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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Flat 5


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/49979

haggis - Posted - 09/28/2018:  09:32:31


Is this guitaristic idea used by, or of any use to fiddlers when improvising? There being 12 tones, 7 are found in a major scale. The 5 tones which are missing are to be found in the key of the dominant's flat 5 substitution. In English this means, in the key of A maj , all the non diatonic notes are found in the key of Bb. So all the flash/jazzy/bluesy extensions #'s and b's, particularly to the dominant chord, are to be found in the scale one semi tone above the tonic without really having to think about it ( once you have it under your fingers.)

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/28/2018:  13:10:17


Yeah, but the trick is to use the half-step up extensions as spice, not as a main ingredient. It's also good to sometimes consider the substitutions as being a half-step down, not a half-step up. What this does is lend the improvisation an ingratiatingly "aw shucks" sensibility.

DougD - Posted - 09/28/2018:  13:27:58


Not sure what you mean by "dominant's flat 5 substitution." In the key of A, does this mean the fifth of the dominant (B), lowered a half step to Bb? If so, this seems a long way around to say "a half step up." Also it seems easier to see in C and Db, since mixing a scale with sharps (A) and one with flats (Bb) muddies things up a bit - the white and black piano keys are easy to see. And as Ed said, a half step down (Ab) works too.
BTW this is why many Irish button accordions have two rows in keys a half step apart, instead of a fifth. That way, two diatonic scales make a chromatic instrument. I think B/C, C/C#, and D/Db are common combinations, IIRC.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/28/2018:  13:44:04


Hmm, the dominant flat 5 substitution of A is E flat and it does fill in the five missing notes of the key of A (E flat, F, G, B flat, and C) . But this does not put anything in a logical order.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/28/2018:  14:14:38


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Hmm, the dominant flat 5 substitution of A is E flat and it does fill in the five missing notes of the key of A (E flat, F, G, B flat, and C) . But this does not put anything in a logical order.






Yeah.  In any event, it all puts me back on my now well-worn soapbox.  Use your ears!  Not your book learnin'!devil

haggis - Posted - 09/29/2018:  04:48:17


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Hmm, the dominant flat 5 substitution of A is E flat and it does fill in the five missing notes of the key of A (E flat, F, G, B flat, and C) . But this does not put anything in a logical order.






Playing in the key of A major, yes, but the substitution is for the dominant of that key i.e. E dom chord which is substituted with it's flat 5..... Bb.

haggis - Posted - 09/29/2018:  04:51:29


quote:

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Hmm, the dominant flat 5 substitution of A is E flat and it does fill in the five missing notes of the key of A (E flat, F, G, B flat, and C) . But this does not put anything in a logical order.






Yeah.  In any event, it all puts me back on my now well-worn soapbox.  Use your ears!  Not your book learnin'!devil






My well worn adage is " All knowledge is power." Use all you can , including ears.

haggis - Posted - 09/29/2018:  04:54:00


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

Not sure what you mean by "dominant's flat 5 substitution." In the key of A, does this mean the fifth of the dominant (B), lowered a half step to Bb? If so, this seems a long way around to say "a half step up." Also it seems easier to see in C and Db, since mixing a scale with sharps (A) and one with flats (Bb) muddies things up a bit - the white and black piano keys are easy to see. And as Ed said, a half step down (Ab) works too.

BTW this is why many Irish button accordions have two rows in keys a half step apart, instead of a fifth. That way, two diatonic scales make a chromatic instrument. I think B/C, C/C#, and D/Db are common combinations, IIRC.






It is a long way round by way of explanation but, as I said, " In English this means......."

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/29/2018:  06:09:13


quote:

Originally posted by haggis

Is this guitaristic idea used by, or of any use to fiddlers when improvising? There being 12 tones, 7 are found in a major scale. The 5 tones which are missing are to be found in the key of the dominant's flat 5 substitution. In English this means, in the key of A maj , all the non diatonic notes are found in the key of Bb. So all the flash/jazzy/bluesy extensions #'s and b's, particularly to the dominant chord, are to be found in the scale one semi tone above the tonic without really having to think about it ( once you have it under your fingers.)






The instrument, fiddle or guitar... I don't see as how would make any difference, (at least if 12TET). The music mode and style would play a role.



I'm not sure what specific guitaristic idea you refer though...or what you are trying to explain; (I don't think I ever heard that). Nor how thinking about key Bb major (or Eb, Ab) when playing in A major would be particularly useful? Or how it would sound.



What does the dominant flat 5 "substitution" mean? Why Bb? Wouldn't the missing notes to A major are in the keys of Eb, Bb, and Ab. By nature of 7 out of 12; they all have to share 2 notes with A major.



Not saying it's wrong, something must make sense to "you", but I'm scratching my head... seems like extra rules or unneeded math... perhaps you have a link that could explain it better?


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/29/2018 06:12:03

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/29/2018:  06:47:55


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

Not sure what you mean by "dominant's flat 5 substitution." In the key of A, does this mean the fifth of the dominant (B), lowered a half step to Bb? If so, this seems a long way around to say "a half step up." Also it seems easier to see in C and Db, since mixing a scale with sharps (A) and one with flats (Bb) muddies things up a bit - the white and black piano keys are easy to see. And as Ed said, a half step down (Ab) works too.

BTW this is why many Irish button accordions have two rows in keys a half step apart, instead of a fifth. That way, two diatonic scales make a chromatic instrument. I think B/C, C/C#, and D/Db are common combinations, IIRC.






The piano and key of C are very visual. If I were playing in C; I would just think of the black keys simply as accidentals,  in that context not as another key/scale; just notes between the diatonic.



Interesting thought about the accordions, most Irish players I know have a B/C or D/C#. I tend to think of them as primarily in C or D with the other row flat; Indeed most tunes seem to fit more that primary row; D/C# boxes especially fit well with single row D melodeons;  with the other row a half step flat, so as to play accidental notes or closely related keys. (+/- one or two sharps). Ironically chromatic harmonicas are typically in C/C# and G/G#... again typically think of primarily in C or G but with the other row sharp to get accidentals or to get closely related keys. I guess it's just perspective.

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/29/2018:  07:25:47


Unneeded math! That's what I always think when reading these theory threads. smiley??????



 

boxbow - Posted - 09/29/2018:  08:07:44


Though we call it theory, it's really just a tool for description of some otherwise slippery nuances. Do-re-mi tells me one thing. Whole step, whole step, half step tells me another. My ear can also get that from a midi file.

haggis - Posted - 09/29/2018:  08:37:13


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

Originally posted by haggis

Is this guitaristic idea used by, or of any use to fiddlers when improvising? There being 12 tones, 7 are found in a major scale. The 5 tones which are missing are to be found in the key of the dominant's flat 5 substitution. In English this means, in the key of A maj , all the non diatonic notes are found in the key of Bb. So all the flash/jazzy/bluesy extensions #'s and b's, particularly to the dominant chord, are to be found in the scale one semi tone above the tonic without really having to think about it ( once you have it under your fingers.)






The instrument, fiddle or guitar... I don't see as how would make any difference, (at least if 12TET). The music mode and style would play a role.



I'm not sure what specific guitaristic idea you refer though...or what you are trying to explain; (I don't think I ever heard that). Nor how thinking about key Bb major (or Eb, Ab) when playing in A major would be particularly useful? Or how it would sound.



What does the dominant flat 5 "substitution" mean? Why Bb? Wouldn't the missing notes to A major are in the keys of Eb, Bb, and Ab. By nature of 7 out of 12; they all have to share 2 notes with A major.



Not saying it's wrong, something must make sense to "you", but I'm scratching my head... seems like extra rules or unneeded math... perhaps you have a link that could explain it better?






 This relates to any key and, more specifically. playing/improvising over the dominant chord, which in certain genres is the chord which is " messed " around with most in my opinion. So, the flat 5 chord ( relative to the dominant in question) is sometimes substituted for a dominant 7 chord because the notes of a flat 5 contain the non diatonic extensions. In other words. In the key of A major E7 would be the dominant chord, Bb7 would be it's flat 5 substitution.Bb,D,F,G are the chord tones which relative to E7 are the b3,b5,b7 & b9 extensions. Also one finds that Bb is the flat 5 of E while E is the flat 5 of Bb, a tritone. The scale of Bb is handy for getting that outside sound. Yes , it can be seen as a semi tone up from home but not all tunes stay at home. A long winded explanation I know but I suppose you could equally spend as much time explaining the whys and wherefores of chords or scales one plays. Guitaristic because it is a chordal concept , but you are correct in that music is music .Originally I did only ask if it was an idea fiddlers used? I do think bluesy / jazzy player may use it? 


Edited by - haggis on 09/29/2018 08:42:18

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/29/2018:  12:52:00


Pondering this one.....i like to use the substitution you speak of as a pre-dominant chord, arpeggio or mode, to improvise with on the fiddle, while the accompaniment plays the dominant, or in other words hold the sharpened V7,(dirty and bluesy), Major 6, or Major7, or just Major (smooth Jazz), over the V7 chord, creating even more tension over the V7 chord,... or implying a "Neapolitan 6" chord over (or before) the the V7,.. just like extending the chord progression, while the accompaniment plays the basic V7-I,  or,   IIm7 V7 I, ...the longer i can hold the substitution(s) before the V7 the more tension...



Edit:  works nicely in minor progressions as well


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 09/29/2018 12:53:20

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/29/2018:  18:25:38


Sounds like tritone substitution chords is what you might be describing?  The 2 chord share but invert the same third and m7.   Can use to create a chromatic chord run  from II to I. (that is instead of B to E7 to A; uses B to Bb7 to A).  But tritone substitution chords are not just the flat second; can use in other places; and doesnt have anything to do with if or which notes are non-diatonic. In a I to IV progression, A to A7 to D could be replaced with A to Eb7 to D. 



That probably is more guitaristic just in that it seems more a chord device than melodic device.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/29/2018 18:41:31

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/29/2018:  23:28:03


Probably is Guitar/chord oriented, but i use modes like extended chords to play on and around the melody, or to re-enforce or play against the accompaniment, so to me, for example: Dorian Mixolydian Ionian is  IIm7 V7 I...etc, and i substitute or alter them as i would play around or substitute  "chord shapes" on a guitar, or as fingering "positions" to play the melody and know where i am on the fingerboard.

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