tpquinn - Posted - 05/19/2018:  13:35:40

Is there an app that anyone can recommend that will play the note tones, preferably ones in 1st position on the fiddle for starters, so I can listen and help train to my ear to identify the note? It would be nice to be able to set it up to play random notes to quiz the ears rather than just knowing it's going up or down the strings on a particular scale. Not yet being as accurate as I'd like on the fingerboard, playing the notes myself isn't proving to be very efficient, even with a tuner.

Jaso'n, I listened to your webinar on playing in tune (quite interesting, thank you) and you mentioned 'I Tabla' if I heard correctly to help with drones; however, looking for that on Google Playstore doesn't turn it up specifically, but rather multiple apps with Tabla in the title that seem to perhaps be geared toward Indian music. Anyway to help narrow it down?

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/19/2018:  13:55:49

What your asking for would seem a waste of time to me. Why do you need an app to hear the notes on a fiddle? Tune up your fiddle an there they are. And identifying random notes, in what way do you mean? Know what name they are? Sounds like you are trying to avoid learning how to play music by spending your energy on obtuse things. I don't mean to be discouraging as it sounds like you are a beginning player. But doing things like you describe isn't likely to be helpful. You need to actually play a lot. Your intonation will improve over time.



Every day listen to a lot of fiddle music of the kind you want to play. Learn some easy tunes. There are some useful apps that do help your playing, like showing you if you're speeding up or not. Recently Peterson put out a very good app for tuning. I notice it is also good for checking intonation as you play. If you don't know anything at all about reading music then trying to identify note names in a vacuum isn't helpful. Do that later and learn some easy tunes first.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 05/19/2018 13:57:19

echord - Posted - 05/19/2018:  14:19:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by tpquinn

Is there an app that anyone can recommend that will play the note tones, preferably ones in 1st position on the fiddle for starters, so I can listen and help train to my ear to identify the note? It would be nice to be able to set it up to play random notes to quiz the ears rather than just knowing it's going up or down the strings on a particular scale. Not yet being as accurate as I'd like on the fingerboard, playing the notes myself isn't proving to be very efficient, even with a tuner.



Jaso'n, I listened to your webinar on playing in tune (quite interesting, thank you) and you mentioned 'I Tabla' if I heard correctly to help with drones; however, looking for that on Google Playstore doesn't turn it up specifically, but rather multiple apps with Tabla in the title that seem to perhaps be geared toward Indian music. Anyway to help narrow it down?

---

Unless you are blessed with perfect pitch (as maybe 1 in 10,000 people are) it will take a long time to learn to recognized the pitch of a given tone without any other reference --- but learning when a note you are playing on the fiddle is sharp or flat will come pretty quickly with regular practice. I agree with Abinigia -- the best way to learn the fiddle is to pick it up and start playing. Everybody sounds horrible at first, but that will pass quickly if you keep at it (and if your fiddle is correctly tuned). 

Edited by - echord on 05/19/2018 14:20:19

tpquinn - Posted - 05/19/2018:  15:11:52

Well, this doesn't seem to be going the way I had hoped and really didn't expect to get bashed for asking the question. A little background: I've been learning/playing for 2 yrs in June (so yes, I am a beginner), try to practice at least an hour each day, 1.5-2 hrs on the weekends, and my teacher says my intonation is coming along nicely which I take to mean that I'm on par with the average non-talented person trying to learn to play. I have scores of fiddle tunes on my phone and multiple on-line music services that stream the type of music I'm interested in. Basically, it's all I listen to. Oh, and I can read music.

But trying to work on my ability to learn a tune by ear, I was wondering if there was something additional that could help me learn to identify a note when I hear it rather than just when I'm playing it: think an imaginary person playing random notes to help the process of identifying a note (e.g. a C played on the A string vs a B played on the A). Maybe that's simple for some people, but it's not for me.

There are times during the day when I can't be holding the fiddle so, regardless if what you may think it sounds like ("trying to avoid learning how to play music by spending your energy on obtuse things"), I was just asking if perhaps there might be another 'tool in the toolbox'. Maybe such a beast doesn't exist so, as Peter says, it will just take a long to to learn to recognize the pitch without any other reference. If that's the case, then so be it.

buckhenry - Posted - 05/19/2018:  15:37:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by tpquinn

 another 'tool in the toolbox'. 

---

I think you would benefit by learning the ''intervals'', that helps you hear what succession of the melodic notes are. Then you could learn how to hear what key the tune is in which will help you recognize the notes are being played. Then you would learn the chord progression giving you more notes to hear.  

tpquinn - Posted - 05/19/2018:  16:36:11

Thanks Henry, I'll work on that approach.

amwildman - Posted - 05/19/2018:  16:36:38

Pat, I don't have any specific apps in mind, but I have looked at ear trainer apps in the Android store in the past. Most of them have a free version, so you could easily try a few of them out and see which one(s) seem the most applicable to fiddle music.

I don't know why the curmudgeonly advice. If you want to try it, go for it. It won't cost anything or hurt anything or anybody.

FWIW, it took me a couple or three years as an adult beginner to pick up the tunes by ear fairly quickly. At first it took me a week or two to get it memorized. After about 3, I could get a tune mostly down after an hour or two. It takes awhile for the brain to get rolling on these things. Learning lots of tunes, even if you forget most of them, will help the process tremendously.

tpquinn - Posted - 05/19/2018:  16:46:52

Thanks Aaron, I'll browse the apps.

And 2-3 yrs? That puts it in good perspective. I'm working on a tune I recorded my teacher playing, for this specific purpose, and have been frustrated trying to learn it by ear. May just really need to devote more time to it.

buckhenry - Posted - 05/19/2018:  16:55:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by tpquinn

May just really need to devote more time to it.

---

This is really the key to any musical endeavor. Some aspects you maybe very good at, but we must work on our weaknesses and never throw in the towel not matter how long it takes or how quickly you think you should be learning it. 

amwildman - Posted - 05/19/2018:  17:00:28

In my case, I was learning strictly Irish music, so many snippets and phrases applied to other tunes. Not sure how much dissimilarity of mixing genres might affect the speed of learning.

The three things i found that were really common between tunes were the aforementioned phrases, little scale runs, and arpeggios. The first just takes time, the second you probably already know, but the third is where you can get some practical hands-on gains.

For example, if you learn G B D, how to play it and how to hear it, when you run across it in a tune, it becomes automatic. That is 3 notes less that you have to learn on the fly. 8 or so different arpeggios will give you a bunch more tools for your fiddling tool box. Hearing is good, but the hands-on practical part is particularly applicable to what we're doing.

tpquinn - Posted - 05/19/2018:  17:28:30

Thanks again. I'll compile all the tips people have and work them into my practice routine.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/19/2018:  19:45:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by tpquinn

Well, this doesn't seem to be going the way I had hoped and really didn't expect to get bashed for asking the question.

 

---

Okay, that was me. Sorry. Now that you’ve explained more, it sounds to me like you’re doing lots of good things. But I still don’t understand your idea that learning to identify random notes would be helpful. Music involves recognizing patterns of notes, scales and tunes. The flash-card approach you seem to suggest just doesn’t seem very musical. Maybe you should hum to yourself all the time to help ingrain the melodies that way, when you can’t be playing. 

Edited by - Brian Wood on 05/19/2018 19:48:14

bluenote23 - Posted - 05/19/2018:  20:33:12

I've been playing a little less than two years so this might be the blind leading the blind but my greatest revelation was watching a Youtube video by Eddy Chen called 'The secret to violin intonation': youtube.com/watch?v=kJO_00_ixr4

This is a classical violin lesson but intonation is intonation. In short, he says a couple of important things.



One is sing what you play. If you can sing it, you can play it. Now this works for intonation and also for memorizing tunes. You just sing (in tune) and then play what you sing. It's really that simple. If you want to learn a piece by ear, just sing it and play it.



When the music gets more complex you can 'sing' in your head but sometimes, especially when you're working on intonation, you really just need to sing it out loud.



Second (which works in conjunction with singing) is to listen to what you play. So you sing and listen and if the notes aren't the same, then you have to work on that. Sometimes, I get so wound up with holding the instrument right and holding the bow right and watching my elbow and my fingers and worrying about the notes that I forget about listening to what I play. So I always need a space in by brain (that's crowded with all that other stuff) where I just listen when I play. If it doesn't sound right, it's not right.



Now, this may not work for you. I have mentionned this to other players at other times and it just seems like they can't hear themselves or they can't match up the sound in their head and the sound coming out of the instrument. But watch the video and give this a try. It may be really helpful.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/20/2018:  00:15:10

Here's some free ear training software to identify intervals and modes, not easy though..or fiddle specific

sourceforge.net/projects/solfege/

Earworm - Posted - 05/20/2018:  05:29:04

Don't forget that a lot of fiddle music is recorded in alternate tunings, if that's your primary source for tunes. Also in the old recordings, the pitch may have actually slipped, on account of the old tape stretching out. This way, madness lies ... 

Edited by - Earworm on 05/20/2018 05:31:54

stumpkicker - Posted - 05/20/2018:  05:58:49

Now I use an iPad, but Take a look at “violin fingers” and “Playalong violin”, They have free versions you can check out, they might be close to 2hat 6ou are looking for. Also go to Fiddlerman’s site and search for the lessons on drones.
Good Luck.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/20/2018:  07:03:19

rustykat.us/vlhelp.php

tpquinn - Posted - 05/20/2018:  09:34:24

Brian, no worries. Perhaps you're right that learning to ID specific notes won't be all that helpful compared to patterns of notes. Just still trying to get a grasp of all this music stuff and I'll keep that viewpoint in mind.

Thanks Ted, for the link to the Eddy Chen video. I've seen a few of his and have found them helpful, but hadn't seen this one.

I'll also check out the other links mentioned in posts. It may just be that it will take more time yet to get the notes ingrained in my memory banks.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/20/2018:  09:46:32

I don't think they were bashing... just pointing out observations

Ear training; means different things; depends on what you wish to accomplish. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tpquinn

But trying to work on my ability to learn a tune by ear, I was wondering if there was something additional that could help me learn to identify a note when I hear it rather than just when I'm playing it: think an imaginary person playing random notes to help the process of identifying a note (e.g. a C played on the A string vs a B played on the A). Maybe that's simple for some people, but it's not for me.

 

---

This seems to be along the idea of pitch memorization for ear training, with belief that being able hear a random note and instantly know if B or C or Eb or C#... thus thinking foundation be able to "play bey ear".

There are advertised courses, teachers, books, CDs, DVDs , websites, and software for that method, to learn to memorize pitches. Some claim they learned to memorize, (others not so much) - YMMV. 

But IMO, many spend a lot of time doing that, and it's not really much advantage to advance playing by ear, picking up tunes. Playing by ear really doesn't require that skill.  There are better alternatives for by ear skills (and embraces much more); better bang for the buck.

Music isn't just sequence of random pitches... but exists in musical context, it's notes fit organized structures, with various schemas to the music. Developing a sense for recognizing schema, goes a long way to "by ear".  There are many different ways folks develop that; mostly it's just listening and paying attention. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/20/2018:  12:30:27

one more link
childrensmusicworkshop.com/mus...0_en.html

test of myself
youtube.com/watch?v=n6UwB-PF4SI

tpquinn - Posted - 05/20/2018:  17:26:51

Thank for your insight, Geo. I'll certainly keep all this in mind. After reading through everyone's input, I spent about 2 hrs on a very rainy day today trying to learn a tune my teacher recorded for me to practice this very thing. It was quite an arduous task, but I think I began to see the point of focusing more on patterns rather than individual notes.

And thanks for the link Richard. You certainly passed with flying colors!

Dan Gellert - Posted - 05/21/2018:  08:36:25

I'll reiterate what bluenote said: SING!

Your OP seemed to be asking how to acquire a sense of absolute ("perfect") pitch. That is analogous to a visual artist having the ability to measure an object precisely without using a ruler-- a potentially useful skill, but.... If you're just starting to learn how to draw, how much would it help you to know that that #$*#% apple is exactly 2.85 inches in diameter?

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/21/2018:  09:47:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

I'll reiterate what bluenote said: SING!



Your OP seemed to be asking how to acquire a sense of absolute ("perfect") pitch. That is analogous to a visual artist having the ability to measure an object precisely without using a ruler-- a potentially useful skill, but.... If you're just starting to learn how to draw, how much would it help you to know that that #$*#% apple is exactly 2.85 inches in diameter?

---

From what I know of it perfect pitch isn't very useful for musicians. It can even be an annoyance for many reasons. I wouldn't bother with trying to acquire it. Every musician needs good relative pitch, the a knack for hearing melodies and harmonies. (Think of relative pitch as in knowing a tune, and it doesn't matter what key it's played in, it's the same tune). I think that's what a lot of us are trying to say here, and why humming and singing is a good habit for getting melodies in your head. For what it's worth, growing up I used to sing along with the radio like everybody, but I often found a harmony that wasn't there and sang that. Now I can do that at jams. I intuitively hear in 3rds and 5ths with melodies (melodies consisting of relative pitches spread out, harmonies being relative pitches stacked). Practicing relative pitches is the key to it all.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 05/21/2018:  10:27:11

Right!
I don't have an absolute sense of pitch, and have always thought that if I did, it would be an awfully annoying distraction.

A lot of good musicians do have absolute pitch, and I don't think I've ever heard one complain about it, so good for them, but I'm happy to be without it.

Beardog - Posted - 05/21/2018:  11:13:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

Right!

I don't have an absolute sense of pitch, and have always thought that if I did, it would be an awfully annoying distraction.



A lot of good musicians do have absolute pitch, and I don't think I've ever heard one complain about it, so good for them, but I'm happy to be without it.

---

I agree, sir. 

Hearing pitch intervals is very important to playing by ear, perhaps absolutely essential. But, that is totally different than having some nebulous ability to ascertain "perfect pitch".  Just sitting down with any fretted instrument (or a piano), and playing (and carefully listening to) all of the 1/2 step intervals between the starting note and the octave is great practice (minor second, major second, minor third, major third, perfect fourth, and so on. I can't remember all the classical theory names for each interval off the top of my head at the moment.)

fidlpat - Posted - 05/21/2018:  11:22:08

having a good sense of Relative Pitch is the useful thing to have

zorba - Posted - 05/22/2018:  10:24:34

Here are two apps that I have found useful.



InTune - helps improve and test intonation - game like app where you identify if the tone is sharp or flat

itunes.apple.com/us/app/intune...1793?mt=8



Ear Training Course - helped me learn about intervals, scales, chords

itunes.apple.com/us/app/ear-tr...6901?mt=8

Both are for IOS

 

Edited by - zorba on 05/22/2018 10:25:11

Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/22/2018:  15:22:28

Canadian fiddler Gordon Stobbe sells a book/CDs full of fiddle exercises (i.e. The "Red" book). If you read musical notation, the book/CDs are helpful in lots of ways. Unlike many instructional books, it DOES NOT include things that don't interest fiddlers.

As far as intonation goes, I had a member who is a professional violinist/fiddler record one and two active scale exercises. Those scale exercises did the job.

martynspeck - Posted - 05/23/2018:  10:27:45

Intonia is my favorite tool for this: intonia.com/index.shtml



Install it on your computer, he's got a droid version now too, and when you play it will show you whether you are in tune or not and precisely what pitch you are playing.



That said, when using it, you have to remember that you're training your ear and your fingers. Once you find where the right note is, you should close your eyes and work the feeling into your fingers.



Also, you can turn it on, play your tune and it will record your playing. Then you can go back over the recording and see where you were in and out of tune. Practice those sections to get them in tune and check them again with the program.



 

Edited by - martynspeck on 05/23/2018 10:28:05

tpquinn - Posted - 05/26/2018:  08:34:15

I've downloaded a couple of apps (Easy Violin Notes and Perfect Ear) that may be of some use when I can't have the fiddle in hand and am reviewing the pc programs.

After reading the thread and everyone's advice a couple of times, I had some questions for my teacher at my lesson this past Wednesday which ended up taking the whole 1.5 hr lesson time, but it was really good for helping me understand where I'm at and managing my expectations. I did have tape on my finger board and, although about half had worn off with the rest getting skewed around, it still gave me a relative starting point for placing my fingers. My initial post stemmed from seeing that the tape was about to go and concern I'd be lost on the board without the guide and not trusting myself yet to be able to recognize the note I wanted to play. I don't want to rekindle a discussion on the pros and cons of using tape; I can see both sides of the argument as it helped in some regards and didn't in others. But it's gone now and, thankfully, my muscle memory is better than I thought it would be.

Back to the lesson, we worked on me focusing on hearing the notes, singing them (or trying to), thirds and fourths, and more that's really been covered in this discussion. The thread has strayed wide from "Product Reviews and Shopping Advice", but it's all been very helpful and for that I thank you. Now back to the woodshed.

boxbow - Posted - 05/26/2018:  09:18:16

I'd also like to recommend a book called "This Is Your Brain On Music." Written by Daniel Levitin. It doesn't specifically address your perfectly legitimate questions. It talks about the interaction between the musical mind and various musical processes. Your question lies in the middle of that field as I see it. I found it to be a revelation and I modified some of my practice routines accordingly.

tpquinn - Posted - 05/26/2018:  10:13:22

Thanks for the tip, Walter. My b-day is coming up so this book and Stobbe's "Red Book" seem the perfect gift to myself.

Duckinacup - Posted - 05/26/2018:  11:37:27

Might give Amazing Slow Downer a look.  One can select speeds without affecting pitch, and specific parts can be looped forever.  There's a free version, too, at ronimusic.com/

Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/28/2018:  07:18:39

I agree with the post that recommends using software like "The Amazing Slow Downer". There are also other apps that will do this, but I haven't used them and can't comment on them. But I use "The Amazing Slow Downer" more than any other software. Here are some reasons why -

1. I can easily change tempo - faster or slower.
2. Easy to change keys.
3. All or parts of tunes can be "looped" the designated number of times. And tempo can be increased by a designated percentage for each loop.
4. I uses playlists. This may not sound important, but for me it is a big help. I maintain a separate directory for each fiddler. The playlist lets me create a playlist that contains tunes from the different directories.

I use the software for just about every aspect of banjo, fiddle, and guitar playing. I download rhythm files from the "fbbts.com" website, and play them using ASD. I also use "Band in a Box". I am almost sure the "fbbts.com" files were created using BIAB.

Good Luck

I have "Amazing Slow Downer" for decades. Problem free and easy to use. Not that expensive either.

tpquinn - Posted - 05/28/2018:  12:30:41

Thanks, Mike, Dick, and Tommy (from the Fakebook thread) for your thoughts regarding "The Amazing Slow Downer". That sounds like something I could definitely use.

DougD - Posted - 05/28/2018:  13:37:10

I think a good and efficient way to train your ear would be to get a CD of music you like (or individual mp3 files) and the Amazing Slow Downer (you can try the free version, which is quite capable). Then take the music a phrase at a time, loop it, and slow it down. Try and play the phrase, or at least sing it. As you progress, you'll not only be training your ear, but learning some tunes you like.
Years ago I was having a little late night one-on-one session with a quite well known (and very good) guitarist. I asked him how he went about learning fiddle tunes to play on the guitar. He said to find the first note. Then the next note would be either higher or lower, or the same. Once you find that one, move on to the next, and so on. Still pretty good advice.
Good luck!

tpquinn - Posted - 05/28/2018:  14:58:14

That's brilliant! Love it.

FiddleHed - Posted - 07/17/2018:  14:34:07

Hey Pat,

Sorry to chime in so late in the game.

I haven't read this whole thread, but there are apps that analyze your pitch, like Intonia.

Some folks like this. I recommend using drones to slowly build your sense of pitch. This way you train your ear instead of relying on an app to tell you whether you're in tune.

The basic idea:
-Play each note of a scale with its drone note (for D1 play with E drone, for D2 play with F# drone)
-Tune up each single note
-Practice intervals. So if you're trying to get better at playing D3(G) than use a G drone and play D1-3, D0-3 etc.
-practice playing the note, then singing it while the drone plays.
-Practice audiation: hearing that note in your head. This is the "jedi-knight" method.

Try out some or all these ideas. I have a free course on this: How to Play In Tune.
fiddlehed.com/how-to-play-in-tune/

Cheers,
jaso'n

tpquinn - Posted - 07/19/2018:  17:15:06

Thanks Jaso'n,

I downloaded Intonia and like what it does, especially as it says I'm not too far off, echoing my teacher's opinion during my lesson yesterday.

He also recommended the drone approach and I'll be taking your thoughts above, along with others posted here, and incorporate them into my practice routine. My teacher also thinks I'm obsessing too much over it, so I'm trying to not stress about it, be diligent with practice, and "trust the process".

I'll check out your course on how to play in tune. I think I may have seen it, but worth a revisit.

Thanks all,

Duckinacup - Posted - 07/20/2018:  05:54:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by tpquinn

Well, this doesn't seem to be going the way I had hoped and really didn't expect to get bashed for asking the question. A little background: I've been learning/playing for 2 yrs in June (so yes, I am a beginner), try to practice at least an hour each day, 1.5-2 hrs on the weekends, and my teacher says my intonation is coming along nicely which I take to mean that I'm on par with the average non-talented person trying to learn to play. I have scores of fiddle tunes on my phone and multiple on-line music services that stream the type of music I'm interested in. Basically, it's all I listen to. Oh, and I can read music.



But trying to work on my ability to learn a tune by ear, I was wondering if there was something additional that could help me learn to identify a note when I hear it rather than just when I'm playing it: think an imaginary person playing random notes to help the process of identifying a note (e.g. a C played on the A string vs a B played on the A). Maybe that's simple for some people, but it's not for me.



There are times during the day when I can't be holding the fiddle so, regardless if what you may think it sounds like ("trying to avoid learning how to play music by spending your energy on obtuse things"), I was just asking if perhaps there might be another 'tool in the toolbox'. Maybe such a beast doesn't exist so, as Peter says, it will just take a long to to learn to recognize the pitch without any other reference. If that's the case, then so be it.

---

It happens is all online forums, regretfully.  There's always a group, or several groups, that are adamant that newcomers aren't smart enough to type coherent sentences despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  Their way is the only way, and god help anyone who disagrees.  Add in the fact that, since they are the old hands, they are perpetually protected by all the other old hands.  It's why I seldom post here, anymore.  Or even come around with any regularity.  There are other places to find information and help without the constant drone of "I'm better than you" from those cliques.