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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: How about a bowing thread.....


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/52874/2

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bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/07/2020:  17:14:03


I need to do that again for sure!

farmerjones - Posted - 02/07/2020:  18:52:21


If you've never heard the Monumental CD, John Hartford's, Hamilton Ironworks. I've said it before, it changed my life. John had an internal bowing library. Besides that, he loved to change it up every eight bars. I appreciated this, mostly because a tune gets boring otherwise.
Then i sorta thought i had it dialed in, until i actually watched Kenny Baker play. Then you find out that what you hear, may not be what's truely going on, bowing-wise. IOW, Kenny could put the pulse anywhere he wanted. Upbow, downbow, doesn't mean a thing. It's sorta like, when i want to learn a tune from somebody in front of me. It helps me to not look at them, and what they're doing. If i look away, it helps me to listen. That's really what you want. Obvious or not, with music you want the sound, not the nessesarily the motion. Okay, that's all i got.

gapbob - Posted - 02/08/2020:  06:42:57


Though most probably don't play Irish, I found Martin Hayes to be a player whose bowing is quite worthy of imitation, if just to learn how to do it. Just because you learn a technique, does not mean you have to use it all the time, or at all, but having it in your panoply of tools is a good thing.



Other bowing influences I've had are Buddy MacMaster, who is pretty much a straight-ahead player, but whose straight-aheadness beats the crap out of everybody else, and Geoff Seitz, whom I was fortunate enough to have heard for decades, a driving bowing, which seems to me mostly of his own style, though David Bragger's playing reminds me of Geoff.  Geoff is also a drummer, which puts him in good stead to the "rhythm is job one" idea.



Geoff makes great fiddles, also.


Edited by - gapbob on 02/08/2020 06:44:06

Baileyb - Posted - 02/08/2020:  07:26:16


quote:

Originally posted by gapbob

Though most probably don't play Irish, I found Martin Hayes to be a player whose bowing is quite worthy of imitation, if just to learn how to do it. Just because you learn a technique, does not mean you have to use it all the time, or at all, but having it in your panoply of tools is a good thing.



 




For those that have access to the "Winter 2000/01 Fiddler Magazine" Peter Anick did an interview with Martin Hayes about his bowing style with examples of how he bows certain phrases.

Jimbeaux - Posted - 02/08/2020:  13:38:00


Anyone know of a strictly audio breakdown of different bowing patterns? You can DUUDUDU to me all day but if I hear it I can usually repeat it.

That's the only reason I can recognize a Nashville or other shuffle patterns. I remember them mostly as feelings, but never as downs ups and slurs.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/08/2020:  14:26:09


Did you catch the link in one of my earlier posts? It's for an archieved audio file posted here on the Hangout by Fiddlepogo, explaining 3 different shuffle bowing patterns. It's about 17 minutes long, but worth the listen in my estimation.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 02/08/2020:  20:10:59


Do you have a recording of it? 


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

I have to admit, I kind of miss some of the spirited bowing discussions. I've been trying to teach myself to do a new pattern, for me at least. It works anywhere you have 8 eighth notes in a measure(unless the jumping across strings thing is happening). Pogo probably had a name for it, and maybe some of you will know that, but the pattern is: DUD, UUU(slurred), DU. In my mind it syncs well with a forward roll on the banjo and gives you this 123, 123, 12 feel. Anyway I'm liking it a lot, and its a totally different feel than the Nashville or Georgia shuffles, that I mostly use. Anyone else out there using this pattern? If so, where does it work particularly well for you. I'm currently liking it a lot on Sugar In The Gourd.






 

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/09/2020:  04:17:47


I don't, but I'll work on that, with luck maybe later today. I assume you mean Sugar in the Gourd.

indianajones - Posted - 02/09/2020:  06:47:25


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

IndianaJones... can you read sheet music? If you can I'd be happy to send you sheet music for the tune indicating the 'play three-slur three' bowing..You could also come to my home since we both live in the same state and about nowhere is more than three hours away..






No, I cannot read music but I can analyze it.  Let me give it a shot and see if I can make any sense of it. 



Thank you for the offer to come to your house.  My wife and I go down to Bloomington often either to see live music or visit her cousin.  Bout an hour and a half I'd say.  We can work out some details in email.



Just wanna say thanks to TuneWeaver and everyone for the great information I get from this forum.



Go Hoosiers!

indianajones - Posted - 02/09/2020:  09:52:17


quote:

Originally posted by farmerjones

If you've never heard the Monumental CD, John Hartford's, Hamilton Ironworks. I've said it before, it changed my life. John had an internal bowing library. Besides that, he loved to change it up every eight bars. I appreciated this, mostly because a tune gets boring otherwise.



Being a huge Hartford fan, you would think I would have this recording.  I think I will wait till the Hartford memorial fest this year and buy it from his family.




I wish I could change it up every eight bars.  I struggle just to play it correctly the same way twice, so it is not boring to me but surely to listeners.  Is the ability to change it up something that comes naturally after playing a long time or more of a natural gift or a combination?


 

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/09/2020:  11:28:20


Okay, not that this is something I'm entirely comfortable with, but hey, it's good to stretch oneself, right? Here's Sugar In The Gourd, and then a breakdown of what I'm doing with the bowing. Know that I do not normally put this kind of thought into playing a tune, but since I'm trying to learn this new pattern, sawshuffle, or play 3, slur 3, play 2, it has caused me to be analytical about the whole tune. So here it is, I hope this helps.


ChickenMan - Posted - 02/09/2020:  13:47:12


quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

quote:

No, I cannot read music but I can analyze it.  Let me give it a shot and see if I can make any sense of it. 


Thank you for the offer to come to your house.  My wife and I go down to Bloomington often either to see live music or visit her cousin.  Bout an hour and a half I'd say.  We can work out some details in email.



Just wanna say thanks to TuneWeaver and everyone for the great information I get from this forum.



Go Hoosiers!






I've driven 7 hours to play tunes with Lee and friends, some of whom also drove from out of state (Illinois and Michigan). Just saying, it would be worth your while. smiley



Edit: to fix an auto correct. indecision


Edited by - ChickenMan on 02/09/2020 13:48:10

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/09/2020:  13:49:28


smileyquote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

quote:

No, I cannot read music but I can analyze it.  Let me give it a shot and see if I can make any sense of it. 


Thank you for the offer to come to your house.  My wife and I go down to Bloomington often either to see live music or visit her cousin.  Bout an hour and a half I'd say.  We can work out some details in email.



Just wanna say thanks to TuneWeaver and everyone for the great information I get from this forum.



Go Hoosiers!






I've driven 7 hours to play tunes with Lee and friends, some of whom also drove from out of state (Illinois and Michigan). Just saying, it would be worth your while. smiley



Edit: to fix an auto correct. indecision






Hey, what I lack in playing skill.. I make up for by my ability to pull together a four state jam session!!!wink


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/09/2020 13:50:24

Skookum - Posted - 02/09/2020:  15:22:59


I learned the DUDUUUDU from Pete Sutherland thirty years ago. He called it the "332 pattern". The up-beat slur crosses the bar in the middle and with accent can give a little pulse. Nice to see he'll be back at Centrum's Fiddle Tune Festival this summer as an instructor.

I remember Fiddlepogo's bowing talk and liked how he described "Tommy's lick" (also more seasoning for old time fiddling).

Good job on the recording Brian.

Skookum - Posted - 02/09/2020:  16:23:29


that's "three-three-two"

farmerjones - Posted - 02/09/2020:  17:25:30


quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

quote:

Originally posted by farmerjones

If you've never heard the Monumental CD, John Hartford's, Hamilton Ironworks. I've said it before, it changed my life. John had an internal bowing library. Besides that, he loved to change it up every eight bars. I appreciated this, mostly because a tune gets boring otherwise.



Being a huge Hartford fan, you would think I would have this recording.  I think I will wait till the Hartford memorial fest this year and buy it from his family.




I wish I could change it up every eight bars.  I struggle just to play it correctly the same way twice, so it is not boring to me but surely to listeners.  Is the ability to change it up something that comes naturally after playing a long time or more of a natural gift or a combination?


 






Best way to eat an elephant? One bite at a time. If you have a way of playing a certain fiddle tune. I.e. Arkansas Traveler. Go from how you've learned it, to one note per bow (Pogo's saw stroke). Then go back to the first stroke. That's one technique, on one tune. Pick another tune or technique and learn that, and so on. The gift is curiosity and persistance. I I think the more technique one has, it really makes it easier and more fun, to play with more folks. 



P.s. I'm going to mention some bow strokes can't be carried all the way through a given tune. But one note per bow can. Quote John Hartford: "Dr. Jimmy Grey says, when you finger a note, you draw the bow. That's the scientific way to play the fiddle young man." Cyril Stinnett also used one note per bow extensively. I use one note per bow some, but it gets physically tiring. Yes, i'm lazy. 



 



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/09/2020:  17:45:38


quote:

Originally posted by farmerjones

quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

quote:

Originally posted by farmerjones

If you've never heard the Monumental CD, John Hartford's, Hamilton Ironworks. I've said it before, it changed my life. John had an internal bowing library. Besides that, he loved to change it up every eight bars. I appreciated this, mostly because a tune gets boring otherwise.



Being a huge Hartford fan, you would think I would have this recording.  I think I will wait till the Hartford memorial fest this year and buy it from his family.




I wish I could change it up every eight bars.  I struggle just to play it correctly the same way twice, so it is not boring to me but surely to listeners.  Is the ability to change it up something that comes naturally after playing a long time or more of a natural gift or a combination?


 






Best way to eat an elephant? One bite at a time. If you have a way of playing a certain fiddle tune. I.e. Arkansas Traveler. Go from how you've learned it, to one note per bow (Pogo's saw stroke). Then go back to the first stroke. That's one technique, on one tune. Pick another tune or technique and learn that, and so on. The gift is curiosity and persistance. I I think the more technique one has, it really makes it easier and more fun, to play with more folks. 



P.s. I'm going to mention some bow strokes can't be carried all the way through a given tune. But one note per bow can. Quote John Hartford: "Dr. Jimmy Grey says, when you finger a note, you draw the bow. That's the scientific way to play the fiddle young man." Cyril Stinnett also used one note per bow extensively. I use one note per bow some, but it gets physically tiring. Yes, i'm lazy. 



 



 






I like all of that.!!!  Just to play a tune with ONLY the saw stroke can be fun and interesting.. As I recall, and the Hangout experts will quickly get on this, there is an Irish tradition of fiddling in which only one note-one stroke is how all tunes are played.. Where that style is played eludes me.....As long as a tune sounds rhythmic,  and is played in tune and on time... bowing style is isn't all that important.. ..really..(could be wrong).



 

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/09/2020:  19:01:20


Donegal fiddling, but every style has its exceptions. IMO unless you're really good at sawstroke, it can sound a little stilted used all through a tune. But if you're really good, you can fool people into thinking you are doing more that just sawstroke, but also more than just patterns too (Kenny Baker comes to mind with all of his smooth single strokes and pushed long bows).

gapbob - Posted - 02/09/2020:  19:26:53


Took a workshop with Liz Carroll once and she mentioned whatever works, she even knew a fiddler that used long bows and slurred everything.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/10/2020:  06:39:45


I hear and think of Donegal style as quite a slur..ry sort of style, apart from the bowed triplets. Like Cathal Hayden, or as in this Vid of Aidan O'Donnell.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/10/2020:  06:50:05


I love the Farewell to Ireland tune. The A part sounds a little like Jimmy In The Swamp.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/10/2020:  08:40:44


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

I love the Farewell to Ireland tune. The A part sounds a little like Jimmy In The Swamp.






As brothers i cant think of better players of that style



 

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/10/2020:  09:31:22


So fun! Thanks for sharing that!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/10/2020:  09:42:43


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

So fun! Thanks for sharing that!






Yes, great tune.. I see that the Session.org has six setting and sheet music if anyone is interested..thesession.org/tunes/818

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/10/2020:  10:01:03


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

I hear and think of Donegal style as quite a slur..ry sort of style, apart from the bowed triplets. Like Cathal Hayden, or as in this Vid of Aidan O'Donnell.






Since you are closer to the island, do you have an answer to the question I answered other than to confirm that there are exceptions (as I said in my statement)? 


Edited by - ChickenMan on 02/10/2020 10:03:05

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/10/2020:  10:13:38


quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

I hear and think of Donegal style as quite a slur..ry sort of style, apart from the bowed triplets. Like Cathal Hayden, or as in this Vid of Aidan O'Donnell.






Since you are closer to the island, do you have an answer to the question I answered other than to confirm that there are exceptions (as I said in my statement)? 






No answer, but Just my opinion about "Donegal style" fiddling. Close or far away doesn't seem to matter nowadays, with youtubes and all...

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/10/2020:  10:19:30


Cathal hayden i seem to remember, has great admiration (and influences from?), American styles of fiddling. i hear that as well from his use of Chromatics and blue notes, albeit that they are used in slightly different ways than i hear in American styles imo.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/10/2020:  11:13:38


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

So fun! Thanks for sharing that!






Yes, great tune.. I see that the Session.org has six setting and sheet music if anyone is interested..thesession.org/tunes/818






Don't think anyones going to capture that soon with "sheet music" alone...maybe they might get close if they are really good at it, and practice and listen for a few months/years  :0)

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/10/2020:  13:09:58


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

So fun! Thanks for sharing that!






Yes, great tune.. I see that the Session.org has six setting and sheet music if anyone is interested..thesession.org/tunes/818






Don't think anyones going to capture that soon with "sheet music" alone...maybe they might get close if they are really good at it, and practice and listen for a few months/years  :0)






Yes, but knowing the notes ahead of time helps...IMO..

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:24:35


I just returned from a Suzuki violin method recital.. My two grandchildren performed. The five year old has been playing for a year now and can play Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star using several variations using different bowing patterns... Patterns. Yep.. I can't see how anyone can play without using them.. Think.. If there is a say, two or three measure piece in a tune and you are not sure how to play it, then you'd Probably work on it until your bow did what you needed it to do to get the sound you want from those measures.. If you used your bow similarly every time you played those measures....because it sounded RIGHT...they, IMO, you would be playing a Pattern....

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:27:29


quote:

Originally posted by Cyndy

If I played that pattern (which would be rare), I'd most likely do it like this:



DUDU UUDU UUDU UUDU



but I think people who put "Georgias" together often accent the D like this?



DU DUUU DUUU DUUU etc.






I use DUDU UUDU all the time and refer to it as "Middle Shuffle" because of the three ups in the middle. After 3 ups, there's usually an accent on the next down. It does add a very nice 3-3-2 feel on top of the eighth notes.



"Georgia Shuffle" generally refers to groups of 3 ups, alternating with accented downs. It's easy to go from Middle Shuffle into Georgia Shuffle by continuing the upbow at the end of the measure: DUDU UUDUUDUUDU etc. 



Dave


Edited by - dsreiner on 02/22/2020 14:28:17

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:30:38


quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Georgia is what I’d call one down three up like that. Fujers would have argued against that point until the cows came home smiley






Yes, Georgia shuffle is one down three up, but with the down on the offbeat.



Fujers was fairly alone in his characterization of pattern names :-).



Dave

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:33:33


quote:

Originally posted by gapbob

The only reasons I can think of to learn bowing patterns are:

1) so that the fiddler can learn them

2) so that the fiddler can use them until he has incorporated them into his playing

After the learning and incorporation phases are done, then the fiddler just does what they feel, they become a part of their tool suite in their playing style. Whether you do dudud or dddu or duuu or ddddddd or uuuuu does not really matter, because it is your style that is important, how those patterns are used to create the sound that the player wants.



However, there is much more to bowing than the up/down patterns. Consider up/down, shuffles, etc., to be Bowing 101. The real bowing challenges are those that pertain to how the notes sound. Does the note squeak? Does it whistle, whine, make an odd noise when you start? Do the notes that are played evoke speech/song? Can you transition from one phrase to the next smoothly and without bow glitches, able to get all the notes wanted to be played with the right emphasis and dynamics? Dynamics is critical in playing, and most of the purpose of the bowing patterns is to implement an automated method of generating dynamics in your playing. Music is rhythm first, notes second, and it is easy to get caught up in the notes and forget the rhythm, but rhythm is "job one."



If your intonation sucks but your rhythm is just fine, you will be listenable and dance-able, but if your rhythm is off, your music will suck, regardless of how good your intonation and other window dressings are. Another thread topic would be about ensuring that your ornamentation does not affect rhythm (and intonation). I can hear in my mind so many otherwise good players whose rhythm sabotages their playing.



I have fluctuated in my preference between heavy and stiff bows to light bows, and back, and back. Right now I am enjoying my lighter bows, because they give me the ability to play faster, seem to bring out a warmer tone (though with less power), and give me more tools in my ornamentation.



I have also recently decided that I need to move my elbow out a skosh from my body, it is helping making a better tone, allowing my bowing to be a bit smother/longer.



For me, these aspects of bowing are more important than which direction I go, when.






For sure, the goals of groove, accents, dynamics, rocking, scratchiness, tone, ghost notes etc. are more important than just mere bow direction.



Dave

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:38:00


quote:

Originally posted by Jimbeaux

Anyone know of a strictly audio breakdown of different bowing patterns? You can DUUDUDU to me all day but if I hear it I can usually repeat it.



That's the only reason I can recognize a Nashville or other shuffle patterns. I remember them mostly as feelings, but never as downs ups and slurs.






Look for "Georgia Shuffle Examples" on my music page here at the Hangout. There is a very quick demo of Georgia Shuffle bowing, with downbow on the offbeat and upbow everywhere else. u u D u u u D u is one measure of up and down bows. Then I play saw stroke, Nashville Shuffle, and Georgia Shuffle - first on a scale (a good way to practice!) and then on a simple version of Sally Goodin. Enjoy!



Dave

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:39:53


quote:

Originally posted by Skookum

I learned the DUDUUUDU from Pete Sutherland thirty years ago. He called it the "332 pattern". The up-beat slur crosses the bar in the middle and with accent can give a little pulse. Nice to see he'll be back at Centrum's Fiddle Tune Festival this summer as an instructor.



I remember Fiddlepogo's bowing talk and liked how he described "Tommy's lick" (also more seasoning for old time fiddling).



Good job on the recording Brian.






Pete Sutherland is still teaching this "Middle Shuffle" pattern (my name for it) at Fiddle Hell Massachusetts :-)



Dave

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  14:43:01


I started one of the original bowing discussions here 13 years ago :-). Good to see more discussion, with useful comments from all!



I didn't have the name "Middle Shuffle" then; we just called it 1-1-1-3-1-1.



Here's the original discussion: fiddlehangout.com/archive/233 



Dave


Edited by - dsreiner on 02/22/2020 14:44:35

buckhenry - Posted - 02/22/2020:  15:08:26


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle


 






Don't think anyones going to capture that soon with "sheet music" alone...maybe they might get close if they are really good at it, and practice and listen for a few months/years  :0)






Are you "throwing down the gauntlet"....?

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 02/22/2020:  15:45:12


For years I practised the Georgia shuffle and others; however, now I don't give the patterns much thought. I'll use Nashville here and there, but I find myself slurring more than most (even without the drink!) and even giving a lilt to tunes others don't. For instance, I'll play Old Joe Clark as a hornpipe. Traditionalists be d--ned! But who's to say some ol' bloke didn't play it my way anyways back in the day? Yet not long ago I played with some other fiddlers/flautist and we whipped through "Banish Misfortune" and "Lilting Banshee" and "Sheebeg Sheemore" and "Red Haired Boy/Saint Anne's Reel" and all went well, and amongst the fiddlers there was no consensus on the bowing. Of course, my way was and is the correct way, but these other lads chose to do their own thang.

Bowing patterns: who needs 'em! An absolute waste of time! Be guided by your inner muse, figure out what to use, for you've so much to lose, so please just simply refuse--to learn them.

In the spirit of balanced and objective discussion,

Humbled

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/22/2020:  16:01:23


quote:

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument





Bowing patterns: who needs 'em! An absolute waste of time! Be guided by your inner muse, figure out what to use, for you've so much to lose, so please just simply refuse--to learn them.



In the spirit of balanced and objective discussion,



Humbled






I believe there's a time for working on bowing patterns, which ends when you've assimilated them into your playing. It's a beginner thing. One can get very similar results using different bowing methods and the point is to get comfortable bowing in general, not to be dogmatic. The only time I consider a bowing pattern anymore is when I occasionally have a particular issue with a tune. Then I go back and see how I might deal with the bowing. Otherwise, I just play (humbly, of course).

screecher - Posted - 02/22/2020:  17:15:14


quote:

Originally posted by dsreiner

quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Georgia is what I’d call one down three up like that. Fujers would have argued against that point until the cows came home smiley






Yes, Georgia shuffle is one down three up, but with the down on the offbeat.



Fujers was fairly alone in his characterization of pattern names :-).



Dave






Actually, some of the books I have from the late 70s seem to indicate that other people were using "Georgia" for "Nashville" back then.


Edited by - screecher on 02/22/2020 17:18:27






DougD - Posted - 02/22/2020:  18:01:41


Thanks for posting those, screecher. Jerry was one of the few people on this forum who learned his music in the real world. When this subject came up, others were so positive and adamant in their opinions, even though they just came from something they'd read online, or heard from someone else who didn't really know either (or was relying on their own imagination in some cases).

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/22/2020:  18:14:02


I think I hear my mother calling...............

dsreiner - Posted - 02/22/2020:  19:51:19


quote:

Originally posted by screecher

quote:

Originally posted by dsreiner

quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Georgia is what I’d call one down three up like that. Fujers would have argued against that point until the cows came home smiley






Yes, Georgia shuffle is one down three up, but with the down on the offbeat.



Fujers was fairly alone in his characterization of pattern names :-).



Dave






Actually, some of the books I have from the late 70s seem to indicate that other people were using "Georgia" for "Nashville" back then.






Thanks for posting these, Screecher.



Dave

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 02/23/2020:  09:41:11


A while back I thought I'd discovered an innovative and highly rhythmic bowing pattern. Essentially I was starting with a forceful down stroke, following it up with an upstroke, and then accenting the third beat with another downstroke followed by a rest. Alas, after listening to my recordings of me playing this pattern, it turned out to be altogether prosaic and blah, simply a DUD of a bowing pattern.

Humbled

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/23/2020:  19:59:02


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I just returned from a Suzuki violin method recital.. My two grandchildren performed. The five year old has been playing for a year now and can play Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star using several variations using different bowing patterns... Patterns. Yep.. I can't see how anyone can play without using them..






Might be conflating a few things.



Those Suzuki variations are different note quantization, spacing, meter. The bow just changes direction for every note; but different bow patterns?  The same rhythmic result on any instrument, including diatonic melodian/concertina/harmonica where directional is fixed to the note's pitch; and even piano where every pattern is DDDD DDDD.   laugh



While some folks use that change per note approach to fiddle to playing; but is that really bow pattern approach?



quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I can't see how anyone can play without using them.. Think.. If there is a say, two or three measure piece in a tune and you are not sure how to play it, then you'd Probably work on it until your bow did what you needed it to do to get the sound you want from those measures.. If you used your bow similarly every time you played those measures....because it sounded RIGHT...they, IMO, you would be playing a Pattern....






Essentially that seems to view it as EVERYONE is a pattern bower. Technically if just looking at the binary math... as any measure is going to have bow direction changes; so any combination could be described as to making a bowing pattern. I don't think that is what a bowing pattern approach method is about.



To me, seems "using" bow patterns is about "thinking" bow pattern way and applying them. Overall, most of it is just about different thought process, learning method and approach to playing (maybe different goal).



I don't consider myself a bowing pattern player, as I learned more traditional, by ear, qualitative right brain/top down process; which didn't involve any analytical quantitative bowing pattern methodology. Some of us just really never think bow pattern way, never was prerequisite, nor most important aspect.  It works just fine results for what we want to do.



As far as working out a tune ( for myself),  while part includes how I move  the bow to control sound, but that's not same as "pattern" approach; and it's more focused on options of articulation, accent, phrasing and flow.



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/23/2020:  22:17:15


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I just returned from a Suzuki violin method recital.. My two grandchildren performed. The five year old has been playing for a year now and can play Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star using several variations using different bowing patterns... Patterns. Yep.. I can't see how anyone can play without using them..






Might be conflating a few things.



Those Suzuki variations are different note quantization, spacing, meter. The bow just changes direction for every note; but different bow patterns?  The same rhythmic result on any instrument, including diatonic melodian/concertina/harmonica where directional is fixed to the note's pitch; and even piano where every pattern is DDDD DDDD.   laugh



While some folks use that change per note approach to fiddle to playing; but is that really bow pattern approach?



quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I can't see how anyone can play without using them.. Think.. If there is a say, two or three measure piece in a tune and you are not sure how to play it, then you'd Probably work on it until your bow did what you needed it to do to get the sound you want from those measures.. If you used your bow similarly every time you played those measures....because it sounded RIGHT...they, IMO, you would be playing a Pattern....






Essentially that seems to view it as EVERYONE is a pattern bower. Technically if just looking at the binary math... as any measure is going to have bow direction changes; so any combination could be described as to making a bowing pattern. I don't think that is what a bowing pattern approach method is about.



To me, seems "using" bow patterns is about "thinking" bow pattern way and applying them. Overall, most of it is just about different thought process, learning method and approach to playing (maybe different goal).



I don't consider myself a bowing pattern player, as I learned more traditional, by ear, qualitative right brain/top down process; which didn't involve any analytical quantitative bowing pattern methodology. Some of us just really never think bow pattern way, never was prerequisite, nor most important aspect.  It works just fine results for what we want to do.



As far as working out a tune ( for myself),  while part includes how I move  the bow to control sound, but that's not same as "pattern" approach; and it's more focused on options of articulation, accent, phrasing and flow.



 






One thing that I had intended to include but didn't (now wish I had) is that in any good discussion a "definition of terms'' is important.. I KNEW my way of using the term "Pattern" in a way different than most Members would...would get me in trouble...I was stretching the definition..wink

Skookum - Posted - 02/24/2020:  16:54:05


What about the southern technique of finishing a phrase with a down bow and starting the next phrase still on a down bow? I think that's a powerful bowing pattern. To me, I'm thinking these "patterns" are merely ways to fit in notes without disturbing the rhythm. Johnathan Bekoff once told me that if the melody notes don't fit into his rhythm he just makes them fit in.

Some "patterns" seem to appear intuitively as your playing matures and some require some figuring out, but where you use them and the dosage helps characterize your style. It did Johnathan's. Tommy Jarrell had lots going on in his playing but to understand the basics you'd have to at least know his bowing patterns. After more of these techniques get incorporated into your music I'd think you have greater flexibility in creating a style that pleases you.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/24/2020:  17:21:47


Well put, Skookum, well put..

farmerjones - Posted - 02/24/2020:  18:09:34


I find it interesting, that Boeing had to close an entire model line because of software. Since retirement, that kinda stuff is no longer my problem. I never worked for Boeing, but. . . . . OHhh Bowing! That's different. Never mind.

gapbob - Posted - 02/24/2020:  18:38:46


One set of patterns that has not been discussed are the patterns that the bow hand makes during play.

C, U, O, rocking the bow, etc.  I would not try to identify them all.



 


Edited by - gapbob on 02/24/2020 18:39:24

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