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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Modes Modes Modes


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/44668

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fujers - Posted - 07/13/2016:  17:02:31


Let me introduce myself. My name is Becky and I am a fiddler player. Sounds like the beginnings of an AA meeting doesn't it.



I'm here to talk about modes. Have you ever heard a fiddle player just burning up the strings. We'll he or she was most likely playing in modes. You can play in modes and your regular scales at the same time. Modes..lets say that you were playing in Aeolian mode. Did you know that mixing the Aeolian and Dorian mode goes hand in hand. Just have to watch what notes you play or it could get out of hand. Did you know you don't have to use all your fingers to accomplish this.



There are many modes out there...you just have to find the ones that suit your playing thats all. Modes can be very fun to play in.For example take a tune like Sally Gooding thats all model playing. There are a whole bunch of tunes that are nothing but model playing. In fact most of the fiddle tunes we're written in model.



There's this crazy old man a very nice man on this very site thats says " If you don't practice..then things won't change...if you do practice you will see things change in time"



Now I don't get that. I mean I don't practice and I haven't seen any changes yet. I thought that if you just picked a fiddle some genie would just pop up and I would know everything there is. Well, I guess I was wrong..because I haven't seen no genie yet.



Back to modes. Most of what you learn,,either playing Bluegrass, Country, Irish and other is going to center around modes. It's just to where if you play western swing or jazz is where it takes a turn. In western swing and jazz you will have to learn a new approach to your playing and playing in modes just about goes out the window...most the time but not always. If it were me to do all over again. I would learn my modes. Becky 



hehehe

bsed - Posted - 07/13/2016:  18:17:32


I wish you lived a lot closer to where I do, Becky. I think I could learn a lot from you (wink, wink).



Yeah, I'd like to know more about modes. Like when somebody says a fiddle tune is 'modal', you should ask "Yeah, but which mode is it?"


Edited by - bsed on 07/13/2016 18:17:53

fujers - Posted - 07/13/2016:  18:27:29


Well, In some way Aolian and Dorian modes work well with the kind of music we play. Example I can play all day playing all day playing these two modes. I really can't tell you what notes to hit perhaps Dave Snow could help you some.



I think these two modes alone is well worth looking into a nd you don't have to use all your fingers and I think thats pretty cool. But depending on what you want to play you might have to use more fingers.



If I were you, I would research just these two modes. I think you will get more bang for your buck than regular scales.



But be warned...fun is awaiting. Jerry

graeme - Posted - 07/13/2016:  18:40:53


Yup.  Jerry, luv your playing.





More mystery talk of modes will put you to sleep faster than any pill on the planet.



 



If you're just doodlin' notes using modes, making melody, then probly two things hit you. In some modes you lose the major third of the scale, and both the dorian and aolian do this for you (but the mixolydian and lydian do not, nor does the ionian, of course), and only the lydian and ionian keep the raised leading note.  So some modes sound minor, some sound major. Some sound weird.





The representative harmonic progressions give you the roadmap to distinction.  Build chords from the scales (modes) and you will find more to think about.   But this has been done to death on this forum.

fujers - Posted - 07/13/2016:  23:02:35


Graeme, Am I not correct about Aeolian and Dorian. At least for the way I play I find mixing these tow scales with my regular scales work wonders for me. I know that sometimes mixing in some b3 or b7 or 5th can give you a different fill. But playing these two scales along with what you already play can open your eyes just a little bit.



I agree some of the modes are strange, but you know playing minors or majors is just a game of playing in conjunction with each other. You know like Am and C.



If you can combine both along with the modal playing....well you have it made. Being able to play both your major and miner with playing modes will take you far. The understanding of how modes work will get you further down the road



As you probably already know. Modal playing can be the easiest way of playing....and it can be hard. It all depends on how hard you want it to be. At least for me, I use model playing a lot in what I play...and sometimes I step out of the box. Jerry 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/14/2016:  14:40:00


I know what you are saying Jerry, because to  superimpose modes to achieve altered notes is a very simple way to give you many note choices.



I mean you dont want to be thinking about....''ah, which note is the flat 3rd in this chord''...if you do then you are too late..much quicker to superimpose a mode to achieved the desired notes.





But superimposing modes here and there is not about ''modal'' playing...thats when you stay in the one mode all the why through a tune and never alter any note.....



 



 



 

bluesmode - Posted - 07/14/2016:  16:09:05


@FacePalm: I never did understand what you mean by 'Superimpose', although you said I'm already doing it. Can you give me an example of superimposing what mode over what chord, key, or progression? would appreciate it.

bluesmode - Posted - 07/14/2016:  16:28:23


Jerry: I must disagree with you about Aeolian & Dorian being similar or interchangeable, even though they are only one semi-tone apart. To me, each church mode is a world apart.  Fiddling aside.....and imo.....



Dorian is a 'light' minor used extensively in jazz and can be used right along with the minor blues scale. It has a softer more airy quality than the other 2 minor modes.



Aeolian is the Sad / beautiful minor and can draw a certain amount of power form that.



Phrygian is the only mode that can be played over both a major and minor chord. Over a minor it can be dark and ominous, with power. Over a major chord you get Spanish/flaminco type stuff.



Mixolydian & Lydian both contain the Major 3rd which makes them  Major-ish. I've heard some say that mixo is in between a major and a minor, with the emphasis on the Major. Lydian can be tricky, as it needs more unusual chords and progressions. But I find it to be the most beautiful of all the modes...a mystical, ethereal quality, if played that way (not like the Simpsons theme.)



As for Locrian, nothing at all weird about it, a lovely sound imo. It has some tension, but that's what music is about...tension and release.

fujers - Posted - 07/14/2016:  16:54:03


Hey Dave, I'm so glad you know your modes I think that playing in modes just enhances you playing tremendously.



I mean you can play scales all you want but there nothing like playing in modes



What playing in modes offers me is to play different licks all offer the fret board and never really hit (well some times) the same lick twice. Well sometimes I do...but I just go up the board and play the same thing kinda with different notes.



I think that playing in modes is fun. Jerry 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/14/2016:  21:47:59


Superimpose...........say you are on the tonic chord of E major, this implies the Ionian scale....



But to play it bluesy or jazzy you play mixo to flatten the 7th note, or dorian for flat 3 and 7,  or aeolian for flat 3, 7 and 6....



Or phrygian sharp 3 for flat  6 ,7  and 9 ( Spanish mode ) .



And there are loads more alterations that can be done......So, it is easier to  think in terms of scales/modes rather individual notes..



I think this what Jerry is talking about.?



 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/15/2016:  03:47:31


....plus you've got a couple of octaves minimum to choose from, and the modes seem to reflect the chords in as far as, that you can substitute say a 7 mode (locrian) for a 5 mode (mixolydian) and they will achieve the same goal.. which is to end up on the tonic maybe... or make things interesting by staying in a dorian or lydian mode over the 5 chord (a well used jazzer trick)



there are hundreds of tricks with modes the same as there are with chords, one i like is to keep things in the fiddles register by playing / altering modes(as i would substitute chords on guitar)  that are in the fiddles natural voice (2nd/3rd position imo ) rather than screaming up the finger board or playing down in the basement (but sometimes that's nice as well)

bluesmode - Posted - 07/15/2016:  18:19:33


nope, I've never done this. I will prolly have more questions. smiley

bluesmode - Posted - 07/15/2016:  22:19:52


Henry & Pete: I at least have a concept now of Superimpose. Thanks!!...but I need it more specific. 



Pete: can you please give me a chord progression where I can substitute a Locrian for mixo, and a progression for Lydian over the 5 chord.



Can this be used in a 1-4-5? if so, what lydian scale would be used over the 5?



Sorry, it's just not sinking in. I should be able to do this, as it must be one major scale or another.



I can wait until whenever it is convenient for you.



many thanks. 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/16/2016:  00:19:18


The scale notes implied by the tonic major chord in E are.......E F# G# A B C# D#....which is the E major scale...



You can play the other scales/modes as mentioned above to suit the style of music over this chord E major...



Like I said before, you already do this. The word superimpose describes this aspect where one alters the notes of a scale/mode which are not found in the tonic key...



Such as in the blues progression 1 4 5 you can play the a tonic mixolydian mode on each chord......eg, A mixo, D mixo, E mixo..... 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/16/2016:  02:28:43


Dave: my concept is a simple one, just as i would use chord substitutions/alterations to simplify, prolong or alter a chord progression, i am trying to use the corresponding modes and/or alterations of the modes to do the same, it seems that as long as i pay attention to the original chord progression it sounds like i know what i am doing, i try and keep the same cadences, or play against them (using devices like staying on the 4th mode (Lydian) or the 2nd (Dorian) mode over a 5 chord, or say use a fruitier sounding Neapolitan 6th cadence to lead to a tonic, and sometimes i just try to re-enforce the chord progression by following it , this often sounds best, as the composer is probably a genius, and has worked out the best way round the tune



Anyway it will all be explained in my book "Music Theory According To Pete" which is waited for with baited breath by the Musical world, and will turn it upside down... or maybe not wink



 

bluesmode - Posted - 07/16/2016:  14:44:40


quote:

Originally posted by FacePalm

 

The scale notes implied by the tonic major chord in E are.......E F# G# A B C# D#....which is the E major scale...




You can play the other scales/modes as mentioned above to suit the style of music over this chord E major...




Like I said before, you already do this. The word superimpose describes this aspect where one alters the notes of a scale/mode which are not found in the tonic key...




Such as in the blues progression 1 4 5 you can play the a tonic mixolydian mode on each chord......eg, A mixo, D mixo, E mixo..... 







Henry: yes, I guess we've been down this road. for a 1 4 5 in E..... A, D, E mixo, I would tend to visualize them as D, G, A, major scales respectively, and let my ear do the rest. Visualizing the major scale patterns helps me to do the modal 3rd & 4th patterns, and the modal Locrian & Maj7 arp stuff.



"to suit the style of music over this E major" I think this is important, and well said.

bluesmode - Posted - 07/16/2016:  14:46:52


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

Dave: my concept is a simple one, just as i would use chord substitutions/alterations to simplify, prolong or alter a chord progression, i am trying to use the corresponding modes and/or alterations of the modes to do the same, it seems that as long as i pay attention to the original chord progression it sounds like i know what i am doing, i try and keep the same cadences, or play against them (using devices like staying on the 4th mode (Lydian) or the 2nd (Dorian) mode over a 5 chord, or say use a fruitier sounding Neapolitan 6th cadence to lead to a tonic, and sometimes i just try to re-enforce the chord progression by following it , this often sounds best, as the composer is probably a genius, and has worked out the best way round the tune




Anyway it will all be explained in my book "Music Theory According To Pete" which is waited for with baited breath by the Musical world, and will turn it upside down... or maybe not wink




 







Ok Pete, I'll chew on this. Thanks again.

buckhenry - Posted - 07/16/2016:  18:59:01


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode


 







A, D, E mixo, I would tend to visualize them as D, G, A, major scales respectively, and let my ear do the rest. Visualizing the major scale patterns helps me to do the modal 3rd & 4th patterns, and the modal Locrian & Maj7 arp stuff.




 







Of course you can look at it like this and it is just a matter of preference, every mode belongs to  a major scale, but it is not 'superimposing'. To superimpose means to play all the scales/modes over the same tonic, ie, A major, A Dorian, A phrygian, A lydian A mixo, A aeolian, etc, etc............thus you have the chord tones and extensions readily........​


Edited by - buckhenry on 07/16/2016 19:10:29

bluesmode - Posted - 07/17/2016:  21:35:52


@FacePalm: Ok, finally I see the light! I've never practiced them over the same tonic before. I'll hafta start. I just took a run thru for the A tonic. When I do it this way, I'm not thinking so much in major scales, but rather intervals. This is prolly a good thing. I had to take a couple of run thru's for A lydian & A locrian but otherwise, was fairly easy. Do you? can you? do this for all 12 tonics (if that's the right way to put it?) Prolly not that practical to be fluent in all 12?



So would the chord tones be something like this? or am I not getting it?



Amaj, Amin7, Amin, Amaj7, A7, Amin, Amin7b5  (is Amin correct for phrygian?)



​Thanks a lot for bearing with me.



 

haggis - Posted - 07/18/2016:  09:00:51


quote: Learn 2 scales , Am pentatonic for the minor modes, A major pentatonic for the major modes then add the 2 necessary notes to turn pentatonics into modes. Add b5/b3 for spice.

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

@FacePalm: Ok, finally I see the light! I've never practiced them over the same tonic before. I'll hafta start. I just took a run thru for the A tonic. When I do it this way, I'm not thinking so much in major scales, but rather intervals. This is prolly a good thing. I had to take a couple of run thru's for A lydian & A locrian but otherwise, was fairly easy. Do you? can you? do this for all 12 tonics (if that's the right way to put it?) Prolly not that practical to be fluent in all 12?




So would the chord tones be something like this? or am I not getting it?




Amaj, Amin7, Amin, Amaj7, A7, Amin, Amin7b5  (is Amin correct for phrygian?)




​Thanks a lot for bearing with me.




 







 

graeme - Posted - 07/18/2016:  17:01:21


Just learn one scale: the major scale.  Also learn all the 7th chords of a key, and to start the major scale from any tone in any 7th chord.





Blimey.



Now you can play all the modes in the most useful possibly way -- built from the chords for which the modes are used.





The chord progressions will determine whether you are using "Aeolian" or "Dorian", or "Mixolydian".  In most fiddling (celtic, old time, country, bluegrass, etc) you won't use the other modes much.



Get "The Sensible Scale Book" (search Amazon) and go to work.  Or not, I don't mind.



(Or, learn the major pentatonic scale on all chord roots: now you have a scale and the chord tones for all chords -- except the dim7th. But there's a trick for that issue, too. You can add one or two chromatic tones before any note in any major pentatonic scale, and you can use several major pentatonic scales for each chord. Now you have the full palette. But, seriously, you are better off learning all the major scales and seventh chords, as I outlined above.)



 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/18/2016:  21:42:41


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

@FacePalm: Ok, finally I see the light! I've never practiced them over the same tonic before. I'll hafta start.




 









Great and good idea.......................

fujers - Posted - 07/19/2016:  21:09:31


Wow, We talk some heavy stuff here don't we. You know these new people ain't going to understand a word we say.



They are just going to huh.



But It seems to me there should be a place to where we can all talk about the mysteries of music and fiddling of course.



If any of you new people are listening. You don't need any of this stuff to fiddle. You don't need to know anything of what we speak about. Thats is what to learn in the future.



I think I want to talk about the astrophysical side of playing...who's with me..hehe. Jerry



 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/20/2016:  01:44:51


 


quote:


Originally posted by fujers

 

Wow, We talk some heavy stuff here don't we. You know these new people ain't going to understand a word we say.




 




 









Well, I worked out a way to make it really very simple..............here, try this...



 





Pick an easy major scale, like G, play up and down an octave...G major, right!





Now......think what the note is a tone DOWN  from the G note......F, right!



Play in F major starting on the G note.......there we have G Dorian...



Then a tone down from F....E flat key, begin on G and you get G phrygian



​Then a semi tone down, followed by a tone and another tone and yet another tone down to find the remainder of the modes all on the same tonic......

fujers - Posted - 07/20/2016:  20:43:22


I know Henry, Isn't it cool. Lets say you play in G right. You can play just about any mode you want too in this key. It all depends on what your ending note is going to be. Some say that the Bb is not in the scale but it is just depends on what you play. Some say the Eb is not in the scale again it depends on what you play. The modes are interchangeable just like scales. Now you might run into some problems but they can be changes from what note you end on that's all. Modes are pretty cool for me at least. And these modes can be changed to whatever chords you choose.



Modes are just scales...if you learn how to use them a whole new world of playing opens up to you. Jerry



 

buckhenry - Posted - 07/20/2016:  21:42:39


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

 




Modes are just scales...if you learn how to use them a whole new world of playing opens up to you. Jerry




 









Tell us how you use them Jerry.....

fujers - Posted - 07/21/2016:  11:11:04


Note right now Henry. I don't think that a verbal talking about these things will do any good. I would like to do an audio of this. Right now I'm working on Double and Tripple . I will talk about how these work and where you get them. I will demonstrate how they are made. It ought to be a good lesson. Stay tuned. Jerry 


Edited by - fujers on 07/21/2016 11:13:07

graeme - Posted - 07/21/2016:  14:37:11


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Wow, We talk some heavy stuff here don't we. You know these new people ain't going to understand a word we say.




They are just going to huh.




But It seems to me there should be a place to where we can all talk about the mysteries of music and fiddling of course.




If any of you new people are listening. You don't need any of this stuff to fiddle. You don't need to know anything of what we speak about. Thats is what to learn in the future.




I think I want to talk about the astrophysical side of playing...who's with me..hehe. Jerry




 







Jerry, knowing music theory is a challenge only because there is a lot of it. Each little step is easy, very easy. But most often the steps belong in a logical sequence of knowledge, and if you chew into the middle of a sequence, it can all get "like astrophysics" for the uninitiated.





Knowing theory helps performing musicians in many situations. We often have to adjust harmony, or even provide "the chords" for a song. We often should arrange the music we play so that our available performers can do their best work, and get more satisfaction from their contributions.





I could elaborate further, but I see no point. When you know what is happening and why, it is not hard to bring theory into practice, and all of use who are "leaders in a musical context" often have to do this.





Your doodlin' approach might be satisfying if you sit on the stoop by yourself and muse your way through life, and you are welcome to do this, but it lets other people down when you let them think they needn't learn anything about music because it won't help them play better.



I hope Becky has long since found herself another "meeting", if she wants to develop general, widely-accepted musical expertise.

graeme - Posted - 07/21/2016:  14:50:24


Hi again, Jerry.



Here, enjoy this. It is an old jazz favourite, Night Train. I'm sure you know it.



youtube.com/watch?v=wt2mXecum-o





I suggest there is a point to knowing your theory.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/21/2016:  14:51:00


well, how are folks using the modes?



seems to me that its a genre / style  thing to me, or is it all just Bull ***t, should i just leave them alone and learn another bloody tune indecision ? or play touchy feely airy fairy fiddle... or is there a way through this maze, how are folk using them? and which genre / style are they using them in? which mode / modes would they use over a simple 5-1 cadence? and why? ....its hard to tune in when there is so much noise.



apologies for my approach but, jeez this thing is confusing,



here's an example of how i'm thinking of things.......



sometimes i like to use B locrian #6 over a E7(5) chord to lead to A minor(1) chord in gypsy jazz stuff, because it is the 2nd mode of  A harmonic minor, and it seems you can hang on to, or substitute a 2 chord for a 5 chord in jazzy stuff .....



does that make any sense to anybody?



more apologies for the rant but i really want to know if i'm heading up a dead end or not...frown

fujers - Posted - 07/21/2016:  19:51:32


Graeme, I know this tune well have played It it seems like a million times. This song to me fits right into Cotten Eye Joe, OBS and Devil Went Down To Georgia, Those three tunes I hate to play now and this one fits in that circle.



I can't tell you how much I hate these tunes. All the people I play with play it in the same key witch is E.



But as far as the tune we listing to they play it very well...nice harmonies



Pete, Don't get your panty hose all in a knot about the understanding about modes it will do you no good. I mean talking about b7 brd and all the other stuff will not help you to become a better fiddle player just the understanding of how you play is all that matters. If you just stay on what you know and what you understand will get you a lot further down the road. If you play something that sounds good...stick with with that thats all. You can learn all the modes you want to and still not sound as good as you play right now. If where to pick just one mode...witch would it be and I bet I know the answer...the answer is....the simplistic one right. If I were you don't play in modes there are other things that you can play...I don't now how far you have gotten on fiddle...but I'll bet you already play in modes and don't even know you do. Just keep it simple...thats what I do. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 07/21/2016:  20:58:08


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

well, how are folks using the modes?




 







..... not for fiddling....but for the way I play and who I play with, the church modes are one of the best things that's happened to me. Simply because of all the things you can do with modal major scales. I won't bother repeating all my tricks, as I've posted them more than once. But I use these tricks every time I'm at a jam. Most people I encounter at Jams have never heard the violin played this way, and they're impressed (you'll hafta take my word for that) 



admittedly, I don't get to use Lydian & Phrygian much, but just being able to Fly in a Blue Dream with Joe Satriani in C Lydian is worth it. For me, that's a RUSH.

bluesmode - Posted - 07/21/2016:  22:21:12


@graeme: You emphasize the importance of striving to attain a high level of musicianship, yes? That is only half of it. the other half is emotion. Take David Gilmore for instance. He's not a flashy guitarist, but he can put more emotion into a lick, riff or phrase than anyone I can think of. How 'bout Pete Townsend...not a lot of advanced technical stuff, but you could say he's the driving force behind the incredible energy that explodes from The Who. I could cite more examples, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Your statement "all of us who are Leaders in a musical context" bothers me a bit. Who passes out the 'leaders' badges? or is it self appointed?

buckhenry - Posted - 07/21/2016:  23:05:59


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 




sometimes i like to use B locrian #6 over a E7(5) chord to lead to A minor(1) chord in gypsy jazz stuff, because it is the 2nd mode of  A harmonic minor, and it seems you can hang on to, or substitute a 2 chord for a 5 chord in jazzy stuff .....




 









Why not just just play a Dom 7th b9 chord without the tonic in a perfect cadence......?

buckhenry - Posted - 07/21/2016:  23:19:40


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 




Pete, Don't get your panty hose all in a knot about the understanding about modes









Jerry, I think Pete understands modes very, he has demonstrated that quit often....



I wanna know how you use modes, you never tell us nothing, you just keep it all secret.....

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/22/2016:  02:30:04


Ok, it looks to me like there are a few ways to use a knowledge of the modes



1: alter the modes to fit a chord progression



2: construct chords from the mode you are improvising with, or using as the melody



3: alter (or not) a mode over a Tonic Drone



4: use 2 or more melodic lines from different modes and let them form harmonies ??



5: strip them down to pentatonics triads or quadriads for chording, arpeggio's or pentatonic melodies



6: use them as patterns for fingering/bowing strategy in passages or improvisations



7: analyzing,composing, voicing/revoicing, or harmonizing passages



8: a mixture of any of the above



i think that's enough for me to be getting on with

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 07/22/2016:  10:39:56


I think in terms of modal scales, but I don't over-analyze it.  For example, I generally know which modal scale I'm in.  I know that Mixolydian is a major scale with a lowered 7th. I know that a Dorian scale has an additional lowered 3rd. Those plus the major scale are most common. I know that Aeolian is Dorian with an additional lowered 6th.



In my list of tunes, I keep track of tunes by modal scale, not worrying if everything has been identified perfectly. To use A as an example, I have a long list of A tunes that I mostly play in AEAE, with some exceptions like Fire on the Mountain.  I have a shorter list of A Mixolydian tunes, for example Ducks on the Pond. All of the A modal tunes use a G natural, so I play them all in a standard GDAE tuning.  I have an even shorter list of A Dorian tunes, for example Frosty Morning. And I have one A Aeolian tune, Pretty Little Dog.  That's how I think of it. Before I play a tune in a jam session, I'll often play that scale as a warmup, noting the patterns of my fingers on the different strings.



The scales are sounds in my head. I could care less what the relative major key signature is most of the time. That's ink on paper.



Other people think of things differently, especially fretted instrument players. They often memorize chord sequences of tunes and call them out. I can use that information a little bit, but mostly I just hear chord sequences in my head.





Modal scales are also useful for understanding some patterns. For example, it's common for tunes to hop back and forth between Major and Mixolydian, going back and forth between the natural and flatted 7th. Using A as an example, that means it's common for A tunes to have both G and G# notes.





So to me, knowing a few basic things about modal scales is useful. I don't over-analyze it.

DougD - Posted - 07/22/2016:  10:57:53


Ernie, that's about the way I use and think of modes. Some of the other folks here must be playing other styles of music. I was taught that Locrian was "a largely imaginary mode of no practical use because it doesn't contain a perfect fifth."



"Why not just play a Dom 7th b9 chord without the tonic" - Geez Henry, why not just call it a B diminished 7th? Seems simpler to me.


pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/22/2016:  13:18:58


yes i play quite a lot of fiddle tunes that i think of like RconMtnErnie, (but not in open tunings) and they are great fun, but if i want to play any other type of music eg: jazz standards, Gypsy jazz, Eastern European,  Swing, Klezmer etc etc, i need to know the fingerboard up to at the very least 3rd pos, and in keys from at least from 4 sharps to 4 flats, (so why not just learn em all) and thinking in modes not only makes things easier to memorize, but also starts to make musical sense as well, patterns start to emerge (same as they do for Guitar chords) for different genres/ composers/ regions, and after a while i find myself trying out different ways around things, which may sound complicated in writing, but are actually easier in practice, once i can explain to myself what i am doing by thinking modally



but i suppose if a player is interested in jamming with  tunes from a particular genre, and in a generally accepted key they don't need to know any of that (just learn the tunes)



ps: i can most definitely assure anyone that the Locrian and  Lydian modes are not imaginary, i use em quite often

fujers - Posted - 07/22/2016:  13:21:50


Now Henry thats just not true. I have shared a lot with you, Now didn't I bring you "Ghostin". Didn't I bring you "Blues Licks" and how about all the licks you can play in just about every key. I've brought you a lot and more so than any other on this web site



As far as modes go. It's on the back burner for now. I've been working on "Double and Triple stops" I'll get to modes but not right now. Besides you can't play without a fiddle. Mine is still in the shop. Have patients my friends it's coming


DougD - Posted - 07/22/2016:  13:47:33


Pete, my tablet just ate my thoughtful reply. More later.


buckhenry - Posted - 07/22/2016:  16:15:31


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

 

Some of the other folks here must be playing other styles of music.



"Why not just play a Dom 7th b9 chord without the tonic" - Geez Henry, why not just call it a B diminished 7th? Seems simpler to me.


 






Thanks Doug, you just proved my point that each aspect of theory has many ways of looking at it., that fascinates me.



And quit right, we are talking about improvised styles of music which may use various modes over the same tonic..



 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 07/22/2016:  17:58:07


Here's yet another chart that gives the names of most the chords that harmonize with the Harmonic Minor Scale family. For more info see fiddlehangout.com/topic/42948


bluesmode - Posted - 07/22/2016:  19:24:40


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

 

>>Some of the other folks here must be playing other styles of music. I was taught that Locrian was "a largely imaginary mode of no practical use because it doesn't contain a perfect fifth"<<


 




youtube.com/watch?v=UM_EvoSMyBI



I use Locrian arpeggios over any mode, all the time. They sound wonderful.


Edited by - bluesmode on 07/22/2016 19:29:45

buckhenry - Posted - 07/22/2016:  23:06:19


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 
quote:


Originally posted by DougD



I use Locrian arpeggios over any mode, all the time. They sound wonderful.









You do mean the F#m 7 b5 arp over all the modes in G major...? How do you make it sound wonderful..?





To my ears this sounds weird, maybe I need to condition my ears a little more...



 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/23/2016:  03:28:25



 





Why not just just play a Dom 7th b9 chord without the tonic in a perfect cadence......?




way i'm looking at it, i wouldn't be playing a chord (i would leave that to the accompaniment), i would be using a locrian#6 mode (single notes), to improvise over a V7-1min chord progression, i think would outline a min7(b5, b9) or half diminished(b9) chord, if i stacked the notes up



sounds complicated, but if i just noodle around with this this shape/pattern over the V7(E7) 1min(Am) progression its not so difficult, and sounds pretty standard to me,


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/23/2016 03:36:06

bluesmode - Posted - 07/23/2016:  16:33:14


is this relevant? Aebersold shows a bunch of patterns for half diminished > V7+ 9 > 1 min. for Cmin....

D half diminished = D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, to...
G7+9 diminished/whole tone = G, Ab, Bb, B, C#, D#, F, G to...
Cmin.

The patterns he offers for this minor II - V7 - I are very pretty. Quite melancholy, but beautiful.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/24/2016:  03:05:36


is this relevant? Aebersold shows a bunch of patterns for half diminished > V7+ 9 > 1 min. for Cmin....



D half diminished = D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, to...

G7+9 diminished/whole tone = G, Ab, Bb, B, C#, D#, F, G to...

Cmin.



The patterns he offers for this minor II - V7 - I are very pretty. Quite melancholy, but beautiful.





Thanks for that Dave



I get the half diminished scale (2nd mode of the minor), but the Altered scale over the V7 got me for a while, i thought

"how is the 7th mode of the Ab melodic minor going with the V7 chord of C minor??"..... google google ....Ahhh....



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_scale

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/24/2016:  14:29:22


i like this guys explanation youtube.com/watch?v=K-V0k8D_Ojo

bluesmode - Posted - 07/24/2016:  21:44:27


quote:

Originally posted by FacePalm

 
quote:


Originally posted by bluesmode

 


quote:


Originally posted by DougD



I use Locrian arpeggios over any mode, all the time. They sound wonderful.










You do mean the F#m 7 b5 arp over all the modes in G major...? How do you make it sound wonderful..?






To my ears this sounds weird, maybe I need to condition my ears a little more...




 







nope, there is a different min7b5 arp for every modal major scale, Trouble is, I think out min7b5 as min6, same thing - inversion. So if I'm playing in a Cmaj scale, doesn't matter which mode the Cmaj scale is being used for, I could throw Dmin6 arps over it. if I was using a G maj scale for any mode, it would be an Amin6 arp. Dmaj = Emin6 arp. the Emin6 arp is a bit tricky over 4 strings, but once you've got it, sounds great. So the easy formula is, go a whole up from the modal major scale you're using and play it as a min6 arp.



it was only a few years ago that I discovered the min6 was an inversion of min7b5. But I've had the min6 arps memorized for 30 years, so I hafta explain it as min6. I can figure it out if I take the time, eg. Cmin6 = Amin7b5,



But yes, the way you describe it would sound weird. ummm...very weird. I guess I don't explain it that well.



might as well continue... in a Cmaj scale, any mode, I often use Cmaj7 or Fmaj7 arps. All three of these arps (the 2 maj7 & the Dmin6).... each of these arps contain different notes and common notes, but all notes of the arps are contained in the Cmaj scale. To my ear, that's what gives the 'outside' feel, and adds vertical interest to linear scale patterns.



  


Edited by - bluesmode on 07/24/2016 21:54:17

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