fiddledan - Posted - 08/23/2018:  10:51:51

I am sure this has been discussed before but I don't see a thread currently active.

Over the years I have written 14 books for Mel Bay - both Clawhammer Banjo and Old Time Fiddle. I have usually defaulted to quarter and eighth notes (which connotes 4/4 time) as it seemed to be what most writers over the years did and it looked cleaner than having strings of 16th notes on the page.

Other than it's relationship to the metronome (120 bpm in 2/4 is twice as fast as 120 in 4/4) I don't see anything to cause a "need" to use 2/4 over 4/4 when writing.

I am about to start 2 new projects which are more fiddle (standard notation vs. tab) oriented and wondered if there was any practical reason to start writing in 2/4.

Play Nice,
Dan Levenson
Clawdan.com
Author - Fiddle From Scratch - a Mel Bay Publication

Slide - Posted - 08/23/2018:  11:09:22

I've bought a few of your books as well as some very popular ones that use 2/4. The 2/4 took a while to get used to and I had to mentally convert the notes into 4/4 until I got the hang of it. I can use both now but 4/4 still always seems more clean and easy to use. If you started out reading 2/4 instead of 4/4 like I did, your experience could be the opposite. Then again, I'm not sure many started that way.

DougD - Posted - 08/23/2018:  11:40:58

My two cents-
4/4 time signature denotes four beats per measure, like a fox trot (I think the historical popularity of the fox trot is why you see this signature so often). Fiddle tunes are usually felt as two beats per measure, so to me 4/4 is completely misleading.
The problem with 2/4 is that it ends up with a cluttered page with all those flags, which is difficult for some people to read. I think a better solution is 2/2, or cut time. This gives the correct idea of two beats per measure, and a less cluttered page.
I suggest you take a look at Ryan's Mammoth Collection to see the possibilities and differences. None of the reels are written in 4/4.
BTW, I don't think the use of quarter and eighth notes connotes any particular time signature, although I think I know what you mean (the absence of sixteenth notes as in 2/4).

gapbob - Posted - 08/23/2018:  12:09:47

There is a difference. IMHO, the best players DO play 4/4, those smaller beats in between the big ones get attention.



Watch someone who beats time with their feet, such that they are beating 1, 2, 3, 4. Their playing soars.



youtu.be/JcxqWI93LCc?t=106

There is a big difference, actually.

Edited by - gapbob on 08/23/2018 12:11:11

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/23/2018:  13:22:44

4/4 implies that beat number three, though stressed, is less stressed than beat number one. 2/4 implies a true Left! Right! march tempo with beats one and three equally stressed. In other words (sorry Doug, I disagree), 4/4 has more of the melodic flow we hear and subconsciously play when it comes to most fiddle tunes.

BanjoBrad - Posted - 08/23/2018:  13:58:07

Having used most of your books (for both instruments), and having grown up on Classical guitar, and not being a real, trained, musician, I have to admit that I find 4/4 & 3/4 times as the easiest for me to follow. I notice that besides the 'cleanness' of these times (the lack of all those flags) is, indeed, easier to follow on the page, and I seem to default to these time signatures in most of what I play.

I know the difference in stressing between the different time signatures, but seem to be hard-wired at this point in time to falling into the 3/4 or 4/4 stress, at least until I know the tune and start trying to make it fit with other players (which I don't get to do much anymore).

I guess it depends on the person who will be using your materials, but if you're going to be attempting to follow the original works, and are aiming towards more experienced players, not beginners, I'd go with the 'proper' timing.

fidlpat - Posted - 08/23/2018:  14:11:36

sometimes cut time is indicated, with a C, for common time, but with a slash through it. I like it best, as 2/2. two beats to the measure, the half note gets the beat.
gives four eighth notes to a metronome clack, and still writes like 4/4, though with 4 groups of eighth notes as normal, seems,,,neater, I guess.
Whatever works,,,,,

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 08/24/2018:  07:00:38

Hmmmm … often wondered about this. Thanks for the discussion and view points. R/

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/30/2018:  02:20:12

Practical reasons of what sig, starts without unneeded complexity (artificial rules and myths)...  Meter is not the same as rhythm, feel, nor accent or stress. Meter is the organizational frame that rhythm sits on top of. So simply the meter that can best represents or describes the organization in the easiest straight forward way; esp when can match the just listen and feel perception. 

A few simple aspects for top number.

1. The primary perceived steady continuous pulse. What might often be called "THE BEAT"; the main pulse that listener would feel weight; dance to, sway, head bob, toe-tapping...to clap along with...  and referred to as bpm.  This main pulse also helps in having a universal reference to tempos. (120bpm is 120bpm)

2. The measure length/grouping; where ONE is; - describes the number of those primary pulses for the length of a measure (to next ONE); or that the measure is perceived simply as feel of 2, 3;  - or 4 (usually as C example below, double bar feel of 2/x, or 2 bars combined as one, felt as 2x2 [12][34]). 

3. The other aspect is whether simple meter (2/x. 3/x, 4/x) or compound meter (6/x, 9/x, 12/x). 

Another consideration is that beaming of notes consistent with the metric group can help readability, Can illustrate the measure perceived as in 2 or 4, or how many notes are under beat.... (quarter notes can't beam). 

Here are some examples. 

Most fiddle tune collections I've seen, esp older ones or by more proficient notation folks, are  A, B or C examples. The D examples (and rules) seems more recent, starting in the 1960's; often by less trained.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/30/2018 02:34:52

Eric Sprado - Posted - 12/07/2018:  18:06:53

What do you want the bass line to sound/feel like? Bass lines for 4/4 are different than 2/4... Affects feel of the tune. When I was back up fiddler in bands as a young man(fifty years ago) I remember being chewed out for not adhering to the specific timing. Break timing is completely different...

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/07/2019:  08:13:42

If Dan plans on getting revenge on some readers, using 2/4 time would "do the job". I like "cut" time and appreciate having books that use it. 2/4 time seems "cluttered". I use "cut" time and 4/time so often I seem to automatically start using it when I look at notation.

Some book publishers don't seem to consider possible user response to their publications.