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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Little Tid Bits


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/45842

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fujers - Posted - 02/07/2017:  20:36:05


The relative Minor to Gmaj is Em



All these things can be found in your cycle of fifths. Lean it. 

buckhenry - Posted - 02/07/2017:  23:55:51


yeah, that's right jerry...you count around clockwise 4 places and you get to E.....G D A E...oh, look at that, they are the names of the fiddle strings.

John Henry - Posted - 02/08/2017:  07:00:55


Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle


fujers - Posted - 02/08/2017:  12:45:26


Double stops are called chords. Did you know you can play G double stops all over the neck well you can with all keys. Unless you hit an octive you are playing inversions. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 02/08/2017:  12:46:37


Henry did you change your name again

fujers - Posted - 02/08/2017:  12:47:56


Learn the cycle of fifths..

buckhenry - Posted - 02/08/2017:  20:55:35


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Learn the cycle of fifths..









But Jerry, that is easy, you can do it on one hand.........I wanna know how YOU use it...!?

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2017:  05:23:50


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Double stops are called chords. Did you know you can play G double stops all over the neck well you can with all keys. Unless you hit an octive you are playing inversions. Jerry







technically, you need 3 notes to make a chord. double stops are intervals.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2017:  05:50:52


quote:

Originally posted by halbut

 
quote:


Originally posted by fujers

 


Learn the cycle of fifths.






But Jerry, that is easy, you can do it on one hand.........I wanna know how YOU use it...!?







good question halbut. I took some lessons from a jazz violinist a long time ago. The first thing he had me do was do the cycle with arpeggios's for a II - V7 - I progression, and resolving the one with a Maj7. eg: Dmin>G7> Cmaj7. Memorizing the Maj7 arps around the cycle came in handy later on, as I now use them them in modes for blues. eg: Bbmaj7 arp for G blues, works great over the IV chord. works best if you start the arp on the Maj7 note. 


Edited by - bluesmode on 02/09/2017 05:55:34

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/09/2017:  12:10:24


Yeah, bluesmode.  Your post encapsulates jazz in a nutshell. II-V-I Maj 7.  And don't forget to forget to include the occasional minor third-to major third slide in your solos.

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  15:02:54


Henry, I don't use the cycle all the time. There are some songs where you just don't need it. It comes in handy when you play progressive or if you -play something you never heard before thats when it comes in handy..get the chords and away you go. Funny I never had no reason to learn the minor cycle...because no one plays in minors around here..evcept songs you all ready know. Now there is this one band or group that -plays a lot of minor stuff. I can play very well in minors but not enough. When I play guitar thats about all I play is in minors. So I guess I know about minors already so I really don't need to know about the cycle yet. Watch that blow up in my face. So I guess I use it much like you would. Jerry



 



Henry, I've working on that double stop thingy again. I/m trying to get it done but I always have to change things....like always I have to change things. I think of something and that morps into something else. So at the rate of my progress now....it should be finished by the year 2020


Edited by - fujers on 02/09/2017 15:13:29

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2017:  15:57:11


quote:

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

 

  And don't forget to forget to include the occasional minor third-to major third slide in your solos.







don't worry, I'm always sliding around all over the place winklaugh from m3 to M3, (major blues scale) and from b5 to M5 (minor blues scale).



btw, have you kept up on those bebop scales?? Unfortunately I have not. but I certainly don't regret the research that I put into them. at least I know how they work now...Major, Dom7 & minor, and I've got all 3 note for note, transposed into 3 keys. I'm really fascinated by the 8 note scale and how the notes land on beat with the chord tones.   

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  15:58:46


The ii-V-I progression is very important to jazz. I remember reading about the practice habits of a famous jazz player, he would play the ii-V-I progression and transpose it so the ( I )chords would  move in major thirds, and this is where the circle of fifths comes into play. Because if you look at the circle of fifths you will see this progression, and the modulations I just mentioned, that it makes a definite pattern around the circle. In  jazz the ii-V-I progression is also included at other places within the key, thus I-VII-III and VII-III-VI and III-VI-II and VI-II-V. And , of course the quality of the chords can be altered. So, unless you have photographic memory, you may need the circle of fifths to follow these transpositions and modulations.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2017:  16:20:35


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 
quote:


Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

 


  And don't forget to forget to include the occasional minor third-to major third slide in your solos.








don't worry, I'm always sliding around all over the place winklaugh from m3 to M3, (major blues scale) and from b5 to M5 (minor blues scale).




btw, have you kept up on those bebop scales?? Unfortunately I have not. but I certainly don't regret the research that I put into them. at least I know how they work now...Major, Dom7 & minor, and I've got all 3 note for note, transposed into 3 keys. I'm really fascinated by the 8 note scale and how the notes land on beat with the chord tones.   







sorry Lonesome Fiddler. Looking back it was Swing who thought he could use the bebop stuff.



@Swing: have you kept up on those bebop scales.....laugh

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2017:  16:34:15


quote:

Originally posted by halbut

 

The ii-V-I progression is very important to jazz. I remember reading about the practice habits of a famous jazz player, he would play the ii-V-I progression and transpose it so the ( I )chords would  move in major thirds, and this is where the circle of fifths comes into play. Because if you look at the circle of fifths you will see this progression, and the modulations I just mentioned, that it makes a definite pattern around the circle. In  jazz the ii-V-I progression is also included at other places within the key, thus I-VII-III and VII-III-VI and III-VI-II and VI-II-V. And , of course the quality of the chords can be altered. So, unless you have photographic memory, you may need the circle of fifths to follow these transpositions and modulations.







fascinating stuff! I think I have an intuitive understanding of what you're saying, but I'm a bit confused about "chords move in major thirds" Could you please give me a specific example of how it would move thru the 1-7-3, 7-3-6, 3-6-2, 6-2-5, starting with Dmin>G7>C, or maybe just the first couple of 'movements'?

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  16:43:59


Henry, Do you play the blues. I know you have heard this before. But there are many ways to play the blues. This is just one way I play them. This is preety much straight forward..1-4-5. But you can add just about any chord you want to. Jerry


Edited by - fujers on 02/09/2017 16:48:42

DougD - Posted - 02/09/2017:  16:49:35


Henry, thanks for putting that ii chord into lower case. In my (somewhat limited) experience the iim7 is often used as a substitution for the IV chord, since its the relative minor, and in the case of the seventh it uses the same notes as the IV6 (D-F-A-C in the key of C).



For me its easier just to think of the relative minor as a minor third below the major key. That seems simpler than consulting the circle of fifths, which although useful, is mostly helpful to me to navigate the bass side of a piano accordion.


Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:18:52


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

 

Henry, thanks for putting that ii chord into lower case. In my (somewhat limited) experience the iim7 is often used as a substitution for the IV chord, since its the relative minor, and in the case of the seventh it uses the same notes as the IV6 (D-F-A-C in the key of C).


 

For me its easier just to think of the relative minor as a minor third below the major key. That seems simpler than consulting the circle of fifths, which although useful, is mostly helpful to me to navigate the bass side of a piano accordion.


 




Using the major second instead of the minor second in the progression lends a blunter, more pop/country  sensibility.  Yeah, it's less big city cool but sometimes you want to be ardent, not cool.   Or do I mean happy?  Less glower? More silly grin?


Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 02/09/2017 17:34:24

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:23:04


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

Could you please give me a specific example of how it would move thru the 1-7-3, 7-3-6, 3-6-2, 6-2-5









Well, each one of those progressions is a ...II-V-I.....which are all progressions of chords moving in fourths..





The example of the 'famous jazz players practice habit' is the ii-V-I progression played through modulations.......



Dm7-G7-CM7



​F#m7-B7-EM7



Bbm7-Eb7-AbM7



​Notice that the ( I ) chords move in major thirds........C-E-Ab ( G# )



This is just an example of how the circle of fifths can be used.....other patterns on the circle are only limited by your imagination..........

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:30:39


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

This is preety much straight forward..1-4-5. But you can add just about any chord you want to. Jerry









Jerry, tells us which chords you can add, how and why do you select certain chords, and how this relates to the 'circle of fifths'.......?

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:33:20


quote:

Originally posted by halbut

 

count around clockwise 4 places and you get to E.....









Hey Doug, this was my method of finding the relative minor on the 'circle of fifths'.............

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:40:42


Well you're the smart one figure it out for your self...just kidding. All of these riffs were in different keys and you don't need the cycle to figure out any other chords. If I was playing a simple 1-4-5 and to add more chords...like you said just use your imagination. You can add just about any chord you want...just as long as it fits. No cycle. Jerry

Addie - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:44:12


quote:

Originally posted by John Henry

 

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle


 




Father Christmas Gave Dad An Electric Blanket.



Blanket Exploded, And Dad Got Cold Feet.

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:49:17


Well you're the smart one figure it out for your self...just kidding. All of these riffs were in different keys and you don't need the cycle to figure out any other chords. If I was playing a simple 1-4-5 and to add more chords...like you said just use your imagination. You can add just about any chord you want...just as long as it fits. No cycle. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  17:52:01


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Well you're the smart one figure it out for your self...just kidding. All of these riffs were in different keys and you don't need the cycle to figure out any other chords. If I was playing a simple 1-4-5 and to add more chords...like you said just use your imagination. You can add just about any chord you want...just as long as it fits. No cycle. Jerry









Thanks Jerry, I am sure this is really useful information for all the students reading this topic........

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:00:28


Well it seems to me. If we have all this knowledge about the cycle why don't we spread the word. It's nothing for me to help. This site is for learning isn't it. So why don't we share the benefits of what we know. I think as time goes by we gain a little bit of knowledge that other people may not know about. Well it time to share these things...let the people know there's a whole more to fiddling than just learning a tune. What ya think old man. Jerry 

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:09:12


quote:
Originally posted by bluesmode

quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Double stops are called chords. Did you know you can play G double stops all over the neck well you can with all keys. Unless you hit an octive you are playing inversions. Jerry







technically, you need 3 notes to make a chord. double stops are intervals.






Two words: power chords.

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:13:56


Power chords...didn't think a bout that

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:20:13


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Well it seems to me. If we have all this knowledge about the cycle why don't we spread the word. It's nothing for me to help. This site is for learning isn't it. So why don't we share the benefits of what we know. I think as time goes by we gain a little bit of knowledge that other people may not know about. Well it time to share these things...let the people know there's a whole more to fiddling than just learning a tune. What ya think old man. Jerry 







Yes, this is exactly what I am thinking. I am sharing what I know but you keep everything you know secret....!?

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:28:58


I do no such a thing. I have giving this site a lot of what I know...look at my music page....and I ain't even done..

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:32:03


There is a time and a -place for everything. I think it is time to share our knowledge...for all of us..Dave, Doug, you and me...time is a wasting

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  18:37:59


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

I think it is time to share our knowledge...









I am waiting for your share of knowledge. I asked you a question and you say 'go figure it out for your self'...What kind of answer is that...?



Tell us something relevant to this topic YOU started, and please don't post your blues licks again, I don't listen to them... 


Edited by - buckhenry on 02/09/2017 18:38:58

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  19:05:09


I told you something relative to the thread Henry. I said you don't have to use the cycle if you don't need it. Now if it were something a little bit harder I may have said something different. Listen, If you have to use the cycle then use it...if you don't need to don't. The cycle is there us in case you need it..no more. I already explained why I use it...for songs I never heard or progressive songs I have never heard then I use it. I just don't spend my waking hours thinking about this stuff....I use it when I need it. I'll be glad not to use my blues licks anymore...because I'm sick of them too. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  19:26:32


Henry Henry Henry, Tell why is it that we just can't get along. I tell you things and you tell me things but still we just don't click.



If ever we do stand on common ground about things I'm sure I will already be in the ground. But you know what...I don't care....there's something about you that I like. So go ahead keep on punching me...and I'll punch you back. We'll look like two old farts playing

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  19:46:32


I am trying to have  discussions about playing the fiddle, I am always learning new stuff thats why I post things I know so people post what they know, theres always some new 'tid bit' we can learn. Thats why I keep on at you because you're a good fiddler and you know how to play but you never post stuff about how you play, you just keep posting your mp3's and they don't tell us nothing.............

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  20:26:15


Well Henry, You will find all kinds of information on my Double Stops thingy. I will play you all kinds of double stops and explane every single one of them to you. I will talk and play fifths, 7th, flat7  flat5,flat3 dim, aug, and the cycle. I will talk and show all of you intros,ex. I am not holding anything back on this one. I will tell just about all I know and then some. I will talk and play tripple and quad stops. Don't think I can do it....we'll see won't we.



Henry, I have so much to show you..so much. I figure it's now time to give back what I have learned through the years and give it to someone who could use it. It does me no good to take it to my grave. We are only here for a short time...and I know my time is just about up. Perhaps you should think about what time you have left...We ain't no spring chickens anymore. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  20:46:21


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

Perhaps you should think about what time you have left...We ain't no spring chickens anymore. Jerry









I don't care about how much time I got left, I don't think about it I just get on with living...when your time is up, it's up.....





Hey, look don't talk all about that stuff just for my sake, I know it all, do it for people who don't know it..



I wanna know how you use the circle of fifths because you mentioned you use it for tunes you dont know, but you never said HOW.......?

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2017:  21:28:32


Trust me..you'll see

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2017:  21:51:38


quote:

Originally posted by halbut

 
quote:


Originally posted by bluesmode

Could you please give me a specific example of how it would move thru the 1-7-3, 7-3-6, 3-6-2, 6-2-5










Well, each one of those progressions is a ...II-V-I.....which are all progressions of chords moving in fourths..






The example of the 'famous jazz players practice habit' is the ii-V-I progression played through modulations.......




Dm7-G7-CM7




​F#m7-B7-EM7




Bbm7-Eb7-AbM7




​Notice that the ( I ) chords move in major thirds........C-E-Ab ( G# )




This is just an example of how the circle of fifths can be used.....other patterns on the circle are only limited by your imagination..........







Henry: Thanks for taking the time to write this out and explain it to me. So then is this an example of modulation? I'd like to put these chords into my sequencer and see what it sounds like. 

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2017:  22:05:55


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

. So then is this an example of modulation? I'd like to put these chords into my sequencer and see what it sounds like. 









Dave, i am sure it is just one way practicing a chord progression around the circle. Going from CM7 to F#m7 may sound a little ambiguous...?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/13/2017:  20:25:45


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

If I was playing a simple 1-4-5 and to add more chords...like you said just use your imagination. You can add just about any chord you want...just as long as it fits. No cycle. Jerry







One simple trick is to make all the 1-4-5 chords into dominant sevenths and then add interest by lowering all the notes except the  roots to produce diminished chords, for example



G7 Gdim G7 G7 C7 Cdim C7 C7 G7 Gdim G7 G7 D7 Ddim C7 Cdim G7 Gdim D7 D7

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/14/2017:  03:23:55


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

For me its easier just to think of the relative minor as a minor third below the major key. That seems simpler than consulting the circle of fifths, .




How I usually think of a relative minor is just a step and half down from the major chord. That seems easier to me.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 02/14/2017 03:24:49

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/14/2017:  04:38:07


One interesting example I can think of for in key chord progression around cycle of fifths, is in "Fly Me To The Moon:";  which has Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - Bdim - E7; Am7  - Dm7 - G7 - C  (example in key of C).



quote:


Originally posted by halbut

 a ...II-V-I.....which are all progressions of chords moving in fourths..




Those are also could be considered cycle of ascending fifths, and can extend up to III7- VI7 - II7 - V7 - I



In that rather than feel of I to IV;  it's altering each chord to the feel of V7 (contains a tritone, major third and leading tone, wants to move to an idea of  I). So it's a fifth of a fifth of a fifth of a fifth of the Tonic;   Improvisation over each chord (with modulation), works to just use the same ideas of any regular V7.



quote:


Originally posted by halbut

So, unless you have photographic memory, you may need the circle of fifths to follow these transpositions and modulations.




I never found the circle of fifths as much important,  I just use alternative of knowing where any given interval is relative to the key. Whatever works for you.

buckhenry - Posted - 02/14/2017:  23:55:36


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

 








Those are also could be considered cycle of ascending fifths, and can extend up to III7- VI7 - II7 - V7 - I




This is a progression of dominate 7ths.....But, don't you mean descending fifths.?  G F E D C..........









I never found the circle of fifths as much important,  I just use alternative of knowing where any given interval is relative to the key. Whatever works for you.







           Me neither, I was just saying what the 'circle' can be used for. As you say, one can use intervals, and there is the 'Nashville numbers system'......



 



​How do you get two quotes in the one post.....?


Edited by - buckhenry on 02/14/2017 23:57:18

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/15/2017:  04:58:34


quote:

Originally posted by halbut

 

This is a progression of dominate 7ths.....But, don't you mean descending fifths.?  G F E D C..........








Maybe, descending is the proper terminology.. and would perhaps make sense I guess if looking at  a drawing of how a circle is made (does it matter which direction it's drawn clockwise or counterclockwise?)



I heard it referred to as ascending.... probably due to I learned it as a bass concept...(without circle illustration) and the movement, bass walk from chord to chord mostly goes up in pitch, ascends.

buckhenry - Posted - 02/15/2017:  13:33:19


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 


 








Maybe, descending is the proper terminology...









If i was to ascend 5 notes i would play G A B C D. Descending 5 notes I will play  G F E D C....

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/15/2017:  15:30:08


Just different ways to refer to intervals, and describe movement.



One is by counting scale steps up (or down).



Another is referring to harmonic relationship in larger context, usually of a tonic. So in the key of C; G A B C - is going from the fifth below, up to the tonic.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/16/2017:  20:05:03


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 
quote:


Originally posted by fujers

 


If I was playing a simple 1-4-5 and to add more chords...like you said just use your imagination. You can add just about any chord you want...just as long as it fits. No cycle. Jerry








One simple trick is to make all the 1-4-5 chords into dominant sevenths and then add interest by lowering all the notes except the  roots to produce diminished chords, for example




G7 Gdim G7 G7 C7 Cdim C7 C7 G7 Gdim G7 G7 D7 Ddim C7 Cdim G7 Gdim D7 D7







@mmuussiiccaall: I am VERY interested in this. I know my 3 dim arps and scales over 4 strings up and down, but I learned them as 'G start' 'Ab start' 'A start'. is the pattern you are describing a 12 or 16 bar or something else? Having some trouble sorting that out. Also, could you please give me the notes for the dim scales with G root, C root & D root. (I'm not lazy, but it would prolly take you a couple of minutes, whereas I could be stumbling around with it for who knows how long). Also also, any further tips on how I could use this in a blues 1 4 5.  



THANKS!!

buckhenry - Posted - 02/16/2017:  22:14:48


 


quote:


Originally posted by bluesmode

but I learned them as 'G start' 'Ab start' 'A start'. is the pattern you are describing a 12 or 16 bar or something else? Having some trouble sorting that out.



Also, could you please give me the notes for the dim scales with G root, C root & D root.  




 









I found this ''tid bit'' interesting too......but you must learn the dim arps beginning from any where..





Dim scales are a blend of any two dim arps....eg, G Bb  C# E......F# A C Eb....thus G A Bb C C# Eb E F#   or  G Ab Bb B C# D E F

bluesmode - Posted - 02/17/2017:  20:48:57


quote:

Originally posted by halbut






.....but you must learn the dim arps beginning from any where..







can I work on that later? I understand the arps & scales you typed out (thanks) but I understand them as finger patterns over 4 strings. I'd really like to get a grasp on what musical is saying. Is the arp or scale that goes over a G7: (G Bb C# F or F# A C Eb)   or  (G A Bb C C# Eb E F# or G Ab Bb B C# D E F)



The chord progression that musical shows doesn't seem to add up to a 12 or 16 bar. I'd like to know where to place this stuff, and I'm not sure whether musical was talking about playing arps or scales over the 1 4 5 progression. I suppose you could do either? depending on the number of measures or how fast you can play the scales.

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