Brian Wood - Posted - 11/06/2017:  08:13:21

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

To my way of thinking then, the progression starts on C, visits other keys and eventually ends up back in C,

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Then you're misunderstanding the concept of key. You're talking about chord progressions. The useful thing about a song having a key is that the different chords have relationships to each other that can be described within that key, and its chords have exactly the same relative relationship in any other key it's played in.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/06/2017:  09:10:45

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Originally posted by abinigia

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

To my way of thinking then, the progression starts on C, visits other keys and eventually ends up back in C,

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Then you're misunderstanding the concept of key. You're talking about chord progressions. The useful thing about a song having a key is that the different chords have relationships to each other that can be described within that key, and its chords have exactly the same relative relationship in any other key it's played in.

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i don't think i am misunderstanding "The concept of key" it's just that to me any departure from the chords of the scale that the tune is written in,

for example, C major  =  Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gdom7, Amin, Bm7b5,.....

or the modes they come from .... C ionian D Dorian, E Phrygian, F lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aolian,and B locrian,

is for me a departure from the  "Home Key".  And for example, changing the Em(7) chord in the key of C to an E7 chord, you would have to sharp the G natural resulting in E phrygian (from the C scale), with a sharpened 3rd, which is the same as E mixolydian b9.... the 5th Mode and by default the Extended (7 note) dominant 5th chord of A harmonic minor,

ergo i am in the Key of A harmonic minor while the E7 chord is being played, and can use chords/modes from the A harmonic minor scale to extend the progression, or substitute chords/modes from the A harmonic minor scale that have the same function

How would you describe the relationship of E7 to C major?

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 11/06/2017 09:22:13

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/06/2017:  09:49:11

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How would you describe the relationship of E7 to C major?

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Strained at best 

DougD - Posted - 11/06/2017:  10:17:34

As I said earlier, in the key of C, an E7 chord is a secondary or extended dominant chord. According to this website, it would be referred to as V7/vi, since it resolves to A minor.  cyberflotsam.com/Music_Seconda...nants.htm

This is getting pretty far afield. The thing I really could relate to in this thread is the difficulty of hearing chords if they're called out during a tune, especially by a fiddler who's busy with other things (D,G,E,C, etc.). The god of music seemingly has a cruel sense of humor.

I do know a solution to this whole problem though. I play in only one scheduled jam a year, which is actually a two hour session during large festival. We've done it for many years, and we always just play in D. This year our banjo player/de facto leader said to me "I never knew there were so many D tunes," even though we probably both know dozens.

We don't play "All of Me" though.

Edited by - DougD on 11/06/2017 10:31:38

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/06/2017:  11:08:20

it's not "Far Afield" for me, i get told confidently that  "This tune is in C"  or whatever all the time, and then folk expect me to work out where the middle eight goes, and which key's the tune visits on the fly, without ever having heard the tune (as we all have i'm sure), the way i think about it helps me a bit but it's a strain, sometimes i wish i was just punching out the chords that i had memorized (or am watching the guitarist play), rather than being expected to try to make some sort of musically creative sense out of them in any Breaks or improvisations... when they inevitably come around....

....just a call for folk to explain, or at least give the whole progression, rather than just saying "This ones in C"...1234....

ps: secondary or extended = out of the diatonic "Key", pretty much what i am saying

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 11/06/2017 11:16:25

Brian Wood - Posted - 11/06/2017:  11:52:42

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

it's not "Far Afield" for me, i get told confidently that  "This tune is in C"  or whatever all the time, and then folk expect me to work out where the middle eight goes, and which key's the tune visits on the fly, without ever having heard the tune (as we all have i'm sure), the way i think about it helps me a bit but it's a strain, sometimes i wish i was just punching out the chords that i had memorized (or am watching the guitarist play), rather than being expected to try to make some sort of musically creative sense out of them in any Breaks or improvisations... when they inevitably come around....

....just a call for folk to explain, or at least give the whole progression, rather than just saying "This ones in C"...1234....

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The thing is, is if you have a practical knowledge of chords, you can more or less identify chord changes intuitively when you hear a new tune for the first time at a jam. Most people learn to understand at least the I, IV, V, changes to begin with. Ergo, someone calls out a key, starts a tune, and your mind follows the changes relative to  that key, rather than memorizing strings of chords without a home key in mind to give them meaning. And yet you talk a lot about those relationships, so you seem to understand them. It sounds like maybe you can translate chords into modes and scales on the fly faster than me. If so, why not make it easier andt play those relationships intuitively rather than intellectualize each change?

As far as communicating in a jam, I also sometimes use other terms like "subtonic", because in most cases, at least in my ears, the b7 chord is utilized as a whole step below the tonic (key tone), or a 2nd below, if you will. Likewise, a relative minor chord is often employed as a 3rd below the tonic, rather than a 6th above. So I'll just say "relative minor" rather than "6". Also, it's easier a lot of times to call out a chords major or minor designation. If I'm playing in the key of G and the next chord is A major I might say "2 major", or if it's a minor say "2 minor" even though saying "2" would be correct, strictly speaking, for the minor chord. The point to me is to communicate simply and quickly with as little talk as possible.

By the way, figuring out where the middle 8 goes is pretty much self explanatory. And that's about song structure, not key.

buckhenry - Posted - 11/06/2017:  14:09:51

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

No but i like to know what the whole progression is rather than them just tell me "its in C"??

 

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Often I have been in the situation that the guitarist doesn't know what key they are in, usually caused by the confusion where the capo is.

Then I put trust on my ears, and I certainly would not want them to rattle off the chord progression, because I enjoy working it out for myself. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/06/2017:  16:45:10

"By the way, figuring out where the middle 8 goes is pretty much self explanatory. And that's about song structure, not key."

i meant where the middle 8 goes "harmonically" Brian

" why not make it easier andt play those relationships intuitively rather than intellectualize each change? "

because i like to know what i'm doing and why, i used to play intuitively years ago before i found out there is logic to music.

" And yet you talk a lot about those relationships, so you seem to understand them "

Well thank you! Thats what a Music Theory Forum is all about.

So Brian would you call an E7 chord while playing in the key of C a "3 dominant 7th"?

if so i could learn to relate to that (i think that may be the "Nashville System" for naming chords?), and it would fit with my way of thinking nicely as well

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/06/2017:  16:55:52

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Originally posted by buckhenry

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

No but i like to know what the whole progression is rather than them just tell me "its in C"??

 

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Often I have been in the situation that the guitarist doesn't know what key they are in, usually caused by the confusion where the capo is.

Then I put trust on my ears, and I certainly would not want them to rattle off the chord progression, because I enjoy working it out for myself. 

 

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yeah... i suppose i wouldn't want someone rattling either...especially if they couldn't tell which chords they where playing because they had put a capo on

Brian Wood - Posted - 11/06/2017:  20:37:39

So Brian would you call an E7 chord while playing in the key of C a "3 dominant 7th"?

Sure. I generally don’t call extended chords, 7ths, 9ths, etc. because it’s to many words, too much information, and usually unnecessary because I don’t think it usually sounds good for every instrument to play the extensions. You only need to convey basic information, major or minor usually.

buckhenry - Posted - 11/07/2017:  10:56:08

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

(i think that may be the "Nashville System" for naming chords?), 

 

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I believe this system uses hand signals also, thus 3 fingers for the third chord of the key etc, and then it is left up to the musician to determine either major or minor.....But, whats wrong with ''Edward'' for ''E''.......?

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 11/07/2017:  11:58:52

I'm with the contingent that says "Put your trust in your ears." You can go nuts if, on the fly, you over-intellectualize what is essentially folk music handed down through generations of folks who never knew the first thing about music theory. Ear-to-Finger training is the magical elixir. If the key changes, drop out of the goings-on for a few seconds and find the new tonic on your instrument. Then go from there. Unless you're on-stage with the Philharmonic, of course... But then you'll be reading off the page, anyway.

farmerjones - Posted - 11/07/2017:  12:06:07

I've been to Maine, Spain, Spokane, 3 rodeos, 2 goat ropeins', and a chili cook-off. I hain't never heard the term "middle 8." Is that like a demo-derby but you go on a figure 8 track?

I think it's time for this:

youtube.com/watch?v=e-NlSTerYRg

Brian Wood - Posted - 11/07/2017:  12:34:09

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I've been to Maine, Spain, Spokane, 3 rodeos, 2 goat ropeins', and a chili cook-off. I hain't never heard the term "middle 8." Is that like a demo-derby but you go on a figure 8 track?



I think it's time for this:



youtube.com/watch?v=e-NlSTerYRg

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Actually there aren't to many "middle 8" parts to worry about in folk music. I'm not sure why that came up. It's more a pop music term. It's an 8 bar part, sometimes called a "bridge".

Edited by - Brian Wood on 11/07/2017 12:34:50

Brian Wood - Posted - 11/07/2017:  13:32:31

One last thing for Pete. Like you, I sometimes want to know all the chords of a complicated tune, and my advice is to carry a small notebook and write the chords down from whomever will tell them to you, if you don't do that already.



Very often newbies are asking me the chords as I try to play a tune, and I am glad to help. But nobody writes it down! So they keep stumbling and interrupting, trying to get it. Then they come again the next week and have to be told all over. Even when I offer pencil and paper sometimes, they don't want to bother. That's what drives me nuts.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 11/07/2017 13:33:27

farmerjones - Posted - 11/07/2017:  13:41:57

I savvy what a bridge/turn-around is. And many times it doesn't follow the chord progression of the verse or chorus. The "around the horn" motif in it's many forms is often employed thus.

It's interesting to note while folk-centric music runs the gamut of the I, IV, V progressions, the tin-pan-alley piano-centric music revolves around ii, V, I, and some I, vi, IV, V. But there it is again, the four chord version of the I, IV, V. If you play fiddle, you already have an above average sense of tone. Start off on the tonic, and guess. One has a better than 50/50 chance you'll get the first change correct. If the first change goes to the IV, the second will be a V, and vise-versa. There's many, many two chord tunes too. Making it easier still.

farmerjones - Posted - 11/07/2017:  13:59:17

I'm the last guy to get dogmatic about a chord progression. I get a lot of grins from folks that will put five chords where I put three. There are transitioning/passing chords that get dropped the faster the tunes is played. That's just reality. There's also a difference between jam survival and a recording session. I relish the fact I can only make a two note chord with a fiddle. The more extravagant the guitar chord is, it more likely my two little notes will be amongst the correct tones, and if it's not, it's only a semi-tone slide away.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 11/07/2017:  13:59:20

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I savvy what a bridge/turn-around is. And many times it doesn't follow the chord progression of the verse or chorus. The "around the horn" motif in it's many forms is often employed thus.



It's interesting to note while folk-centric music runs the gamut of the I, IV, V progressions, the tin-pan-alley piano-centric music revolves around ii, V, I, and some I, vi, IV, V. But there it is again, the four chord version of the I, IV, V. If you play fiddle, you already have an above average sense of tone. Start off on the tonic, and guess. One has a better than 50/50 chance you'll get the first change correct. If the first change goes to the IV, the second will be a V, and vise-versa. There's many, many two chord tunes too. Making it easier still.

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You got 'em!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/07/2017:  22:29:47

well thanks for all the advice,

i shall start using my ears,

not use so many chords,

carry a pencil and paper,

and call the middle 8 a bridge

Brendan Doyle - Posted - 02/24/2018:  17:05:22

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

At a jam recently a guy said he had a tune in key of C and then went on to play an A-minor tune. I told him, "That's not a C tune, that's an A-minor tune. They have the same key signatures, but it's A-minor, not C." He argued with me. I tried to explain that there's no way you can play that tune with C-major chords. It will sound bad. You have to play it with A-minor chords. I also told him there's no way it's a C tune because it resolves on the A, the root note. He thought I was crazy, but he was wrong and I was right, so there.

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It usually seems obvious to me that the tonal "center" determines the key of a tune, rather than the key signature as it would be written, for this very reason. But that said, there are some old time tunes where the tonal center shifts from, say, A minor (or maybe A Dorian) to C, like Wilson Douglas's "Little Rose". But I tend to think of that tune as being in C in the high part and A minor/modal in the low part. As a banjo player, I then have to choose what tuning works best for both parts (in this case double-C for me). So it can be a bit ambiguous.

Another example is Tommy Jarrell's "Sail Away Ladies", which has elements of both G and E minor, yet seems to resolve on a D, and it's not obvious (to me) which is the true tonal center. When, at age 25, I found myself sitting in Tommy's living room as he played that tune, I thought it was the perfect opportunity - sitting at the feet of the master! - to clear up that mystery. So I asked him what key the tune was in, and he looked at me and said, "I don't know. I don't know one gear from another!" That was a revelation to me about the way in which many traditional players learned and thought about their music.

fujers - Posted - 02/24/2018:  17:29:52

Me I just use my ears..pretty powerful things you have on each side of you head. In some cases I may have to use the circle of fifths for songs that I have never heard before. Now if I already know how a particular song goes and it moved from it's original key to another key I will already know how to play it in any key. But I don't play in every key..I keep to the ones that are fiddle friendly. Jerry

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/24/2018:  19:26:14

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Originally posted by Brendan Doyle

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

At a jam recently a guy said he had a tune in key of C and then went on to play an A-minor tune. I told him, "That's not a C tune, that's an A-minor tune. They have the same key signatures, but it's A-minor, not C." He argued with me. I tried to explain that there's no way you can play that tune with C-major chords. It will sound bad. You have to play it with A-minor chords. I also told him there's no way it's a C tune because it resolves on the A, the root note. He thought I was crazy, but he was wrong and I was right, so there.

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It usually seems obvious to me that the tonal "center" determines the key of a tune, rather than the key signature as it would be written, for this very reason. But that said, there are some old time tunes where the tonal center shifts from, say, A minor (or maybe A Dorian) to C, like Wilson Douglas's "Little Rose". But I tend to think of that tune as being in C in the high part and A minor/modal in the low part. As a banjo player, I then have to choose what tuning works best for both parts (in this case double-C for me). So it can be a bit ambiguous...

The fact is you won’t go horribly wrong substituting relative major and minor chords for each other. You will make extended chords that may actually add to some passages. It is one of the tricks in my bag. It is too jazzy for some simple tunes, it’s true. But it won’t sound “bad” in the sense that notes clash disagreeably. Playing Em with a G gives a G6, while playing a G with an Em gives Em7.

sbhikes2 - Posted - 02/24/2018:  20:16:09

Oh yeah, there are definitely tunes where you would disagree as the the chords to go with it. For example, Sarah Armstrong's Paddy on the Turnpike. I tried to bring that to the jam. A bunch of us had hear Spencer and Rains play it and we knew how it should sound. The guitar players hadn't heard it. Immediately they start putting E minor chords to it. While it does indeed sound like E minor if you just hear the melody alone, it's totally wrong. The tune is in G major. You can play the whole thing with G, C and D chords and it sounds correct. If you stick in E minor and A minor chords it's wrong. It's not discordant, but it's still wrong. The tune is some kind of G modal and you put major chords to it and that's how it has to be to be right.

fujers - Posted - 02/24/2018:  21:12:49

You learn the basics of every key you are going to play in. Like G C D or 1-4-5 then you put in the obvious minors and the obvious one is Em. It's not hard... there is no rocket science going on. If you just take a little time you will know what chords go where. It's simple. Jerry