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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Key Signatures; Necessary or Evil?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/45203

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Duckinacup - Posted - 10/15/2016:  08:14:13


What is the purpose of using keys/key signatures?  Why not write all music in one key - i.e. key of C with no sharps or flats - and then transpose all existing music into that key?  Or just leave the works as they are and annotate sharps and flats as necessary throughout the piece?  Although a key signature will reduce the number of accidentals (the # or b sign tagged onto a note to indicate is is a half step higher or lower than the written note), how does this help?  I mean, even if the written page is full of the extra information, it can still be read effectively- no one ever told me learning to play or read music was easy.  



But let's give some credence to the idea that reading a page of music without a lot of extra information that can be lumped into the key signature is, somehow easier.  Does it have any affect on the musician that cannot read music and plays solely by ear?  He/she will not see the added ink, but will hear the whole and half steps just as always.



 



 

abinigia - Posted - 10/15/2016:  08:57:22


Your thinking is backward. If you leave the sharps and flats out of the key signature and write them every time they're needed in the piece, there is a lot of extra ink. Key signatures are there to make the bars look cleaner, not junkier. Maybe I don't understand what is is you're suggesting...?

echord - Posted - 10/15/2016:  09:19:59


If you wrote all music in the key of C (no sharps or flats) you would have only a diatonic scale of 8 tones, like a harmonica. If you then transposed another key, such as A for example, into C you would introduce a bunch of "accidentals" into the score and make it harder to read. Each key also has its own tonality, so everything transposed into a C scale would lose that tonality, would it not? Or do I fail to understand the question?

boxbow - Posted - 10/15/2016:  10:07:23


If you eliminated the key signature and were simply planning to represent Do-Re-Mi for the reader to call out the tonic, you hardly need the staff.  The standard notation staff is itself a one-size-fits-all if you allow the key signature to do it's job, plus you eliminate most of the accidentals. 



Next problem is how would you know whether the tune was in a major key or in it's relative minor, i.e. C maj/A min.  Then there's modes. 



I think I follow what you're asking for.  There is important information that would be left out.  Alternately, it's assumed the additional information is already possessed by the reader.  If so, then the reader is already very familiar with the tune.  Perhaps it could be handy as a crib sheet for a by-ear player, and many do have their own crib sheets, so there is a demand.



I'll use standard notation, thanks.


Edited by - boxbow on 10/15/2016 10:15:18

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 10/15/2016:  11:20:29


key signatures are an effective, long lived, universal shorthand to clue players in as to what actual pitches to play.  yes, it may take a while before you can glance at a key signature and quickly know the key(s) it represents, but think of it in the same terms of learning another language.  it's practical.  it connects you to different world.  it increases your intelligence.

amwildman - Posted - 10/15/2016:  11:33:37


Notate a g flat major piece in your proposed system and then try playing it. I'd love to hear how it goes.


Edited by - amwildman on 10/15/2016 11:34:09

boxbow - Posted - 10/15/2016:  12:52:47


I'd like to add that I'm very glad I learned to read sheet music at an early age.  I had to relearn a while back, which was nothing, really.  If I had to learn from scratch now, I'd be working at it a lot harder.

buckhenry - Posted - 10/15/2016:  16:01:48


Musical notation is a language, you need to learn it and understand it before you can use it.





If the musician is solely an ear player then musical notation is of no use to them....

fujers - Posted - 10/15/2016:  17:00:56


Do what...Henry I don't believe you said that. Some of us are very smart people..in fact we have rocket engineers that can add 2+2 in a second...can you do that



But I agree in some ways and I disagree in an other way. Just because we learn by ear does not make you a less smarter person than the other. Yes we use the two things on the side of or heads and I wouldn't change that for anything 



I guess we pick up a little here a little there but we learn as we go. I mean, just because I can't read a lick does not make me a less of a musician than anyone else



Henry, You got to come play with us incompetent fiddlers. Read it on Soundoff page. Got some good stuff a brewing. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 10/15/2016:  17:25:24


Hey Jerry, I did not say anything against 'ear players' or 'note readers'...............!!!!



Just play music the best way you know how, either 'ear it' or 'read it'................or both.

fujers - Posted - 10/15/2016:  18:09:59


Thats ok I know you didn't mean any harm. The way I see it. You can't do any harm to no one on this site. We are all after the same thing. Now, did you read about the stuff thats in Soundoff

Fiddler - Posted - 10/15/2016:  18:13:58


Key signatures also have some very specific meanings. Here's an outline from 1806. There are others. I'll put in another post.



___________________



from Christian Schubart's Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst (1806)



C Major

Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, na�vety, children's talk.



C Minor

Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.



Db Major

A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.



C# Minor

Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.



D Major

The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.



D Minor

Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.



Eb Major

The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.



D# Minor

Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.



E Major

Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.



E minor



Naive, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major.





F Major

Complaisance & Calm.



F Minor

Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.



F# Major

Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.



F# Minor

A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.



G Major

Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.



G Minor

Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.



Ab Major

Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.



Ab Minor

Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.



A Major

This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.



A minor

Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.



Bb Major

Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.



Bb minor

A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.



B Major

Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.



B Minor

This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.



Translated by Rita Steblin in A History of Key Characteristics in the 18th and Early 19th Centuries. UMI Research Press (1983).



Key or mode descriptions from Charpentier's Regles de Composition ca. 1682

Fiddler - Posted - 10/15/2016:  18:29:03


Key or mode descriptions from Charpentier's Regles de Composition ca. 1682



C major:  gay and warlike



C minor: obscure and sad



D major: joyous and very warlike



D minor: serious and pious



Eb major: cruel and hard



E major: quarrelsome and boisterous



E minor: effeminate, amorous, plaintive



F major: furious and quick-tempered subjects



F minor: obscure and plaintive



G major: serious and magnificent



G minor: serious and magnificent



A major: joyful and pastoral



A minor: tender and plaintive



B major: harsh and plaintive



B minor: solitary and melancholic



Bb major: magnificent and joyful



Bb minor: obscure and terrible



________________



Key Characteristics



"Today many musicians claim to hear the different characteristics very clearly, and associate them with the emotional quality of the music. They will tell us that music played in the "open" key of C major---with neither flats nor sharps in the key signature---sounds strong and virile; played in the key of G, with one sharp, it sounds brighter and lighter; in D, with two sharps, even more so; and so on. Every additional sharp in the key signature is supposed to add to the brightness and sparkle of the music, while every flat contributes softness, pensiveness, and even melancholy.



From the English translation of Helmholtz's Tonempfindungen:



______



"... descriptions of keys from various writings ... (quoted from a book by Rita Steblin):

C Major:

   "Completely pure" (Schubart, 1784)

   "Cheerful and pure" (Knecht, 1792)

   "State of nature, virginal chastity and purity, lovely innocence of youth" (Heinse, 1795)

   "Naturalness and nobility" (Gervasoni, 1812)

   "Cheerful and pure; innocence and simplicity" (Weikert, 1827)

   "Simple, unadorned" (Schumann, 1835)

   "Concerning the physical expression of this key, it appears to be completely pure" (Schilling, 1835)

C-sharp minor:

   "Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God" (Schubart, 1784)

   "Despair" (Knecht, 1792; Schrader, 1827; Weikert, 1827; Ebhardt, 1830)

D major:

   "Gay things and grandeur" (Rousseau, 1691)

   "Joyful and very militant" (Charpentier, 1692)

   "Pleasant, joyful, bright, songs of victory" (Masson, 1697)

   "Songs of mirth and rejoicing; grandeur and magnificence" (Rameau, 1722)

   "Martial ardour" (Hawkins, 1776)

   "The key of triumph, of Hallelujahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing" (Gathy, 1835)

Eb minor:

   "Horrible, frightful" (Charpentier, 1692)

   "Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depression, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible Eb minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key" (Schubart, 1784)

E major:

   "Uplifting" (Junker, 1777)

   "Bright" (Gretry, 1797)

Bb minor:

   "Gloomy and terrible" (Charpentier, 1692)

   "Mournful songs" (Rameau, 1722)

   "Preparation for suicide sounds in this key" (Schubart, 1784)

fujers - Posted - 10/15/2016:  22:19:08


Very Nice Kirk, But do you use them. Me I don't. I sometimes use the cycle of 5th but the music I play I already know the tunes so no need to use the cycle. Now, I sometimes when I haven't heard the tune..all I need to know is the key and then I will use the cycle. Learning the cycle will help you play songs that you have never heard before.



Sometimes we use hand signs to let the player know what what the chord changes are because every song my not be the same Sometimes we just yell out the more with  difficult keys that are not norm for us top play in.



 Us fiddler player are mostly interested chords that are normal to use and with open strings. Like G,D,A like what is already on the fiddle. We then incorporate the other chords like C, F and E. I hope I didn't leave any thing out.



All these keys have some open strings and we love open strings right. Anytime we can use open strings we love it.



I don't know...theres a few people say that they use Ab and Eb and use them very well..I comment them on useing these keys..but by the time they leaned how to play these keys...I would have already wrote and played 3 tunes ahead of them useing the normal keys that are for the fiddle. Now Bb and E are exceptions because there are open notes in these two. B the are not many open note unless you play in second position. E is petty  cool key to play in and Bb there are more open notes that you can play in...now I just opened up a can of worms...trust me there is



Your primary notes are G,D,A,E,C,F,B,Bb,Eb. Playing in C#, F#, Ab are the keys you may want to stay a way from but thats lust me talking. Now, I do play in F# from time to time but C# I can play very little as well as Ab.



I don't know if you can play in the off key's and you can it it like you own it...be my guest..but remember this...if you want to play in these keys. I would have ready written and played 3 tunes in the keys that are natural to the fiddle.



So I guess. All the songs that are written in Bluegrass, Country, Western Swing and Old Time are written in keys that natural to use all. Anymore...I don't give two hoots about the other keys. Jerry

Addie - Posted - 10/15/2016:  23:18:40


Well, ok, we've covered key signatures.



Next topic, note names, necessary or evil?  cheeky



I think they've been around long enough to have real names.  Abby, Bob, Connie, Dave, Eva, Fred, and Georgina.      Yes, boy, girl, boy girl.  Instead of lines and spaces.  

Fiddler - Posted - 10/16/2016:  05:06:23


Jerry, in classical music the key signature is strong signal from the composer about the piece. Many classical music enthusiasts are familiar with the interpretations. I only have a marginal familiarity, but I know that if I am going to hear a piece in Cminor, it will may be stormy and heroic or it may be a declaration of love. (Each composer will have a their own interpretation of the emotion they are conveying. So, the lists I posted above are not absolute.) Anyway, those interpretation give me some insights in the music and helps me enjoy it at a deeper level.



In OT music, the key signature is also important. Think about the tunes. The more sharps, the "brighter" it is. This is important especially when you consider that amplification is a relatively new thing. Tunes in A cut through the haze and din of a dance party. Those modal, minor tunes are nearly always laments and convey longing or sadness. 



Why the preponderance of tune in D, G, A and C in OT fiddle music? This is my speculation - it has to do with the instrument and how it is tuned. Those are "forgiving" keys. One's intonation is not that critical in order to get a decent sound. Open-string drones are easy to do.



Then there are the flatted keys - F, Bb, Eb - why do they show up? Again, my speculation - the tunes were originally written in those keys. (Many Bb tunes are transposed to G.) Additionally, playing in flatted keys sent a signal that the fiddler was better than "ordinary" - he or she was a master of the instrument.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/16/2016:  07:53:17


I am not quite sure what the original post is proposing. But I do think that written music, tab or notation, less is often better. First of all, ditch than darn 2/4 time music. Small, cluttered, and hard to read. "Cut" time works better. Next, why include standard notation along with tablature ? A one or two page tune expands to 4 pages and I have to stop playing to turn pages. Who jumps back and forth between notation and tab ? And that darn "courtesy" sharp or flat when it isn't needed. When you leave a measure with a sharp/flat, all "bets are off". When I see one of these, my brain says "wait ! wait ! did you miss something ?" and my concentration is broken. BTW, a concert violinist told what the technical name for those irritating things was. I called them "$#@%".

Use the extra space to make the music a little bigger. More spiral bindings. So if a book isn't spiral bound, have a bigger left margin so I can go out and spend $3.00 to $5.00 extra to have it spiral bound.

One book with lots of text seems to be the exception though. Fiddler's Fakebook is full of useful information.

Old Scratch - Posted - 10/16/2016:  08:32:16


Thanks for all that, Kirk - what a treat, for those of a certain bent - and 'bent' is probably the word ....

pete_fiddle - Posted - 10/16/2016:  11:32:06


IMO the fiddle has 2 natural voices,(in standard tuning) one centred around E Dorian (Dmajor)  for Sharp keys, and the other centred around F Dorian(Eb Major) for flat keys, (east and west on the circle of 5ths, palindromic, symetrical  and bang in the centre of the fingerboard) there is no kudos attached to either, they are just different, it would just depend on how you learned to play as to which one was "easier" or "harder"

Addie - Posted - 10/16/2016:  12:14:21


quote:

Originally posted by Old Scratch

 

Thanks for all that, Kirk - what a treat, for those of a certain bent - and 'bent' is probably the word ....







"Bent" in quotes probably means something different in Canada than in the UK? 



But I agree, music theory historical trivia is fun and cool.  smiley

Fiddler - Posted - 10/18/2016:  11:13:31


When I learned that key signatures had a specific meaning in classical music, it opened up a whole new realm of understanding and appreciation.



Yes, all of this is fun and cool!  You can amaze your friends with all of this trivia and make them think you are a serious music snob. Of course, you can also bore them to death. The down side is that they will not invite you to the "cool" parties or exciting weekend camp outs.  And, when you go to the sports bar to watch the game, you will find yourself alone at a table.



 

Addie - Posted - 10/18/2016:  11:56:44


quote:

Originally posted by Fiddler


Yes, all of this is fun and cool!  You can amaze your friends with all of this trivia and make them think you are a serious music snob. Of course, you can also bore them to death. The down side is that they will not invite you to the "cool" parties or exciting weekend camp outs.  And, when you go to the sports bar to watch the game, you will find yourself alone at a table.

 







You seem to know a great deal about me... 



Fiddler - Posted - 10/18/2016:  21:27:43


I've learned some hard lessons in life. I think I'm on the verge of another. Must keep mouth shut. Must keep fingers off of keyboard. 



(FWIW - before posting, I just deleted a long diatribe about meaningless drivel -- and totally off topic. Whew!)

fujers - Posted - 10/19/2016:  20:14:01


Hey Fiddler, You won't be alone at that table...I'll be right there with you

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/20/2016:  09:24:52


It is all essentially written as in C with a key signature to keep it looking neat on the page. You point about the ear player is unnecessary since the ear player would not be looking at the page - with or without accidentals.Key signatures ensure we're all playing the same notes or complimentary notes.
Ever been in a group that played two different keys at once? Not too pleasant.

fujers - Posted - 10/21/2016:  13:16:37


Us people that play by ear could give two hoots about what a key signature is. Just tell us what key it is in...and away we go. I don't think people from long ago ever seen a piece of music...they made it up as they went. Thats my story and I'm sticking with it. Dr Strange

buckhenry - Posted - 10/21/2016:  14:14:30


 


 


Originally posted by fujers

 

I don't think people from long ago ever seen a piece of music...they made it up as they went.







Ha Ha, good one Jerry.......



I did a quick search on the history of music notation and I quote from WIKI........




 


 


The earliest form of musical notation can be found in a cuneiformtablet that was created at Nippur, in Sumer (today's Iraq), in about 2000 BC. quote:




 



Did ​you read that...? It says.....2000 BC...!  Not AD......!


Edited by - buckhenry on 10/21/2016 14:17:46

fujers - Posted - 10/21/2016:  14:50:31


 



Well Henry we have been here on earth for a very long time. I wonder what came first...notation or the ability to play. Things to ponder.



 



There are things about Wiki you might want to know. Did you know that anyone...you, me and a fence post can add to wiki. It's true. So if I say the sky is purple...and say it's red it get's noted in wiki. I don't put much trust in wiki because we can't know it all. Look up on the top page of wiki...you'll see contributions or something like that. Jerry


Edited by - fujers on 10/21/2016 14:56:15

buckhenry - Posted - 10/21/2016:  15:45:02


Hey Jerry, you should go into WIKI and correct that misleading fact about musical notation.



Because I think you are correct, we did'nt need no notation when we began warbling and banging sticks together in our caves....... 

fujers - Posted - 10/21/2016:  17:22:19


Henry, Now how would you me to present your name name on the CD...BTW. You sounded really great on the MP3. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 10/21/2016:  17:45:06


my name is on my email address................



 

Dick Hauser - Posted - 12/08/2016:  16:56:07


Well, we lost "Duckinacup".

buckhenry - Posted - 12/09/2016:  13:03:20


cryingquote:

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

Well, we lost "Duckinacup".







 

fujers - Posted - 12/09/2016:  13:53:47


Henry I looked for your name and it's not there. I looked for every Henry..every Butcher and nothing..unless I'm looking in the wrong place

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/14/2016:  13:35:28


quote:

Originally posted by Duckinacup

 

What is the purpose of using keys/key signatures?  Why not write all music in one key - i.e. key of C with no sharps or flats - and then transpose all existing music into that key?  Or just leave the works as they are and annotate sharps and flats as necessary throughout the piece?  Although a key signature will reduce the number of accidentals (the # or b sign tagged onto a note to indicate is is a half step higher or lower than the written note), how does this help?  I mean, even if the written page is full of the extra information, it can still be read effectively- no one ever told me learning to play or read music was easy.  




But let's give some credence to the idea that reading a page of music without a lot of extra information that can be lumped into the key signature is, somehow easier.  Does it have any affect on the musician that cannot read music and plays solely by ear?  He/she will not see the added ink, but will hear the whole and half steps just as always.




 




 







Duck... What we should be doing is Always playing with the C fingering, but change the strings such that no matter what key is indicated, we can still use the C fingering.. Not THAT is a good idea..!!

fujers - Posted - 12/14/2016:  16:59:39


I know Lee a lot of information isn't it. Thats why I like using my ears..the things on each side of your head. They don't lie, they don't require you to learn anything other than what you hear.



The note of you have to learn by notation to me...is something of an art by itself...but learning by ear is an art by it's self too.



If you can hear a bird up in the tree and play what it says..i more of a art than people who read will ever have



If you can hear the how a train is coming down the track and you can play it means more if you could play by note...whitch you can't.



Notation is good for some people...but these people that play notation...don't use there ears.



The ear is a powerful thing....people like you and me...use our ears...and the use of ears brings us much more enjoyment than those that read. Think about it. Jerry

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/14/2016:  17:16:13


Now, Jerry.  Be kind.. Many of us DO use both our ears and notation... Of course we are the cre'me de la cre'me ...! 



 

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 12/14/2016:  17:40:13


With the fiddle I'm 90% an ear guy but sometimes it's nice to be able to play off of a page.  In particular, apart from such stalwarts as Danny Boy or Irish Washerwoman, my Irish repertoire comes entirely from the O'Neal book.  I look at a page, see if a tune looks like it might be good, and then start sussing it out.  Before long I'm playing a piece of music I've never actually heard but still love the heck out of.  I have no idea how close or far I am from playing it in a way a genuine Irish player would approve of, but as far as I'm concerned I'm creating pretty nice music.  



My piano playing, meantime, is almost exclusively off the page.

buckhenry - Posted - 12/14/2016:  17:59:47


quote:

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

my Irish repertoire comes entirely from the O'Neal book. 









I have played from this book ( and many others ) for decades.



The tunes in all these books would take more than a life time to sit down and work them out just by listening, that's if you could find a recording, and with 99% of those tunes in books there are NO recordings......!? 



As you say, I can also look at the dots and hear the music in my head.



It is an admirable thing to dedicate one self entirely to ear playing, and I have done some my self, but I can not justify restricting myself to ear playing.



There is SO much more music to be played by reading dots, and thanks to those who took the time to write the music down. Imagine what would be lost if no one wrote down the music they composed or heard..........!? 

buckhenry - Posted - 12/14/2016:  18:13:09


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 




The ear is a powerful thing....people like you and me...use our ears...and the use of ears brings us much more enjoyment than those that read. Think about it. Jerry









I can understand what you are saying, and if you don't read the dots then you can not have an appreciation for it.....!?

fujers - Posted - 12/14/2016:  19:56:24


No No Lee I'm not being un kind or nothing like that. Man think if you can do both I say go for it. Thats where you want to be not someone like me that can only do one way. Don't get be wrong please. I always get caught with my pants down don't I. I think one thing and I write another. I need to get back on my phyco pills again...you know those red ones. Jerry


Edited by - fujers on 12/14/2016 20:04:21

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/16/2016:  09:27:15


Songs not only have a key but also a mode.



The accidentals throughout the body of music tells you the mode it is in.



Here's a chart.


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 12/16/2016 09:29:34


fujers - Posted - 12/16/2016:  14:31:13


Thanks Richard I'll find this chart very helpful

fujers - Posted - 12/16/2016:  14:40:35


Henry, We play one or the other..but being able to effectually play both..thats where its at. I play by ear and you know that...I can read a little bit mostly charts. But not notes I wish I could but can't and it's a little to far in the game to start. I wish I had started reading long ago..thats my fault. Anyway, I'm stuck in my own world and nothing will ever change and I know this. But if you can play in your own world there ain't nothing wrong with it. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 12/16/2016:  14:58:50


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 

Songs not only have a key but also a mode.




The accidentals throughout the body of music tells you the mode it is in.




Here's a chart.









Very interesting chart. But, what does it actually show....?





For instance.......





If G is Ionian, the notes are G A B C D E F#......( of course )



But if G is Dorian the notes are G A Bb C D E F..... ( what does ''add b2'' mean ? )



Which ''Dorian mode'' are you  talking about....? A is the dorian mode of G major.....A B C D E F# G...



D dorian has an F natural...D E F G A B C.....



And why ''no change'' for Aeolian.....? If it is G Aeolian then...  G A Bb C D Eb F...



But if you are talking about E Aeolian then you have supplied very ambiguous information.....!?



Maybe I need to open the theory books again because I thought I was an expert, a little rusty, it seems........

fujers - Posted - 12/16/2016:  15:07:49


Henry, Thats comfusing to me to. Like G it says to add a 2b is that in all keys..well in all keys it says to add a 2b. I don't get it



It is not the way I play modes by a long shot. Please explain Richard


Edited by - fujers on 12/16/2016 15:10:29

buckhenry - Posted - 12/16/2016:  15:11:54


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Henry, Thats comfusing to me to. Like G it says to add a 2b is that in all keys..well in all keys it says to add a 2b. I don't get it









I don't get it either, and I consider meself to be an expert......................!



 



 

fujers - Posted - 12/16/2016:  15:15:45


An expert you are..but the add notes to b is what gets me. I know how to play in modes..and I ain't stopping jut because someone says different. He'll have to explain this to use

fujers - Posted - 12/16/2016:  15:32:22


Example. His chart shows. Key sig E..in the next colume...Ionion D...now where are the rest of the notes. The same in every key. Unless he means the starting note for every mode... know what I mean. His chart just shows you the starting for all keys and all scales modes. I get it but I don't think it is to helpful. You need to know how to play the mode. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll go back to bed. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 12/16/2016:  19:05:11


I think I got it now.............





if Ab ionian has the key signature Bb Eb Ab Db.....



then Ab dorian has the Gb key.........Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb



and Ab phrygian has the E key...F# C# G# D#........no wait, thats not right.......it should be the key of Fb .....Bbb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb.



etc........but, Ab aeolian is in the key of Cb ......all notes are flatened...



same with all the aeolian modes, there is a change of key signature for them.....!?

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