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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Snowflake Reel


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/48514

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/08/2018:  11:08:08


There's an odd chord in Snowflake Reel. Playing the tune in D, I think it's a A#/Bb. Which would you write it as in a chord chart, (6b or 5#)? 

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 01/08/2018:  11:17:12


What is your source recording? Without hearing it I can't say for sure. If you are playing any natural V chords in the tune then it is a flat VI if no other V's are played then it is a #V. That would be my way of setting it down. R/

abinigia - Posted - 01/08/2018:  11:30:44


I learned this tune years ago from the Fiddle Fake Book, and recorded versions I have heard seem to agree. That chord is a Bb. But I guess your questions is should it be called A#. It is a raised 5 chord but my habit is to still call it by the flat.


Edited by - abinigia on 01/08/2018 11:33:48

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/08/2018:  11:56:40


Thanks. Here it is by the guy who composed it. youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJNm9WVCR0


Continuing this topic of chord charts, looking at Monk Scruggs' Forked Deer, which has roughly the following progression


(Simplified)


DGDA DGDAD :|


AAAA/G AADD :|


(Actual, I think)


DGDA DGD/G/A/D :|


 AAAA/G AA/D/G/A/D :| ,


Would the G I have underlined best be view as a 4 in the key of D or a flat 7 in the key of A? The first way is easier to read, but it has that flat 7, "Old Joe Clark" feel to me. Do you agree (just that one G)?


Monk Scruggs


youtube.com/watch?v=QrDv5Loxz_s


quote:

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

What is your source recording? Without hearing it I can't say for sure. If you are playing any natural V chords in the tune then it is a flat VI if no other V's are played then it is a #V. That would be my way of setting it down. R/






 

abinigia - Posted - 01/08/2018:  12:11:19


quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

Thanks. Here it is by the guy who composed it. youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJNm9WVCR0


Continuing this topic of chord charts, looking at Monk Scruggs' Forked Deer, which has roughly the following progression


(Simplified)


DGDA DGDAD :|


AAAA/G AADD :|


(Actual, I think)


DGDA DGD/G/A/D :|


 AAAA/G AA/D/G/A/D :| ,


Would the G I have underlined best be view as a 4 in the key of D or a flat 7 in the key of A? The first way is easier to read, but it has that flat 7, "Old Joe Clark" feel to me. Do you agree (just that one G)?


Monk Scruggs


youtube.com/watch?v=QrDv5Loxz_s


quote:

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

What is your source recording? Without hearing it I can't say for sure. If you are playing any natural V chords in the tune then it is a flat VI if no other V's are played then it is a #V. That would be my way of setting it down. R/






 






Very interesting. Have to admit I don't remember hearing that way before. I have always played it as going back to D there. That is one of those tunes I think of as flirting ambiguously with a key change in the B part. But I would write it out all in the key of D for simplicity, and therefore consider it a 4 chord.


Edited by - abinigia on 01/08/2018 12:12:08

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/08/2018:  12:48:18


Monk is the only guy I've heard do it.


quote:

Originally posted by abinigia

quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

Thanks. Here it is by the guy who composed it. youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJNm9WVCR0


Continuing this topic of chord charts, looking at Monk Scruggs' Forked Deer, which has roughly the following progression


(Simplified)


DGDA DGDAD :|


AAAA/G AADD :|


(Actual, I think)


DGDA DGD/G/A/D :|


 AAAA/G AA/D/G/A/D :| ,


Would the G I have underlined best be view as a 4 in the key of D or a flat 7 in the key of A? The first way is easier to read, but it has that flat 7, "Old Joe Clark" feel to me. Do you agree (just that one G)?


Monk Scruggs


youtube.com/watch?v=QrDv5Loxz_s


quote:

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

What is your source recording? Without hearing it I can't say for sure. If you are playing any natural V chords in the tune then it is a flat VI if no other V's are played then it is a #V. That would be my way of setting it down. R/






 






Very interesting. Have to admit I don't remember hearing that way before. I have always played it as going back to D there. That is one of those tunes I think of as flirting ambiguously with a key change in the B part. But I would write it out all in the key of D for simplicity, and therefore consider it a 4 chord.






 

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 01/08/2018:  13:59:08


Bobby Hicks recorded this tune on his Texas Crapshooter recording. It has a bit of a different feel to it than your source. R/

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/08/2018:  18:16:22


borrowed flat VIth

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/08/2018:  19:06:53


quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy


Continuing this topic of chord charts, looking at Monk Scruggs' Forked Deer, which has roughly the following progression


Would the G I have underlined best be view as a 4 in the key of D or a flat 7 in the key of A? The first way is easier to read, but it has that flat 7, "Old Joe Clark" feel to me. Do you agree (just that one G)



Like Brian though, a D chord is more typical.



That said, the tune is just in the key (tonal center) of D; the second part just starts with the V chord; that doesn't change the key, and resolves back to D - so the G would just be the IV.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/10/2018:  00:15:39


What are you talking about?


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

borrowed flat VIth






 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/10/2018:  01:23:13


The flat VI chord is the same as your 6b - The sixth note of the scale, in this case key of D, would be a B note; the flat sixth is Bb. The chord, in whatever key you are in, is 2 whole steps down and major. I think he said borrowed because it's not in the key, (as vi would be) but borrowed from what, don't know.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 01/10/2018 01:28:38

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/10/2018:  10:25:58


Most of the time I have seen "borrowed", refers to the parallel minor key, but that would make it a Bflat minor, which I don't think it is. Frankly, I think using that label doesn't help much in this style of music. If it's root note is the 6th "note letter" when counting up the D scale, just call it a 6, and flatted, 6b. I guess I take for granted that people use the Nashville Number System. Really, my primary source for the tune is Howdy Forrester, but that YouTube video is gone. Tommy Jackson plays it almost exactly the same, even in terms of bowing, if I remember correctly, so I'm guessing it is one of the several tunes Howdy shared with him.  youtube.com/watch?v=hFAdO1J4hDE


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

The flat VI chord is the same as your 6b - The sixth note of the scale, in this case key of D, would be a B note; the flat sixth is Bb. The chord, in whatever key you are in, is 2 whole steps down and major. I think he said borrowed because it's not in the key, (as vi would be) but borrowed from what, don't know.






 


Edited by - soppinthegravy on 01/10/2018 10:28:25

pete_fiddle - Posted - 01/10/2018:  11:46:24


my guess is, it's the Bb chord borrowed from D minor, in which case it would be Bb major(7th)??
...and the relevant mode would be Bb lydian

DougD - Posted - 01/10/2018:  12:21:12


I think he means it's "borrowed" from another key, because its not harmonically related to the key of D, at least not diatonically. In trying to relate it harmonically, the best I could come up with is that its the Neapolitan chord of the V (A).
Really this is just a "trick" tune that has an oddball chord in it.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/10/2018:  13:11:07


Y'know, I'm tired of hearing the terms "trick tune" or "trick fiddling". Fiddling is fiddling. Why do you guys have to judge the legitimacy of everything?


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

I think he means it's "borrowed" from another key, because its not harmonically related to the key of D, at least not diatonically. In trying to relate it harmonically, the best I could come up with is that its the Neapolitan chord of the V (A).

Really this is just a "trick" tune that has an oddball chord in it.






 

ChickenMan - Posted - 01/10/2018:  16:09:22


I'm not sure what "trick" means, but to me that bit sound pretty out of place, modern and jazzy (or classical even) in an otherwise traditional sounding dance tune. Still, if that's the way it was written then that's how it goes, eh.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 01/10/2018:  18:47:30


It used to be pretty popular. I never cared for the Bb chord for the same reason.  The chromatic walk down is another thing that, to me, makes it not very old-timey, but,  perhaps it was intended to be be modern and jazzy. Do you have any suggestions on what to replace it with?  My idea was to change the melody note and chord there  from a flat 6 (B flat major) to a flat 7 (C major). I'very also rewritten Devil's Dream to be less "jiggy". That'said one thing that interests me, figuring out precisely what I don't like about a tune, then removing what I dislike  and replacing those parts until I like the tune, but a friend said not to alter old tunes like that. He said, "You can't go digging in the graveyard. "


quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

I'm not sure what "trick" means, but to me that bit sound pretty out of place, modern and jazzy (or classical even) in an otherwise traditional sounding dance tune. Still, if that's the way it was written then that's how it goes, eh.






 


Edited by - soppinthegravy on 01/10/2018 18:56:35

abinigia - Posted - 01/10/2018:  18:53:01


Well I happen to think it’s a fine tune. Surprised to hear some of you think it’s too modern.

ChickenMan - Posted - 01/10/2018:  19:11:32


I'm not opposed to rearranging, just give credit where due. I'm not sure what I'd pay instead, but I'll give it some thought..

abinigia - Posted - 01/10/2018:  21:37:45


That chord IS Snowflake Reel. Why not save time and just learn another tune you llie better?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/10/2018:  23:15:15


quote:

Originally posted by soppinthegravy



Frankly, I think using that label doesn't help much in this style of music. If it's root note is the 6th "note letter" when counting up the D scale, just call it a 6, and flatted, 6b. I guess I take for granted that people use the Nashville Number System.  



The older, using Roman numerals is similar, V rather than 5; or VIb vs 6b.  Nashville Number System is perhaps not that universal (esp in some complexities). Some prefer the older; uppercase/lowercase help define; and perhaps easier to recognize, when adding; like V7 or II7.



----------



As far as "trick" fiddling... all of fiddling is a trickcheeky



But I get how that some tune compositions (or arrangements)... the tunes seems more about oddities/catch/flash/showy they put in; rather than really solid music sense or substance. Besides harmonic/chord... sometimes it's the crooked, extra beat, jumped beat, stops/pauses, sometimes things like fast chromatic runs.



It's just subjective. The same thing that folks love about these tunes; the odd, take by surprise, (or flashy); are the reasons others don't care much for em.



As I see Brian said... IMO, Snowflake defined by, relies on (why folks like it); the fast chromatic run; going to Bb; and played fast. That's what folks like or not about it, I don't think you would want to change it.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 01/10/2018 23:17:39

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