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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Pentatonic Scale Theory


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mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/31/2018:  08:53:37


Charts show how to move MAJOR SCALE FINGER PATTERNS around the fingerboard in order to easily produce tonal variations. The chart is completely in the key of C as an example. The +/- indications show where to move the MAJOR pentatonic pattern in order to accomplish the juxtapositions. The blue row will generate the straight tones, kind of like home base. Let's say for example you want to change the MAJOR to a MINOR. The chart says to move +3/-9 so if you are in the key of C you would slide up or down into the key of Eb and play the same finger patterns that you just did. The second chart shows a virtual fingerboard where these distances can be found from ground zero. BTW use the YouTube links to play your improvisations over the key of C.


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/31/2018 18:53:08


haggis - Posted - 03/31/2018:  16:06:10


Very complicated for beginners. I suggest learning a major pentatonic. That done simply identify it's relative minor and, Bob's your uncle, you have both a minor and a major pentatonic using exactly the same finger pattern. Do it with any key you wish to learn............................. for a good start.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/31/2018:  16:57:56


Wow, that looks so complicated, give me a couple of hours to work it out. Mean while check out my theory of the pentatonic scale..........



 

fujers - Posted - 03/31/2018:  18:42:37


Just stick with one key..find the pentatonic notes and it's olny 5 notes and then wala you have a scale. I don't know why you make things harder on yourself than it actually is.


Edited by - fujers on 03/31/2018 18:43:41

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/31/2018:  19:04:34


I forgot to add the movement chart which tells how many 1/2 steps you are moving from the tonic.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/31/2018:  19:26:59


Jerry this is just moving a finger pattern that I'm sure you already use into a different place on the neck. You don't need all the theory.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/31/2018:  20:05:10


I am interested in further explanation of the transposition chart. It seems very complicated for a beginner, and I thought I had a good grasp of music theory, but it's purpose evades me.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/31/2018:  20:06:41


an example:

CM9 chord = C D E G B

C major scale = C D E F G A B

C major pentatonic scale = C D E G A this works but it comes out sounding country

altrenative is G pentatonic scale = G A B D E has no C (which is supplied by the rhythm section) but on the plus side you are adding upper tones of the chord for more colorful jazzy sound

buckhenry - Posted - 03/31/2018:  20:41:54


<blockquote id="quote">quote:

<hr height="1" id="quote" noshade="noshade" /><i>Originally posted by <a href="/myhangout/home.asp?id=37693" id="newtag-37693">mmuussiiccaall</a></i>



<p>an example:<br />

<br />

CM9 chord = C D E G B<br />

<br />

 </p>



<hr height="1" id="quote" noshade="noshade" /></blockquote>



<p>Ok, did'nt realize you are using anhemitonic scales...I thought they were all permutations of the major pentatonic scale as stated in the title... </p>


Edited by - buckhenry on 03/31/2018 20:43:07

fujers - Posted - 03/31/2018:  20:42:39


Now you're talking Richard. A lot of these folks around here are not inclined to know about hard things they want them simple..like I do simple. The more you place things hard for people to understand the less they will understand the things you teach..hope I got that right. When we talk about pentatonic scales witch to me is the easiest scale or scales to understand you may find that some people may just walk away if you explain to where the common folk don't understand what you talk . I, you and a lot of us are teachers of music...so you can't get to far above there heads..take it slow so you can get them to understand. Teaching as you know... you are a great teacher of music... and you know how to teach...back to basics. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 04/01/2018:  16:54:32


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

an example:



CM9 chord = C D E G B



 






You must have a chart about the anhemitonic scales...?



 

FiddleBas - Posted - 04/01/2018:  18:27:19


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Charts show how to move MAJOR SCALE FINGER PATTERNS around the fingerboard in order to easily produce tonal variations. The chart is completely in the key of C as an example. The +/- indications show where to move the MAJOR pentatonic pattern in order to accomplish the juxtapositions. The blue row will generate the straight tones, kind of like home base. Let's say for example you want to change the MAJOR to a MINOR. The chart says to move +3/-9 so if you are in the key of C you would slide up or down into the key of Eb and play the same finger patterns that you just did. The second chart shows a virtual fingerboard where these distances can be found from ground zero. BTW use the YouTube links to play your improvisations over the key of C.




Ok, I think I am slowly starting to understand how to read the transpositions chart. It seems you could use this chart in two "directions"




  1. To change from a C chord to another chord, just move the pentatonic pattern up or down as needed (e.g. from C to G chord, move down 5 semitones or up 7). This  version of the G chord also happens to sound like a CM7 chord (per the 'Chords suggested' column). 

  2. Conversely, to change the chord color of a C chord, shift the pentatonic pattern up or down. To use he same example, if I wanted to play a Major 7 version of the C chord, I could just shift the major pentatonic pattern -5/+7 semitones. 



I think I found this confusing, since the chart suggests it is about how to play chord changes, but that does not seem to be the point. Which leaves the question: how *do* you use this in practice? 



 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/01/2018:  19:59:43


There is a chord implied by every major pentatonic scale that is moved up or down the fingerboard as you stay on the original bass note. Here is the list, just pick a key and stay on that tonic and these chords will be generated as you move up in half-steps. All these chords could be A's, Bb's B's etc.

11. mb5M7b9
10. xm11
9. xM7#11(#15)
8. xmb6
7. xM7
6. xm7b5
5. x6/9sus
4. xM7#5(#15)
3. xm7
2. xM7#11
1. x7susb9
0. x6th

All the YouTube links are in the key of C and they are meant for the player to stay on the single pitch that is found on the left of the chart from that video chosen. So the backing tracks are to be used for soloing over using the five pitches in the pattern and eventually more notes of the scale. BTW there is nothing about chord changes.


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 04/01/2018 20:04:41

buckhenry - Posted - 04/01/2018:  22:45:49


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 stay on that tonic and these chords will be generated as you move up in half-steps. 

 






Ok, now this makes more sense.... so, basically you are teaching the Major Pentatonic to be begin on each note of the chromatic scale. But I fail to understand the reason for the dissonance created by the static tonic. I can see that this creates extended chords, but these extensions are not important to be always included in an improvisation.  I thought the point of teaching the pentatonic to beginners was to allow them to hear a pleasing harmony without any dissonance. When they can do that then the other notes are added to the scale, including chromatics, then they can waffle on for hours. But to play only five notes especially over a dissonant tonic, it begins to hurt the ears.  

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/01/2018:  23:16:26


Hmm, Henry I don't remember mentioning beginners and the chart shows 11 of the 12 possibilites which range from typical county and blues to deep jazz. Some as shown are too dissonant for any ear! Thanks to all for the questions as they clarify the thread so it becomes more useful to more players

buckhenry - Posted - 04/01/2018:  23:26:38


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Hmm, Henry I don't remember mentioning beginners 






No , you did'nt say that, I just thought pentatonics was useful to teach beginners improvisation. What is the application of your chart..?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/01/2018:  23:44:26


From my earlier post

All the YouTube links are in the key of C and they are meant for the player to stay on the single pitch that is found on the left of the chart from that video chosen. So the backing tracks are to be used for soloing over using the five pitches in the pattern and eventually more notes of the scale. It's just another tool in the toolbox.

bluesmode - Posted - 04/02/2018:  08:25:59


don't check in for a day or 2 and look what I miss. Woah Nellie...I got side tracked right off into the u-tube back tracks, stumbled on on a track for E phrygian Dominant scale, and I'm in love!! Where have you BEEN all my life. that's one heck of a beautiful, sultry, mid-eastern mystic scale.

I found thru the transpositions chart > C phrygian
youtube.com/watch?v=attihThGL6M

I guess phrygian Dominant would be one of the modes of the harmonic minor scale??

ok, gotta go now and.....

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/02/2018:  11:47:59


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

don't check in for a day or 2 and look what I miss. Woah Nellie...I got side tracked right off into the u-tube back tracks, stumbled on on a track for E phrygian Dominant scale, and I'm in love!! Where have you BEEN all my life. that's one heck of a beautiful, sultry, mid-eastern mystic scale.



I found thru the transpositions chart > C phrygian

youtube.com/watch?v=attihThGL6M



I guess phrygian Dominant would be one of the modes of the harmonic minor scale??



ok, gotta go now and.....






C Phrygian = 3rd mode of Ab



C Phrygian Dominant = 5th mode of F Harmonic minor

bluesmode - Posted - 04/02/2018:  12:22:04


Thanks Pete



mmuussiiccaall pretty sure I'm getting it. on the transpose sheet I looked for a #11 chord, guessing it would be Lydian. clicked on the U-tube for CM7#11 and sure enough...Lydian. so I would think the pent out as Dmaj/Bmin 1st position open strings (or closed) and just move that up the neck to other pent patterns that I've already memorized. and I guess there are only 7 possible pent patterns over 4 strings, yes?



how am I doing so far?



I'm thinking you must have searched out and linked up all those you tube back tracks. that would be a LOT of work, and very valuable imo. Thank you very much!!


Edited by - bluesmode on 04/02/2018 12:39:04

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/02/2018:  13:34:04


You're on it Dave, and so far as 7 patterns there could be many more than that if you start each note of the scale on a different finger.

tpquinn - Posted - 04/02/2018:  15:22:08


Wow, this really has me kerfuffled.

As has been noted, "very complicated for beginners", but ya don't learn much just going over the easy stuff. Good thing I'm on vacation this week; should give me time to cogitate and contemplate on this, although I probably still won't fully understand it. If I can figure it out, though, I think "thar's gold in them thar hills".

buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2018:  15:25:31


Instead of changing the pattern, stay on the same pattern and change the tonic note chromatically. That way you will instantly experience the effect of the dissonance which is achieved in reverse......

buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2018:  15:30:19


quote:

Originally posted by tpquinn

Wow, this really has me kerfuffled.



 






It's nothing really, just quirky music theory. Learn the Major Pentatonic scale in all 12 keys and you got it................

tpquinn - Posted - 04/02/2018:  15:38:07


That actually sounds do-able!

bluesmode - Posted - 04/02/2018:  21:10:31


quote:

Originally posted by buckhenry

Instead of changing the pattern, stay on the same pattern and change the tonic note chromatically. That way you will instantly experience the effect of the dissonance which is achieved in reverse......






Henry or Richard (noticed Richard liked Henry's post) can you walk me thru this using a C maj pent pattern 1st pos. closed.  so if I hit the B note on both the G & A strings instead of the C note, but keep all the other notes in the Cmaj pattern, then that changes the pattern to  Emin/Gmaj, yes/no? and if so, what you tube would I put up to hear the dissonance?



I hope I'm not completely out in left field with the above. Thanks. 

bluesmode - Posted - 04/02/2018:  21:29:45


quote:

Originally posted by buckhenry

quote:

Originally posted by tpquinn

Wow, this really has me kerfuffled.



 






It's nothing really, just quirky music theory. Learn the Major Pentatonic scale in all 12 keys and you got it................






if I may make a suggestion for tpquinn, it may be best to start out learning the major pents in the 'basic guitar keys' of E A D G C, and that would also give you the relative minors of each. if I'm following this correctly, you'd be missing out on some dissonance with only 5 keys?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/02/2018:  21:47:48


Dave go back to the Cm vid and play EbM penta then DbM penta along with it by just moving the pattern one whole step up and down the neck, decipher this out.

youtube.com/watch?v=attihThGL6M

buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2018:  22:38:05


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode


 






 what you tube would I put up to hear the dissonance?



 






The further you move away from the tonic the more dissonant it will sound...?

buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2018:  22:42:02


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

you'd be missing out on some dissonance with only 5 keys?





No, you just change the tonic chromatically. You can hear all dissonances possible from just playing in only one key. 

buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2018:  22:55:56


quote:

Originally posted by tpquinn

That actually sounds do-able!






This is Pat's response to my suggestion of learning the major pentatonic scale in all 12 keys...... 

bluesmode - Posted - 04/03/2018:  11:09:16


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Dave go back to the Cm vid and play EbM penta then DbM penta along with it by just moving the pattern one whole step up and down the neck, decipher this out.



youtube.com/watch?v=attihThGL6M






ok, I can hear it now along with the dissonance by doing the above over the back track. Thank You. 

bluesmode - Posted - 04/03/2018:  11:12:06


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I forgot to add the movement chart which tells how many 1/2 steps you are moving from the tonic.






i can't get the movement chart to open for me. is it working? I recently had some stuff done to my computer, so maybe it's on my end?

bluesmode - Posted - 04/03/2018:  13:44:52


quote:

Originally posted by buckhenry

quote:

Originally posted by tpquinn

That actually sounds do-able!






This is Pat's response to my suggestion of learning the major pentatonic scale in all 12 keys...... 






he said it's do-able, but is it practical? Pat started learning fiddle on June 8 2016. I believe he is learning tunes, Celtic and other tunes. maybe not too likely that many of those tunes are in Bb Eb Ab Db, and I don't think he's ventured much into improv. Perhaps Pat will give us his opinion of which he thinks would be more practical...all 12 keys, or the 5 that I mentioned.

buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2018:  15:02:15


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode


 






he said it's do-able, but is it practical? 






Practical or not, but still very good to practice and build your technique on the fiddle...? The point is that Pat was ''kerfuffled'' by Richard's chart on transposing the major pentatonic scale, and when I explained the simplicity of it he said that........ 

fujers - Posted - 04/03/2018:  15:15:39


I think it's good to know this.. if you like theory..but as I said I don't like theory..and that's my own fault I quess. If I knew theory I would be a very wize man..but anyway I don't. But..just but what if you were took this down a notch. As all of you now..knowing what key you were playing you only have to play 5 notes for that key and you can just play 5 notes for every key. I learned a very long time ago not to overlook these things because it opens up your playing...enough enough..I ain't saying anything else. Pentatonic style of playing is king..of course some other scales just to spice thing up

buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2018:  15:32:37


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 you can just play 5 notes for every key. 






But Jerry, this is precisely what this thread is about, Richard has just presented it to seem very complicated. All he is saying is play the major pentatonic in every key,  but all with the same tonic which I am having difficulty understanding why........   

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/03/2018:  16:14:51


Here's jazz guitar link where they talk about the subject of this thread but prefering to use the minor penta

jazzguitarlessons.net/jazz-gui...tatonics/

buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2018:  17:13:15


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 prefering to use the minor penta

 






And the dominant 7th pentatonic. 

fujers - Posted - 04/03/2018:  17:30:29


With the same tonic..wow that's something I don't get that either must be a reason why. Anyway..tell me what you learned

buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2018:  19:08:00


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

With the same tonic..wow that's something I don't get that either must be a reason why. Anyway..tell me what you learned






It's ''deep'' jazz Jerry....check out that last link Richard posted....

fujers - Posted - 04/03/2018:  19:30:10


I have and I like it. All I show is the simple pents and of course that's where you start. But I think this would be a great place to wrap your heard about playing pents..I told you pents rule...at least the little stuff I play they rule

buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2018:  19:56:39


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

I told you pents rule...at least the little stuff I play they rule






You're not telling anything new to me, I've use pents ever since I can remember. Whats new to me is a Am pent over a Dm7 chord followed by a Db7 pent over a G7 and then Bm pent over a a Cmaj7......Interesting stuff, cant wait to hear what it sounds like.....

fujers - Posted - 04/03/2018:  20:06:51


Man that sounds cool..anyway you can place your findings

buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2018:  20:12:00


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

Man that sounds cool..anyway you can place your findings






Hey, can you do that with BIAB............

fujers - Posted - 04/03/2018:  20:24:04


If you are asking can you play one chord and play a pent scale..I guess I would say yes ,,but you
'll have to furnace the scales..at least as far as I know.

bluesmode - Posted - 04/04/2018:  02:13:00


quote:

Originally posted by buckhenry

quote:

Originally posted by fujers

I told you pents rule...at least the little stuff I play they rule






You're not telling anything new to me, I've use pents ever since I can remember. Whats new to me is a Am pent over a Dm7 chord followed by a Db7 pent over a G7 and then Bm pent over a a Cmaj7......Interesting stuff, cant wait to hear what it sounds like.....






I have a Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin progression already programed into my sequencer, so all I would have to do is press a few buttons to change it to the above. if you could give me the notes to a Db7 pent (I don't know what a dom7 pent is) then I could play this. would be much appreciated. Sounds exciting.


Edited by - bluesmode on 04/04/2018 02:18:12

bluesmode - Posted - 04/04/2018:  02:47:31


come to think of it, are there pents I could do over that minor II-V7-I ? I'm guessing there must be. I could write a separate program for the major II-V7-I and then I'd have both.

for me, this would be where the rubber meets the road.

fujers - Posted - 04/04/2018:  11:28:21


Well there are many chords you could use over many pents. Remember I showed you how you can play just a single line over many pentatonic chords or chords that are within a pentatonic scale and they work..the same thing here.

Let us the G pent..there are a ton or many chords that you can play with this scale and all you hit is the GABDE notes now depending on how you use these notes is up to you but still you only play the 5 notes in that scale. Major Minor's it doesn't matter just as long as you stay within the boundary's of the scale you can play anything you want to..but I cheet

bluesmode - Posted - 04/04/2018:  12:09:00


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

quote:

Originally posted by buckhenry

quote:

Originally posted by fujers

I told you pents rule...at least the little stuff I play they rule






You're not telling anything new to me, I've use pents ever since I can remember. Whats new to me is a Am pent over a Dm7 chord followed by a Db7 pent over a G7 and then Bm pent over a a Cmaj7......Interesting stuff, cant wait to hear what it sounds like.....






I have a Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin progression already programed into my sequencer, so all I would have to do is press a few buttons to change it to the above. if you could give me the notes to a Db7 pent (I don't know what a dom7 pent is) then I could play this. would be much appreciated. Sounds exciting.






Jerry: Henry says Amin pent over Dmin7 > Db7 pent over G7 > Bmin pent over Cmaj7. all that's holding me up on this is the Db7 pent. 



and then there is my question of what pents for the minor II-V7-I, Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin. 



if you could give me the notes for Db7 pent, and the pents for the minor II-V7-I, I'll gladly take them with thanks. Otherwise I'll wait for Henry.



Henry: I hope this isn't too much to ask, but it would take me quite a while to sort thru the pents for the minor II-V7-I, and there's a good chance I wouldn't get it right. 



if any one could give me the notes for a Db7 pent, then I could get started. I'm thinking Henry might be sleeping down under. 

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