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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Central Dorian Mode??


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/48927

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/10/2018:  11:52:50


Dave Bluesmode asked me to explain myself so i'll try, (i dont think it's rocket science), and it is only my way of figuring the finger board but if you're interested here goes...(if not don't bother reading on)

here is a pic 1 octave of the Em dorian mode,(closed position)
notice how it is bang in the centre of the fiddle's register and the second mode of the key of D, an uber well used fiddle key?
notice how it reads the same going backwards and forwards in Tones and semitones 2122212 (palindromic)? this makes it "neutral" or "at rest" as it has no musical "Tension" to lead your ear to the tonic
notice how it forms a symmetrical "pattern" on an instrument tuned in 5ths like the fiddle or mando?

Q: Which single note would you "flatten" to make 1 octave of another of the most commonly used modes?


buckhenry - Posted - 03/10/2018:  13:51:49


C natural will modulate to Aeolian mode.

PrairieFiddler - Posted - 03/10/2018:  14:28:19


What Buck said. Flattening C # would make the E natural minor (Aeolian) scale.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/10/2018:  15:41:00


adding flat to same tonic... takes you from left to right.



Lydian Ionian Mixolydian Dorian Aeolian Phrygian Locorian



 



Not exactly sure how useful that is to know, or what you were getting at; but do note that Dorian is in the center.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/10/2018 15:50:51

bluesmode - Posted - 03/10/2018:  16:10:18


ok, but I'm still not sure what the point is. unless it has something to do with no musical tension....dorian does seem to flow very smoothly all over the place, at least for linear type playing. Can't say how "no musical tension" would apply to the sound of fiddling in dorian? it must be a similar 'effect' , yes? ...if that makes any sense.

PS thanks for putting up the diagram 'n all.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/10/2018:  17:43:54


now which note would you sharpen?...yep, the G# would give you E Mixolydian so you have 3 patterns



Mixolidian "DORIAN" Aolian...extrapolate further by sharpening notes to the left of the Dorian mode , and flattening notes to the right of the Dorian mode, and you end up with what Alaska says....



Lydian Ionian Mixolydian "DORIAN" Aeolian Phrygian Locrian ....going from Dorian to the left (sharpening notes) you get the lighter Major modes And from Dorian to the right (flattening notes) the darker minor modes



.....or if you prefer, going around the circle of 5ths (in respect of their parent keys) clockwise Sharpening notes, and anti clockwise flattening notes,



shift those patterns up a semitone and you have all 12 keys and their modes that fall in the center of the fiddles register. All within a 4th reach for the left hand, and by default all the triads,extended arpeggios and pentatonic scales derived from them, all extrapolated from the Dorian mode with minors to the right and majors to the left in 7 shiftable patterns



you can take this stuff further as well, to get a full chromatic set of modes for a "Tone center", by noting that the Dorian mode is the "only" mode that you can't sharpen or flatten its root to form a mode from the other major and minor scales (harmonic and melodic)



like i say not rocket science or ground breaking, but i find it useful,.....and Dave Bluesmode asked me what i was on about


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 03/10/2018 17:57:42

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/11/2018:  05:01:45


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

ok, but I'm still not sure what the point is. unless it has something to do with no musical tension....dorian does seem to flow very smoothly all over the place, at least for linear type playing. Can't say how "no musical tension" would apply to the sound of fiddling in dorian? it must be a similar 'effect' , yes? ...if that makes any sense.



PS thanks for putting up the diagram 'n all.






Dave i dont know what linear playing is? i don't think i ever use one mode for playing over a chord progression for very long (maybe 4 bars at most), i use the modes as fingering patterns so i can change the chords, arpeggios, pentatonics and modes with the progression, know where stuff is on the fingerboard, and which fingers to use.

bluesmode - Posted - 03/11/2018:  11:36:22


I describe linear as as playing a scale over 4 strings, as opposed to vertical which would be arpeggios over 4 strings. see what I mean?

allow me to indulge myself....that song How 'bout You, that I posted on Sound off...

Amin, Amin, Amin
A7#9, Dmin, G7
Cmaj7, Fmaj7, Bmin7b5
E7#9, Amin, E7#9

mostly playing min blues scale over Amin, but I could use A dorian (G scale). over A7#9 = diminshed/whole tone (altered scale) riff. over Dmin to Fmaj = D aeolian (C scale). over Bmin7b5 = locrian licks and one locrian arp at 2:27. over E7#9 is same altered scale riff as for A7#9

so...I'm doing kinda what you are saying I think.

BUT.... I frequently continue in the same mode for several measures if the progression allows it. can play A dorian over a whole 12 bar in A. I wouldn't, but technically speaking it would work, yes?

as previously stated at different times, I don't do well with jazz that has a lot of chord changes (harmonic movement?) but I think I'm ok with a coupla different modes.

the solo on that song was a fairly big deal for me, as I was able to use dorian, aeolian, locrian and diminished/whole-tone.

bluesmode - Posted - 03/11/2018:  11:43:36


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Lydian Ionian Mixolydian "DORIAN" Aeolian Phrygian Locrian ....going from Dorian to the left (sharpening notes) you get the lighter Major modes And from Dorian to the right (flattening notes) the darker minor modes






this is amazing and astounding to me and I'm only able to grasp it on an intuitive level at this point. as for the suff that follows....head is spinning.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/11/2018:  13:29:43


yes Dave, i dont grasp or play Blues very well either

that progression you posted is that 1 Bar of each chord ?

so discounting the #9 extensions and the Maj 7's it would look like this

Am///|Am///|Am///|A7///|Dm///|G7///|C///|F///|Bm7b5///|E7///|Am///|E7///|.....???

bluesmode - Posted - 03/11/2018:  13:59:14


yes, that's right.



come to think of it, here's another one of mine going back and fourth between 2 modes. not 100% sure, but I think it's B dorian & B phrygian.



also playing lead guitar on this one wink nothing like a bit of self promotion, eh?


Edited by - bluesmode on 03/11/2018 14:06:17


fujers - Posted - 03/11/2018:  14:56:05


Nice playing Dave

bluesmode - Posted - 03/11/2018:  20:10:50


Thanks Jerry



pete_fiddle : I think the 7#9 is important. it goes with the min7b5 and allows me to use Locrian > diminished/whole, as in this bad intonation example of me playing over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin.



youtube.com/watch?v=rdi6VnSX4FI


Edited by - bluesmode on 03/11/2018 20:23:09

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/12/2018:  01:23:57


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

Thanks Jerry



pete_fiddle : I think the 7#9 is important. it goes with the min7b5 and allows me to use Locrian > diminished/whole, as in this bad intonation example of me playing over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin.



youtube.com/watch?v=rdi6VnSX4FI






Dave to me, that progression is a 2-5-1 in C harmonic minor (apart from the #9) so i would use something like | F Dorian#4 | F Dorian#4 | C harmonic minor |



or just stay on the 2 chord ( D Locrian #6)  until the 1 Cmin chord



or use B diminished (the 7th chord) until the Cmin...



or stay on the the 5 chord (G mixolydian b9)until the Cmin..



or follow the progression with  |D loc#6| Gmixb9| Cmin



or a mix of any of them....



or extend the progression (if there was time) with something like | Fm/ Dm7b5/ |Bdim/ G7/| Cm,Cm(maj7),Cm7 Cm6 |  and follow those chords with the modes of C harmonic minor.....etc...etc...



hope this makes sense

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/12/2018:  07:24:42


Any how..... back to the central dorian mode thing, It really is more simple than it sounds when i try and write what i mean, so here's a pic to try and explain



notice how the mode "patterns" are opposite images of each other either side of the Dorian Mode?



i'll try to do a pic of the way i get the modes for the Chromatic scale in a bit


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 03/12/2018 07:31:26


bluesmode - Posted - 03/12/2018:  08:12:12


fascinating chart. I played thru Lydian and Locrian just to hear them.
but this only works based around the D & A strings, yes? and what do you do about extending the scales above and below the D & A strings, beside just figuring them out. are the extended patterns symmetrical also? I'm thinking they must be, to the extent of 'only 7 movable closed finger patterns'. Also, is this a tetra chord thing?

as you know, I associate major scale modes with their corresponding major scale finger patterns. I find this really easy.

which leads me into harmonic minor modes. (head is starting to spin) I'd hafta learn the finger patterns for several keys. either that or think it out in intervals, which I've never been that good at.

you could make me a video demonstrating harmonic minor modes over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin. haha, just kidding.

but seriously....do you have any vids or mp3's using some harmonic minor modal stuff (or anything else for that matter) I'd luv to hear you play.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/12/2018:  09:11:27


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

fascinating chart. I played thru Lydian and Locrian just to hear them.

but this only works based around the D & A strings, yes? and what do you do about extending the scales above and below the D & A strings, beside just figuring them out. are the extended patterns symmetrical also? I'm thinking they must be, to the extent of 'only 7 movable closed finger patterns'. Also, is this a tetra chord thing?



as you know, I associate major scale modes with their corresponding major scale finger patterns. I find this really easy.



which leads me into harmonic minor modes. (head is starting to spin) I'd hafta learn the finger patterns for several keys. either that or think it out in intervals, which I've never been that good at.



you could make me a video demonstrating harmonic minor modes over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin. haha, just kidding.



but seriously....do you have any vids or mp3's using some harmonic minor modal stuff (or anything else for that matter) I'd luv to hear you play.






Dave: the "Central Dorian Mode", located  in the center of the fiddle's register, and being a neutral, palindromic symmetrical mode, and its relationship with the other modes, and the cycle of 5ths is what i'm talking about in this thread....do you get my drift with that now ?

fujers - Posted - 03/12/2018:  14:38:18


Pete, Are you talking a bought playing in the second position I guess that's central to the fiddle. If that's what you mean..I can help you with that..can you be little clearer. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 03/12/2018:  19:33:48


Jerry: the diagrams are clearly in the first position. and no offence, but I don't think Pete would need any help playing in the second position.

one last question Pete: what is the practical application, other than the beauty of the mathematics?

fujers - Posted - 03/12/2018:  19:37:24


It seems to me he is asking about the cycle..ate least that's what I get

fujers - Posted - 03/12/2018:  19:48:01


Oh I see or I think I can see what he's talking about now..and please shoot me if I'm wrong. He's talking about the middle register witch is Dorian and what relationship it has to the cycle of 5's. The cycle of 5's doesn't care what mode you play in..it doesn't care what scale you play. It is based off of the root you play. So it doesn't care what ext you play. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 03/12/2018:  19:54:30


I don't think Pete is 'asking' about anything. He is explaining that the central dorian mode is a neutral, palindromic symmetrical mode, and it's relationship to other modes, and the cycle of 5ths. The cycle is only part of it.

I think the only part I'm not getting (as previously stated) is practical application.... unless I'm not 'seeing the forest for the trees'

fujers - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:15:11


Now you'll have to tell me this. What is a palindromic symmetrical mode never heard that before But of course I haven't heard of a lot things you talk about before. And where does the cycle of 5's come in I don't understand. What is the practical application I want to know that also.  If he wants to know about the cycle I just explained it to him. Tell me. Jerry


Edited by - fujers on 03/12/2018 20:17:13

bluesmode - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:17:26


...some further thoughts... I've heard dorian described as 'the jazz minor'. it does seem to be able to flow endlessly. I believe this is where 'palindromic' comes in and "no musical tension to lead your ear to the tonic" Yes?



Jerry: Pete explained palindromic in the original post. it means that the structure of the scale is such that it is the same going backwards and forwards in tones and semi tones. ie: 2122212. I believe this characteristic is unique among all other scales.



@Pete_Fiddle: looks like you may have more 'splaining to do? 


Edited by - bluesmode on 03/12/2018 20:30:56

fujers - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:30:19


Oh I see I never heard of the word before . But I can see where it may come into what you say. The Dorian mode is a very nice scale but if you don't use it right it will sound the same as if you just started it. Meaning you can play any scale you want but you have to resolve that note into something that fits with your next scale. Like I preach the pentatonic scale.. the same thing..you can play the pent all you want but you must somewhere resolve it somewhere. Jerry


Edited by - fujers on 03/12/2018 20:31:00

fujers - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:38:19


Dave my head hurts..got bright lights going on know. I think I will just go back to the bar

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:44:28


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Any how..... back to the central dorian mode thing, It really is more simple than it sounds when i try and write what i mean, so here's a pic to try and explain



notice how the mode "patterns" are opposite images of each other either side of the Dorian Mode?



i'll try to do a pic of the way i get the modes for the Chromatic scale in a bit






That chart is one way to look at things, if it helps you...



One thing to notice is patten/sequence of fingering changes of 2 strings, from left to right; which could be applied going in cycle of descending fifths (each move is one key flatter)... just one finger for each change in cycle*.



Staring with Lydian, the upper string has lowered 4th finger, then;

Lower string flattens 4th finger

then upper string lowers 3rd finger

Lower string flattens 3rd finger

then upper string lowers 2nd finger

Lower string flattens 2nd finger

then upper string lowers 1st finger



... then to continue the sequence (back to left, Lydian)- Lower string lowers 1st finger; and the upper string lower 4th finger. (*so 2 finger change)



At which point you're fingering relationship is the same as initial; just all half step down; and can repeat the process. (of course now you've shifted position).



Of course it works in reverse direction, ascending keys (sharper).



It might be a useful way for some, playing closed position, up the neck position shifts... to easier understand the cycle of fifths key change related to single sequential 4321 finger change; It could possibly be expanded to relate to 3 strings... then 4. Might be a good exercise for shifting.



I don't actually think of it this way (or how I would apply it); but whatever works, helps make sense to the person.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/12/2018 20:48:24

bluesmode - Posted - 03/13/2018:  04:56:49


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:



 



>It might be a useful way for some, playing closed position, up the neck position shifts... to easier understand the cycle of fifths key change related to single sequential 4321 finger change; It could possibly be expanded to relate to 3 strings... then 4. Might be a good exercise for shifting.<



 






ok, thanks Alaska, This explanation is moving me along. I was asking about patten symmetry over 4 strings a while back. 



I wonder if Im already doing something similar... if I shift up the D or E string in any modal major scale that I happen to be in, I don't usually come back down the same way, but rather stay wherever I am for a while and work the finger board over 4 strings in whatever major scale mode finger pattern that falls to hand 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/13/2018:  07:38:13


Dave:

the Jazz minor is the melodic minor played the same "Descending" as it is play "Ascending",

as opposed to the "classical melodic minor" which has the 6th and 7th degrees raised ascending and then flattened again descending



i'll plough (plow) on through with another chart from "music theory according to pete" for you all to ponder in i bit.... but i've got to get some logs in first... thanks anyways for having a look ...i think Alaska has it sorted but he's jumping way ahead of me.



Should i take this topic to My blog rather than the music theory section? Then folk wouldn't have to put up with my theomerising...unless they wanted to..


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 03/13/2018 07:39:55

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/13/2018:  08:24:43


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:



 



>It might be a useful way for some, playing closed position, up the neck position shifts... to easier understand the cycle of fifths key change related to single sequential 4321 finger change; It could possibly be expanded to relate to 3 strings... then 4. Might be a good exercise for shifting.<



 






ok, thanks Alaska, This explanation is moving me along. I was asking about patten symmetry over 4 strings a while back. 



I wonder if Im already doing something similar... if I shift up the D or E string in any modal major scale that I happen to be in, I don't usually come back down the same way, but rather stay wherever I am for a while and work the finger board over 4 strings in whatever major scale mode finger pattern that falls to hand 






You can expand that 2 string fingering and expand it to 3 then 4. just following the pattern.   If you look at pete's chart, the adjacent chart shows the next string fingering. For example if looking at any of 2 string combination, lower and upper string... To the left; the lower string shows the next fingering; the next to the right the upper string shows what the next string fingering would be.



 

bluesmode - Posted - 03/13/2018:  09:37:20


EUREKA!! I've got it, by George I think I've got it....took long enough, eh?

many, many thanks to Pete and Alaska :-)

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/13/2018:  11:34:57


Could write the finger pattern/string sequence as:



222

221

221

212

212

122

122

222 shifting the first finger back.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/13/2018:  12:09:43


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Could write the finger pattern/string sequence as:



222

221

221

212

212

122

122

222 shifting the first finger back.






Thats no good we need 27 8 X 10 colored glossy pictures with.. "the circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one" ...(lowden Wainwright)....... edit: damn! ( Arlo Guthrie)wink


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 03/13/2018 12:28:38

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/13/2018:  12:50:02


triple damn louden Wainright ......and damn again i'm old

boxbow - Posted - 03/13/2018:  15:05:24


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Dave:

the Jazz minor is the melodic minor played the same "Descending" as it is play "Ascending",

as opposed to the "classical melodic minor" which has the 6th and 7th degrees raised ascending and then flattened again descending



i'll plough (plow) on through with another chart from "music theory according to pete" for you all to ponder in i bit.... but i've got to get some logs in first... thanks anyways for having a look ...i think Alaska has it sorted but he's jumping way ahead of me.



Should i take this topic to My blog rather than the music theory section? Then folk wouldn't have to put up with my theomerising...unless they wanted to..






This string appears to have become quite popular.  Don't bury it on your blog page, although perhaps a summation might some day appear there.  I'd read that, too.  Wouldn't understand a word.  I love having a run at it, though.

Peghead - Posted - 03/13/2018:  15:59:01


E dorian is one of three minor modes imbedded in the D major scale, It's happens to be the 2nd mode. The others are F# minor the 3rd mode, and Bm the 6th mode. One shortcut to playing  in D Dorian is to start on D then think E major for fingering the other notes.

That's the modal approach. The other is the intervallic approach where the minor modes are deviations of their actual major scales, by flatting 3rds 7ths, etc. I've looked at both, it's a lot to remember for me. When you practice a major scale you are also practicing 3 minor modes. If you have diligently practiced the major scales and have them "in you hands" as piano players say, you already got huge a leg up on the minors. You can get quick handle on playing in the minor modes, if you identify which minor mode fits the tune, (They are easy to identify) and you know the major scale it derives from, you can trick yourself into playing them. E dorian comes out of the D major scale, E Aolian derives from G major, E Phrygian from C major. 


Edited by - Peghead on 03/13/2018 16:05:05

bluesmode - Posted - 03/13/2018:  18:05:21


quote:

Originally posted by Peghead

>If you have diligently practiced the major scales and have them "in you hands" as piano players say, you already got huge a leg up on the minors. You can get quick handle on playing in the minor modes, <








yup, that's me. and I would add that you have all the modes 'in your hands'



....modes of the major scale that is. as for modes of the harmonic minor scale....I'm just not going there (not at this point anyway) although I would like to do a Super Locrian double flat seven. who cares what it sounds like....just the name sounds cool enough.

michaeljennings - Posted - 03/13/2018:  18:10:42


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

triple damn louden Wainright ......and damn again i'm old






LoWden makes a damn fine guitar though!!

fujers - Posted - 03/13/2018:  19:39:02


Hey Michael I just heard the tunes you have on this site and like them...maybe you can post some. Thanks Jerry

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/14/2018:  02:23:33


quote:

Originally posted by Peghead

E dorian is one of three minor modes imbedded in the D major scale, It's happens to be the 2nd mode. The others are F# minor the 3rd mode, and Bm the 6th mode. One shortcut to playing  in D Dorian is to start on D then think E major for fingering the other notes.

That's the modal approach. The other is the intervallic approach where the minor modes are deviations of their actual major scales, by flatting 3rds 7ths, etc. I've looked at both, it's a lot to remember for me. When you practice a major scale you are also practicing 3 minor modes. If you have diligently practiced the major scales and have them "in you hands" as piano players say, you already got huge a leg up on the minors. You can get quick handle on playing in the minor modes, if you identify which minor mode fits the tune, (They are easy to identify) and you know the major scale it derives from, you can trick yourself into playing them. E dorian comes out of the D major scale, E Aolian derives from G major, E Phrygian from C major. 






Thats how i used to think of it as well, but to me it doesn't make sense on the fiddle,( fingering wise), whereas thinking in the patterns i put on that chart, and thinking of the Major Ionian mode as a permutation of a central Dorian mode does,(to me)



Obviously the Central E Dorian will give you the Major key of D (D Ionian)and its other modes surround it,in shiftable octaves on adjacent strings, within a fingering framework of a Diatonic 4th (similar to the "cage" system for mandolin...i think?), and in the middle of the fiddle's voice, or register



To get the next Major key (in the cycle of 5ths/4ths) i just move 1 finger back(5ths) or forward(4ths),...or i shift Diatonically to another pattern to stay in the same key (like changing Chord shapes on a guitar ...but there are only 7 of them :o) )..... and to get the flat or sharp keys i just shift the whole system up a semitone (after i have reached the Lydian or Locrian limit of the system)



another advantage is that i know where logical fingerings of all the arpeggios and pentatonic scales are as well ( through a couple or three octaves) ..by missing out the relevant (or irrelevant) notes..... and i use open strings where i need to, to facilitate the shifts between the 7 modal fingering patterns...(or just play with open strings for normal fiddle tunes that don't need a shift)



Recently i have found the relationships between the minor scales (harmonic and melodic) and related Major scales (even the harmonic Major!!) can be explained (to me anyway) by using this system... and even the Chromatic scale started to make sense to me when i stopped treating the "roots" of these mode patterns as inviolate...The "only" mode pattern that can't have its root altered (by a semitone flat or sharp), to make a related mode pattern from another minor or major scale, is the central Dorian mode (as doing so would create a string of semitones).



Pictures with circles and arrows to follow....:o)   ahhh i see you can upload pdf files..that'll make it easier..maybe

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/14/2018:  02:53:45


interestingly (to me) the other more exotic scales such as the Neapolitan and Double harmonic seem to be based around Palindromic modes as well maybe ?? ( well the double harmonic is palindromic in it's self any way)

michaeljennings - Posted - 03/14/2018:  09:18:34


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

Hey Michael I just heard the tunes you have on this site and like them...maybe you can post some. Thanks Jerry






If you're referring to me Jerry...... I'm afraid you have me confused with someone who actually knows how to play the fiddle........ I'm a rank beginner with playing fiddle [although I've played fretted instruments for decades. Also do repair/restoration/build fretted instruments].



Just took up the fiddle as a retirement project last year..... my only playing accomplishment to date has been to drive off all of the feral cats in my neighborhood. Luckily there are no Coyotes in residence on my island as I am sure I would excel at "calling" them in.

fujers - Posted - 03/14/2018:  12:48:20


Sorry must have you confused with someone else

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