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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: How about a bowing thread.....


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/52874

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bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  06:31:59


I have to admit, I kind of miss some of the spirited bowing discussions. I've been trying to teach myself to do a new pattern, for me at least. It works anywhere you have 8 eighth notes in a measure(unless the jumping across strings thing is happening). Pogo probably had a name for it, and maybe some of you will know that, but the pattern is: DUD, UUU(slurred), DU. In my mind it syncs well with a forward roll on the banjo and gives you this 123, 123, 12 feel. Anyway I'm liking it a lot, and its a totally different feel than the Nashville or Georgia shuffles, that I mostly use. Anyone else out there using this pattern? If so, where does it work particularly well for you. I'm currently liking it a lot on Sugar In The Gourd.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  06:45:09


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

I have to admit, I kind of miss some of the spirited bowing discussions. I've been trying to teach myself to do a new pattern, for me at least. It works anywhere you have 8 eighth notes in a measure(unless the jumping across strings thing is happening). Pogo probably had a name for it, and maybe some of you will know that, but the pattern is: DUD, UUU(slurred), DU. In my mind it syncs well with a forward roll on the banjo and gives you this 123, 123, 12 feel. Anyway I'm liking it a lot, and its a totally different feel than the Nashville or Georgia shuffles, that I mostly use. Anyone else out there using this pattern? If so, where does it work particularly well for you. I'm currently liking it a lot on Sugar In The Gourd.






I use that pattern extensively and Love it..I just call it "Play three, Slur three''...but of course you deed the DU at the end.. In practice, I'll attempt to use that pattern  throughout a tune, ..Try it on Saint Ann's Reel, or  even on Mississippi Sawyer.. Thanks for daring to start a bowint thread!!!



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/06/2020 06:46:00

indianajones - Posted - 02/06/2020:  10:55:38


I've seen these DUD, UUU bowing discussions before on this forum and I just go DUH, DUH, DUH. Lee, you talked about using this pattern and different patterns in St. Anne's reel in a different thread and I almost asked you then about it. I'm trying to learn this tune and I'm struggling a bit with it. Do you know if there are any video or audio examples of using this pattern in St. Anne's?

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  11:12:50


quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

I've seen these DUD, UUU bowing discussions before on this forum and I just go DUH, DUH, DUH. Lee, you talked about using this pattern and different patterns in St. Anne's reel in a different thread and I almost asked you then about it. I'm trying to learn this tune and I'm struggling a bit with it. Do you know if there are any video or audio examples of using this pattern in St. Anne's?






No, not aware of any.. As an exercise just use open strings and work on the hand brain coordination.. do the DUD, and then 'feel' three up notes in a row..then play the last two notes.. To get started..Play three...stop..play the slur three..stop, play the last to.. The 'stop'  is important.. it gives your brain a break so that confusion doesn't slip in.. This is a technique taught to me by a classical instructor.. it WORKS...



Like most things, you only have to learn it ONCE.. and you Can but you must be determined..Good luck.



 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/06/2020 11:15:51

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  11:14:09


I find with bowing its a matter of starting very slowly and deliberately, most likely on 1 string, and do the Down, Up, Down, Up, Up, Up(slur, 3 notes 1 motion). Down, Up, over and over again, until it becomes second nature, maybe like 10 minutes a day for several weeks, which might sound crazy, but once you've got it, my experience with bowing patterns is that the sub conscious , or whatever that is, takes over and they just insert themselves in the right place at the right time. I honestly don't think much at all about bowing, when I'm playing, but am certain I am constantly playing both Nashville and Georgia bowing patterns, its my hope to add this one, and yes if a video is out there I'd like to see it too.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  11:15:26


Great minds think alike, Lee, LOL

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  11:16:43


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

Great minds think alike, Lee, LOL






Obviously..



 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  11:38:31


Look Guys... Its like this..only on a fiddle.No photo description available.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  11:46:33


IndianaJones... can you read sheet music? If you can I'd be happy to send you sheet music for the tune indicating the 'play three-slur three' bowing..You could also come to my home since we both live in the same state and about nowhere is more than three hours away..

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  12:39:37



  • Sorry but I have NO idea how to rotate this image..Here is a quick throw down of notes indicating a POSSIBLE way to play St. Annes Reel.. This is an EXERCISE and is not intended to be the ultimate way to play the tune... This is about BOWING, and not this particular tune..although a lot of the bowing fits nicely in this tune..I've made the bowing the same on each measure as a teaching aid....nothing more...KEY OF DNo photo description available.


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/06/2020 12:53:56

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:01:42


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

.... gives you this 123, 123, 12 feel.



Anyone else out there using this pattern?






I often use a  123, 123, 12 rhythm or phrasing; I just think of it as part of the basic tresillo (332) family of rhythms (found in lots of music). But I don't think in strict bowing patterns, just sense of rhythm and accents, and create that from a variety of bow combinations and/or types of accent.



The ability to think 3s (over 2) is useful, can be extended over the bar to 2 measures; as in a juba rhythm.

boxbow - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:08:14


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

I've seen these DUD, UUU bowing discussions before on this forum and I just go DUH, DUH, DUH. Lee, you talked about using this pattern and different patterns in St. Anne's reel in a different thread and I almost asked you then about it. I'm trying to learn this tune and I'm struggling a bit with it. Do you know if there are any video or audio examples of using this pattern in St. Anne's?






No, not aware of any.. As an exercise just use open strings and work on the hand brain coordination.. do the DUD, and then 'feel' three up notes in a row..then play the last two notes.. To get started..Play three...stop..play the slur three..stop, play the last to.. The 'stop'  is important.. it gives your brain a break so that confusion doesn't slip in.. This is a technique taught to me by a classical instructor.. it WORKS...



Like most things, you only have to learn it ONCE.. and you Can but you must be determined..Good luck.



 






I recommend that, in addition, you also experiment with UUU as individual notes within the bow stroke and not just slurred.  Some call it pulsed bowing.  I always like to make an exercise work multiple skills.  I find myself using it quite a bit. 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:19:07


quote:

Originally posted by boxbow

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by indianajones

I've seen these DUD, UUU bowing discussions before on this forum and I just go DUH, DUH, DUH. Lee, you talked about using this pattern and different patterns in St. Anne's reel in a different thread and I almost asked you then about it. I'm trying to learn this tune and I'm struggling a bit with it. Do you know if there are any video or audio examples of using this pattern in St. Anne's?






No, not aware of any.. As an exercise just use open strings and work on the hand brain coordination.. do the DUD, and then 'feel' three up notes in a row..then play the last two notes.. To get started..Play three...stop..play the slur three..stop, play the last to.. The 'stop'  is important.. it gives your brain a break so that confusion doesn't slip in.. This is a technique taught to me by a classical instructor.. it WORKS...



Like most things, you only have to learn it ONCE.. and you Can but you must be determined..Good luck.



 






I recommend that, in addition, you also experiment with UUU as individual notes within the bow stroke and not just slurred.  Some call it pulsed bowing.  I always like to make an exercise work multiple skills.  I find myself using it quite a bit. 






You make a good point.. the up slur can be as complex as one cares to make it.. all a matter of personal preference..!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:31:15


I think that's the one Pogo called "Smooth Shuffle," a.k.a., "Rag Bow," if I'm remembering it right. Someone please correct me if I'm misremembering.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:32:49


No, I'm sorry...I just remembered, Smooth shuffle/ rag bow is more like d-- u-- du...sorry, I just now remembered. I can't think of what the op was called...I'm sure somehow somebody can look it up in the archives or something.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:38:46


play three slur three play two. THAT is its name!!

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:48:44


I'm good with that, its not exactly a catchy name, but its growing on me. LOL

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  14:57:50


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

I'm good with that, its not exactly a catchy name, but its growing on me. LOL






Much more important to be able to PLAY it and to be able to Say it..!!



What I've done a lot of is play a tune with the Play three, Slur three.. and then practice the same tune using only the Nashville Shuffle, and THEN, just using single stroke saw strokes, and THEN, using Slur two-Slur two bowing.. all just exercises.. I figure that If I can't do it... I can't teach it..!!! 


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/06/2020 15:00:27

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  15:18:40


Really good suggestions, Lee!

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  15:39:22


I found it, I hope this works, Pogo called it Sawshuffle, love this audio file. fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/me...archived=


Edited by - bandsmcnamar on 02/06/2020 15:40:35

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2020:  16:17:40


Pogo is one person I really miss a whole lot...though I knew him only online.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  16:31:29


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

I found it, I hope this works, Pogo called it Sawshuffle, love this audio file. fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/me...archived=






I hear that he did a slur 3, slur 3, play two.... Any combination works..


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/06/2020 16:32:51

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  18:11:26


That's what he calls smoothshuffle and he does alternate them, sometimes when he doesn't mean to I think. This stuff was so over my head back then, but makes a lot more sense to me now. Its good to revisit it. One of the greatest things about fiddling, is that there is always something else to learn and work on.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/06/2020:  18:14:09


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

That's what he calls smoothshuffle and he does alternate them, sometimes when he doesn't mean to I think. This stuff was so over my head back then, but makes a lot more sense to me now. Its good to revisit it. One of the greatest things about fiddling, is that there is always something else to learn and work on.






I completely avoided ALL of that at the time.. Way too much reading and not much in the form of sheet music or demos.. but that was then, this was now....

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  18:20:07


And just to follow up, if my ears are hearing it right, there is some of that pattern present in Fiddlepogo's version of St Anne's Reel  fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/me...rchived=.


Edited by - bandsmcnamar on 02/06/2020 18:20:57

Cyndy - Posted - 02/06/2020:  19:26:43


I look at that one as DU DUUU DU so even though there are three ups in a row, the accent actually makes it work out to 2s (or 4s), not 3s. My long-time teacher (David Bragger) calls that middle thing a "Georgia" but I'm not sure how universal that terminology is. :)



 

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/06/2020:  19:51:55


It is when the accents are done the way you show it, the difference would come in a second measure, Georgia would look like DUDUUUDU, UUDUUUDU, etc with the strong down bows on the 2 and 4, play 3 slur 3 play 2, or Sawshuffle, is just an pattern of 8 over and over, DUD, UUU, DU.

Cyndy - Posted - 02/06/2020:  20:05:14


If I played that pattern (which would be rare), I'd most likely do it like this:



DUDU UUDU UUDU UUDU



but I think people who put "Georgias" together often accent the D like this?



DU DUUU DUUU DUUU etc.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  05:41:52


There's a difference between Georgia Shuffle and Georgia Bow. Don't ask me what...lol.



I've come to love one that has a buncha names I first heard about on here, then knew to look for it and see where it was ever used...Some people call it Texas Bow, Missouri Bow, Kentucky Bow...who knows what else or where else...I think of it as Kentucky Bow, or dragging the bow, even though I know there's something different by that name. Naming things is sorta crazy, in the first place, but some of us love to have names anyhow.



But that, what I'm calling KY Bow, is just D- U- D- U-....slurring notes on each direction. It just yields a really nice chugging sound when you want it. I finally learned how to use it, love it, and sorry by then I couldn't show Pogo...you know, he always seemed sorta big brotherly-like and would seem proud if anything he had taken the effort to parse through on here ever really got through to somebody to actually play...lol. My experience. Too bad I couldn't show him my Ky Bow, but I use it all the time and love that I learned it.


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 02/07/2020 05:45:56

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  05:42:22


And what a great thing that we have a BOWING THREAD!!!!!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/07/2020:  05:43:34


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

And what a great thing that we have a BOWING THREAD!!!!!






Yeah!    I'm lost already!!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  05:50:00


I'm not into being overly contrived or structured....although that does work for people who are, but I love knowing the licks and shuffles that people have been able to isolate from good fiddlers and give us all a one-up in our own playing. I had a hard time learning some of them I saw on here...some i have yet to really see the utility of , but the ones I got, at first they were stiff and unnatural, but as I kept messin' with them here and there, I gradually got to know them, see the use of them and be able to throw them around pretty naturally. I used to stumble getting to them, but don't stumble so much with them anymore...although once in a while if you are playing and suddenly decide to do this lick or that, if you didn't decide fast enough, you're in for a possible train wreck...lol.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/07/2020:  05:59:41


Georgia is what I’d call one down three up like that. Fujers would have argued against that point until the cows came home smiley

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  06:28:15


Yes for sure. I miss him too. He came from the school where what most people now call Nashville Shuffle was adamantly known as Georgia Shuffle...lol...can't convince those folks of anything different.

I do think it's a great sign, when all the absolutely insanity going on in our own country and the whole world, fiddlers still see that what's really worth fighting for is what to do with the bow and then what to call it.

Peghead - Posted - 02/07/2020:  06:43:52


Here's my favorite bow pattern -



 

Cyndy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  06:56:46


Peghead At first glance, I thought that might be a fine example of every-which-way bowing but upon closer examination, I believe it's DUDUDUDU with bow rocking?

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/07/2020:  07:46:08


In previous bowing topics I always found myself lamenting that all I saw was DUDUDUDUD and not applications. That is why I posted sheet music showing what I was talking about.. Of course not everyone can read sheet music so the DUDUD will have to do..

gapbob - Posted - 02/07/2020:  08:06:12


The only reasons I can think of to learn bowing patterns are:
1) so that the fiddler can learn them
2) so that the fiddler can use them until he has incorporated them into his playing
After the learning and incorporation phases are done, then the fiddler just does what they feel, they become a part of their tool suite in their playing style. Whether you do dudud or dddu or duuu or ddddddd or uuuuu does not really matter, because it is your style that is important, how those patterns are used to create the sound that the player wants.

However, there is much more to bowing than the up/down patterns. Consider up/down, shuffles, etc., to be Bowing 101. The real bowing challenges are those that pertain to how the notes sound. Does the note squeak? Does it whistle, whine, make an odd noise when you start? Do the notes that are played evoke speech/song? Can you transition from one phrase to the next smoothly and without bow glitches, able to get all the notes wanted to be played with the right emphasis and dynamics? Dynamics is critical in playing, and most of the purpose of the bowing patterns is to implement an automated method of generating dynamics in your playing. Music is rhythm first, notes second, and it is easy to get caught up in the notes and forget the rhythm, but rhythm is "job one."

If your intonation sucks but your rhythm is just fine, you will be listenable and dance-able, but if your rhythm is off, your music will suck, regardless of how good your intonation and other window dressings are. Another thread topic would be about ensuring that your ornamentation does not affect rhythm (and intonation). I can hear in my mind so many otherwise good players whose rhythm sabotages their playing.

I have fluctuated in my preference between heavy and stiff bows to light bows, and back, and back. Right now I am enjoying my lighter bows, because they give me the ability to play faster, seem to bring out a warmer tone (though with less power), and give me more tools in my ornamentation.

I have also recently decided that I need to move my elbow out a skosh from my body, it is helping making a better tone, allowing my bowing to be a bit smother/longer.

For me, these aspects of bowing are more important than which direction I go, when.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/07/2020:  08:11:46


Ultimately, I rarely think about bowing these days but was paying attention to it yesterday after looking at this thread. Seems what I do is a downbow emphasis with the ability to play something one way then the other (upbow) as needed. Depending on the tune I might use every pattern a little (except hokum bowing), but I am not forcing the tune to fit my bow like I felt Pogo (rest in peace) did. His complaint was Nashville shuffle was too repetitive and uninteresting but I found the heavily accented way he (and many others) had with the odd syncopated shuffles seemed forced. Not every tune sounds good with the Tommy Jarrell bow lick (synchoshuffle). The three note slur Brian mentioned is useful, but I've never thought of it in pattern terms. I don't think I approach tunes that way at all anymore. If anything, I sawstroke much more these days.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/07/2020:  08:50:00


Man I'm loving this! I agree with Gapbob, that rhythm is the ultimate important factor. I also agree with Billy, some of what Pogo did with the patterns sounded contrived or constrained a bit. I also think of bowing patterns as a tool, and just as has been said, once you learn it, you then don't think about it, and it will find its appropriate place in your playing. The old joke about the difference between a violin and a fiddle, has lots of amusing answers, but one that always rings true with me, is: the violin is a melody instrument, the fiddle is a rhythm instrument. Musicality, I think is an ultimate goal, we're all on the journey at some level of progress, and developing more tools to use, moves us forward. I'm glad you all are out there, it's 100 percent true I wouldn't be halfway where I am today, with this fiddling thing, without all the input, knowledge, and practical advice I've received here over the last 11 years.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/07/2020:  10:52:13


The thing about bowing is that talking or notation can't come close to Watching/listening to someone play.. GAPBOB..is a case in point (talkin' about you Bob) You inspired me at CLifftop..... He has what I've called a 'choppy' way of saw stroking.. Last year I made several short videos of his right hand style and it is not just DUDUDU.. His approach to the string and attack with the bow And wrist all contribute to the effect he gets.. There is no way to get someone to duplicate what he does just by pointing it out on a bowing thread...As that old proverb says: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. And what it meant was that you had to try out food to know whether it was good... Bowing is the same..only watching/listening/playing substitute for eating..Reading about it is Not the same..


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/07/2020 10:53:31

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  12:06:59


Guys, this thread is really cookin' now...lol.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/07/2020:  12:39:51


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Guys, this thread is really cookin' now...lol.






The proof  of the thread is in the COOKIN'...



Billy had indicated that he's been saw stroking more lately.. Me also..especially since I've watched the Great And Powerful BOB... (hope we are not drifting too far from Brian's OP)..



The saw stroke is all about HOW the bow is applied... For years I almost exclusively played the Nashville, because I didn't know much better.. THEN... discovered  a Lot of other things I could do with my bow, simply because I finally had enough years under my belt and had  finally developed some of the hand-brain coordination needed .. STILL when listening to other  fiddlers like Hangout members in jams.. I'm humbled.. No.. not THAT Humbled.. That is another Hangout Member!!


Edited by - TuneWeaver on 02/07/2020 12:56:10

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  13:08:45


Ha...Humbled is the original Humbled...the rest of us are humbled too, though, if we play the fiddle! Well, yeah...I relied on N.Shuffle for a long time, then branched out some, then stopped thinking about it, then started thinking about it again, then visited, revisited, stop thinking about it, revisited bowing licks and shuffles, and blah, blah, blah...it's been a long journey for only 11 years of playing...I'm tellin' ya. I do think Nashville Shuffle is the mother of all shuffles...just because it's reversible, easy to use, easy to vary the rhythm or accents or whatever, easy to morph into the other shuffles, etc. To me, it's the grand mothership for traveling throughout our bowing universe. And it stands alone really well IF a person is careful with it. Just my humble opinion, because I'm "Humbled" too.


Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 02/07/2020 13:10:07

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/07/2020:  13:19:17


quote:

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Ha...Humbled is the original Humbled...the rest of us are humbled too, though, if we play the fiddle! Well, yeah...I relied on N.Shuffle for a long time, then branched out some, then stopped thinking about it, then started thinking about it again, then visited, revisited, stop thinking about it, revisited bowing licks and shuffles, and blah, blah, blah...it's been a long journey for only 11 years of playing...I'm tellin' ya. I do think Nashville Shuffle is the mother of all shuffles...just because it's reversible, easy to use, easy to vary the rhythm or accents or whatever, easy to morph into the other shuffles, etc. To me, it's the grand mothership for traveling throughout our bowing universe. And it stands alone really well IF a person is careful with it. Just my humble opinion, because I'm "Humbled" too.






I attended the Augusta Old Time Week in Elkins, many years ago.. We learned two tunes each morning and another two tunes each afternoon for five days ...20 tunes.. EVERY TUNE, was taught with the Nashville bowing.. THAT is just how important the instructors thought it was.. The instructors were Rafe Stefanani (spelling?) and Jerry Milnes... 

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 02/07/2020:  14:22:17


Don't worry about sticking to how this thread started, I'm loving it!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2020:  16:40:38


It's been a while since we've had a good ol' bowing thread.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/07/2020:  16:45:54


UUUDDDUDUDUUUUDDDUUDUD Keeps gettin' better..

gapbob - Posted - 02/07/2020:  16:48:26


Btw, thanks to TuneWeaver for your lovely compliments.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/07/2020:  16:54:19


quote:

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

Don't worry about sticking to how this thread started, I'm loving it!






"How about a bowing thread....." indeed.



If it's the wee rhythm ye be after, it's dancers ye should be playing for. There ye be having the opportunity to see how the beasty patterns really perform.  'Tis truly the tune and the dance that move the bow.  wink

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