or imagine how i would sing them if i could.....

Brian Wood - Posted - 06/18/2020:  15:25:47

Yes, theory is understandable on the fiddle, but nothing beats the piano in the key of C for a graphic linear display of intervals and their relationships.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/19/2020:  01:50:50

Any theoretical and/or practical skills learned at the piano, are directly and immediately applicable to a piano ...Same is true of a fiddle. If fiddle is someones primary or single instrument, i would suggest that learning their theory on the fiddle, and at the same time learning the practical skills needed, would be a faster and more direct track than transposing those theoretical and practical skills from another instrument.

farmerjones - Posted - 06/19/2020:  05:48:30

Pete,
I was merely refering to a piano keyboard as another music theory "aid."
There are many many fiddlers that have lived and died as instincive/ear players. I was one of them. A piano keyboard does take decoding. But so does reading notation. So does mode theory. So does fingering charts. So does anything that converts a visual to an aural. Cognitive aids all. It's subjective if one is better than another, due many factors.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 06/19/2020:  07:10:58

I don't remember if I put this visual on FHO before.

chords/melody

 

boxbow - Posted - 06/19/2020:  07:28:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I don't remember if I put this visual on FHO before.

---

That was great when I imagined a keyboard to confirm it on.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/19/2020:  10:14:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I don't remember if I put this visual on FHO before.

---

That was great when I imagined a keyboard to confirm it on.

---

Why would you do that if you where playing fiddle?

boxbow - Posted - 06/19/2020:  11:38:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I don't remember if I put this visual on FHO before.

---

That was great when I imagined a keyboard to confirm it on.

---

Why would you do that if you where playing fiddle?

---

I wasn't playing a fiddle, I was looking at a pdf file.  But in answer to your question, it's nothing I would be capable of while playing.  I can stop and visualize stops on the fingerboard and often do.  It's more accurate if I pick up my mandolin and piece things together.  But on the fly?  Improvising?  It's a train wreck for sure to engage my conscious logical what-note-next brain.  But I'm not a fancy player.  Visualization is just a tool.  An imaginary keyboard is mine.  This is not a test.

DougD - Posted - 06/19/2020:  12:26:11

I have an imaginary keyboard too. Also, on both my laptop and tablet I have a "virtual" MIDI keyboard app. But I was a capable piano player before I started fiddling.
BTW pete, do you play the piano or know the keyboard? To me it seems a far easier way to work out theory, which transfers easily to any other instruments (although the techniques might not). I think most music schools require some keyboard study, partly for this reason.

Edited by - DougD on 06/19/2020 12:31:29

Snafu - Posted - 06/19/2020:  15:46:39

As the originator of the topic I check back in from time to time. I thank everyone for all the great insight. I only wish I had some piano time under my fingers but alas, no piano. My mom did get a Lowery organ as a present but my sister took lessons on that and the old lady teaching it smelled awful so I never took lessons. I did take lessons on moms cast off classical guitar using the mel bay series. Got into book 2 then other things took my interest - sailing and flying.

I remember how surprised I was when I learned that all the notes of the scale are Included in the triads of the three main I, IV and V chords. That realization, in part, brought me to the post topic.

I still may get a piano, or at least a decent keyboard since I am more and more interested in music structure and I believe the keyboard is the best visual tool for that - although the fiddle in fifths works well for that too.

buckhenry - Posted - 06/19/2020:  16:56:41

When I began music theory studies I would quickly sketch a piano keyboard diagram to be used for analysis.

DougD - Posted - 06/19/2020:  17:05:58

There is an app called VMPK, "The Virtual Midi Piano Keyboard," also available for the PC, thats really handy for working out theory problems or determining keys. I recommend it. You can get useful actual keyboards for less than $100 too. I have a Yamaha with Midi I bought years ago to do arrangements, and we recently found a similar, newer model at Goodwill for $2.99!

boxbow - Posted - 06/20/2020:  13:49:26

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

There is an app called VMPK, "The Virtual Midi Piano Keyboard," also available for the PC, thats really handy for working out theory problems or determining keys. I recommend it. You can get useful actual keyboards for less than $100 too. I have a Yamaha with Midi I bought years ago to do arrangements, and we recently found a similar, newer model at Goodwill for $2.99!

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I wish mine had full-size keys, if not a full keyboard.  Mine is long gone now.  Cheap and useful for a while.  A little cramped to use.  I also found the drum machine to be a good substitute for a metronome in the earlier fiddling.  Sorted out my waltz time quick.