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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Locrian Arps over any mode demo'd by David Wallimann


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/44368

bluesmode - Posted - 05/23/2016:  22:44:32


youtube.com/watch?v=UM_EvoSMyBI



I asked David Wallimann how to copy and post his video... he said just post the link direct....I'm not sure what that means, so I'm just typing in the address and see if it turns in to a link when I post it.



sure would like to show this...hope it works.



...nope...I've tried to copy it, save it, and what not, but I can't figure it out.



can anyone turn this address into a link for me? (sorry to be such a dullard) if so, the meat of the lesson starts around 2:25



Edited by - bluesmode on 05/23/2016 23:01:26

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 05/24/2016:  08:48:37


youtube.com/watch?v=UM_EvoSMyBI



 



On the line above(when you're making your post), right next to the smiley face, is a little blue/greenish thingee(you can see how technical I am too, LOL) click on that and then you can activate a link into a post.



Edited by - bandsmcnamar on 05/24/2016 08:49:36

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/24/2016:  10:20:02


Dave does this guy make sense to you?



he doesn't to me, its all a bit vague, it seems to me what he is doing is,squeezing an m7b5 arp over a backing track constructed from another mode from the same major scale (Ionian mode), or its relative natural minor (Aolian mode), or its Dorian mode... etc, without any context, direction or resolution, so it just leaves things "floating" all the time



OK if i want to float, but what do i do if i want  departure, resolution or a Key change etc?



PS: heres your link made active youtube.com/watch?v=UM_EvoSMyBI 



just select - copy - paste the link, into the link box that pops up if you click on the "link" box immediately  to the right of the smiley face, at the top of the text editor that you use to post, or reply to this topic


buckhenry - Posted - 05/24/2016:  17:42:37


I had to watch this vid a couple of times, but I sused it out......





The topic should read...'locrian arps over any mode of the major scale'...





Because if you change key you gotta change the arp....





So, the arp F#m 7 b5 fits over all the modes of the G major scale. And emphasis is placed on the locrian arp notes no matter which mode you are in, thus the different feels.





He threw me off when he mentioned C aeolian, which  is in the key of Eb, thus Dm7b5 arp..........loc arp of Eb.


haggis - Posted - 05/24/2016:  17:45:27


He is over egging the pudding. Sounds like he is saying a lot, but not really. D Locrian over C Aeolian, is that not very much like noodling around in Eb , for want of an easier way of looking at it?

bluesmode - Posted - 05/24/2016:  18:24:40


bluesmode - Posted - 05/24/2016:  19:06:35


..don't know why the above was blank.... and thanks a lot for linking it. I had someone show me how today, I wrote it down, hope I can remember.

@ pete-fiddle: it makes perfect sense to me, I just take it at face value the way he explains it. you would resolve the min7b5 arps to the full scale or scale fragments of the applicable mode. Like he says mix the arps in with the mode scale.... it opens the scale up and sends it a little outside, no? I find it very easy, cuz I've had most of these arps memorized for many years, although I learned them as min6 arps, which is just an inversion of min7b5 arps. Maybe it's just me, but I think they sound very cool mixed in with other mode riffs.

@ Henry: you are right 'any mode of the major scale'. I think you have got the 'Jist' of this thing. If I'm doing a dom7 I-4-5, I can use the loc arp with the 1, the different loc arp for the 4, and usually back to #1 arp for the 5. Keeping in mind I'm not just playing these arps over the whole 1-4-5, but mixing them in with other riffs etc.

...but if you're in a chord progression that stays in the same mode for an extended period, that' where you can really fly with this. Mix the min7b5 arps in with blues scale, pents, major scale patterns of the mode you're in like triads or 4ths, ascending/descending. whatever you can do with a major scale...because that' what the church modes are...major scales.

one final anecdote and I'll give it a rest. There is a top notch jazz violinist (classically trained) in town here, whom I've known for a long time, even took some lessons from him years ago. I bump into him every so often at Safeway, last time was about a year ago. I asked him what he was working on, he said min7b5 stuff to go with other stuff. I said no kidding, I'm working on min7b5 arps to go with modes. He said 'cool'. He was on his way out so he didn't have time to elaborate on the 'stuff' he was working on. But it made me feel pretty good to know that a player of his skill level was on a similar wave length as me.

boxbow - Posted - 05/24/2016:  19:08:54


Not only did he say that the Locrian mode didn't see much use, he demonstrated why.  "Floaty" ain't a bad description.  Way over my pay grade.


bluesmode - Posted - 05/24/2016:  19:31:30


Floaty? maybe. for me it seems more like flying around a little outside of the envelope?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/25/2016:  00:38:53


i think one of the uses for the m7b5 "chord" is made in gypsy jazz,(not exclusively) where the same chord "shape" on guitar, can be used for a half diminished, min6, or even a 9th chord with no root, eg: Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G9 no root, (leave the bass player to supply that)



to my ear, the locrian mode,(or locrian#6 in harmonic minor), a pentatonic scale constructed from it, or the m7b5 arpeggio, can be used in the same way, and take its "place" in the progression, (as a chord, arpeggio, or modal scale, in the progression, or a substitution or addition to the progression ) this way of using it seems less "floaty" and more directed imo



i think there are other uses for it in blues playing/composition as well, utilizing the b3,b5, and b7?.. but this is all just my opinion, i may very well get into "floating" in the near futurecool


buckhenry - Posted - 05/25/2016:  01:17:02


quote:

Originally posted by haggis

 

D Locrian over C Aeolian, is that not very much like noodling around in Eb , for want of an easier way of looking at it?







Yes, but, the tones of the Locrian arp are emphasized, not the tones of the mode.


buckhenry - Posted - 05/25/2016:  01:23:14


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

..............or even a 9th chord with no root,









The minor 7th flat 5 is not a diminshed arp.... ( m7b5 = m3. m3. M3 )   ( dim arp= m3 m3 m3 )



 


pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/25/2016:  05:46:08


No its "half diminished" Henry, i think full diminished is bb7?


buckhenry - Posted - 05/25/2016:  15:11:16


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

I asked him what he was working on, he said min7b5 stuff to go with other stuff.









I think he reads this forum to see what you are up too......Come on Dave, tell us who he is.





I certainly got the ''gist'' of it......this is the same principle as applied to all other scales and modes.





Such as the 'Vdom 7 b9', sounds cool to weave around the tones of this arp while the tonic chord is sounded.



Then you got the 'IIdom7b9'' which gives you the b5 and bb7 tones..... 



 


bluesmode - Posted - 05/25/2016:  20:48:30


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

 eg: Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G9 no root,







yup, to this day when I play these arps, I think them out as min6. When I first heard this video I thought...these arps sound VERY familiar. it wasn't long before I figured out that min6 was an inversion of what Wallimann was doing, and i was off like a shot cuz I new most of my min6 arps from years before thru some Jamie Aebersold blues stuff. I find the 'formula' very quickly in my head thusly: Say you're in a Cmaj scale (which could be any of the modes in different keys) I just go up a whole tone and do the min6 pattern. eg: Cmaj scale = Dmin6.



the next thing I hafta get off my Chest (previous thread) there are 2 Maj7 arps than can so right along with this...still in Cmaj scale....Cmaj7 (obviously) and also Fmaj7. So now we have 3 different arps with common notes and different notes, but all notes that are contained in the Cmaj scale.....3 different 'colors'.... for any mode that uses the Cmaj scale, you could go up the Cmaj7, down the "min6"  and back up the Fmaj7 hitting common notes and different notes within the Cmaj scale.



when I play the Majj7 arps I usually start and/or end them on the maj7 note, just because it usually seems to go better withe the chosen mode. I even asked Wallimann if these Maj7 arps worked the same way as the Locrian arps and if it was 'valid' , he said yes.


bluesmode - Posted - 05/25/2016:  21:05:27


quote:

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 
quote:


Originally posted by bluesmode

I asked him what he was working on, he said min7b5 stuff to go with other stuff.










I think he reads this forum to see what you are up too......Come on Dave, tell us who he is.






I certainly got the ''gist'' of it......this is the same principle as applied to all other scales and modes.






Such as the 'Vdom 7 b9', sounds cool to weave around the tones of this arp while the tonic chord is sounded.




Then you got the 'IIdom7b9'' which gives you the b5 and bb7 tones..... 




 







I know that guys like You, Pete, and many others here are way ahead of me in the Big Picture of Theory. I just keep stumbling alongsmiley



..as for the Jazz violinist, his name is Karl Rothe, interestingly, he has a very nice Roth violin (besides electrics) only his name and the violin are spelled differently, but I don't know if the 'e' belongs to the man or the violin, but they are pronounced the same.



....I don't think he's the kinda guy to frequent violin web-sites. He put out one CD that I know of...."Everybody Wants to be a Cat"



 


buckhenry - Posted - 05/25/2016:  22:36:01


I got me self one....the violin name is spelt Roth.


buckhenry - Posted - 05/26/2016:  14:24:29


And Karl spells his name the same as above. I just checked him out on FB and utube......Strange, I did'nt hear him play any Loc Arps.....?


bluesmode - Posted - 05/26/2016:  21:13:32


....maybe he just wasn't in the mood for Locrian mode.

congratulations on owning a Roth. The one Karl has does not have big volume, but it's VERY sweet. He's got the bridge lowered on it. I asked him about that and he just said "I like the strings low"

buckhenry - Posted - 05/26/2016:  23:38:23


Hang on........I thought we was talkin bout the 'loc arp' over any mode, not the loc mode it self....?


pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/27/2016:  02:40:56


just realized that i've been using C# locrian to play an old time tune, "Bentons Dream" which most folk here would say was in the key of A(modal) so this stuff does apply to old time tunes as well, enlightenedlaugh



 



 


pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/27/2016:  03:12:50


....and B locrian to play  parts of  "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom" in G (modal)laugh



.......hang on there's a recipe for old time modal tunes emerging



Edited by - pete_fiddle on 05/27/2016 03:22:42

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/27/2016:  06:13:47


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

....and B locrian to play  parts of  "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom" in G (modal)laugh




.......hang on there's a recipe for old time modal tunes emerging







Yep, notice Db Locrian = A Mixolydian




Mode Equivalents

   

bluesmode - Posted - 05/27/2016:  13:25:28


quote:

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 

Hang on........I thought we was talkin bout the 'loc arp' over any mode, not the loc mode it self....?







yes, Loc arps over any mode. I mis-spoke. sorry.



Edited by - bluesmode on 05/27/2016 13:27:32

bluesmode - Posted - 05/27/2016:  13:37:44


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 
quote:


Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 


....and B locrian to play  parts of  "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom" in G (modal)laugh




.......hang on there's a recipe for old time modal tunes emerging








Yep, notice Db Locrian = A Mixolydian







I was going to ask Pete...when he said A (modal) & G (modal)... what modes were they. I'm guessing either mixo or dorian for fiddle tunes.



if I'm in mixo or dorian, I often use the applicable Loc arp (or in my case the min6 arp as I think of it.) so I'm thinking if you're doing a fiddle tune, and you want a bit of a fill, why not try 'weaving' (good descriptive word, Henry) one of these in as a fill. Would that work?


buckhenry - Posted - 05/27/2016:  22:44:17


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 

 







Yep, notice Db Locrian = A Mixolydian









Egads, you got Gb and Db in the key of D major.....D E Gb G A B Db





What is it with this....are you deliberately trying to  throw people into confusion....?



 





Yeah....'weaving', got it from reading the 'Stones' biographies. There are others....meanderng.





I thought I heard Andy Reiner do some fills with off key arps in a fiddle tune.


bluesmode - Posted - 05/28/2016:  01:18:08


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 
quote:


 




Yep, notice Db Locrian = A Mixolydian









A mixo = A7 chord = Dmaj scale = Emin6 arp = Gmaj7 arp = Dmaj7 arp.



That's the way I'd think it out, could think it out pretty quick, and I might want to 'meander' thru those arps if it was a lazy A7 chord smiley



Edited by - bluesmode on 05/28/2016 01:24:21

haggis - Posted - 05/29/2016:  14:36:45


Db Locrian = A Mix ? If you mean C# Locrian = A Mix this makes sense to me only in as much as the arpeggio based on the Locrian contains 3 of the 4 notes in an A dominant 7 chord/arpeggio, which , in itself would normally employ the mixolydian mode. This is why one often subs for the other......but talk of Db does serve to confuse I feel?

bluesmode - Posted - 05/29/2016:  21:06:48


the difference between Db and C# is only 'theoretical' ? laugh


buckhenry - Posted - 05/30/2016:  02:59:04


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

the difference between Db and C# is only 'theoretical' ? laugh







This is absolutely correct, and if you don't read musical notation the difference doesn't even matter.



But scales are written in alphabetical order. Imagine what it would look like on paper if you harmonize the scale D E Gb G A B  Db.........the orchestra would down tools....?


pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/30/2016:  04:19:02


sort of does matter even if your not reading a score, if you differentiate between sharp keys and flat  in your way of thinking about stuff, it may just throw you off,  until you write it out the way you like it,  but i think i can see why mmuussiiccaall has done it for his chart...  keeps it cleaner and still makes its point, i mean by the time you are playing a...... (google, google)..... Dorian b9 mode over a bar or two  of  the Lydian dominant chord  you should know your enharmonic equivalentswink


buckhenry - Posted - 05/30/2016:  14:33:06


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

sort of does matter even if your not reading a score, if you differentiate between sharp keys and flat  in your way of thinking about stuff, it may just throw you off,  until you write it out the way you like it,  but i think i can see why mmuussiiccaall has done it for his chart...  keeps it cleaner and still makes its point, i mean by the time you are playing a...... (google, google)..... Dorian b9 mode over a bar or two  of  the Lydian dominant chord  you should know your enharmonic equivalentswink







He He , LOL, good one Pete.



 



 


Chops Chomper - Posted - 05/31/2016:  12:25:25


Isn't it nice to see how these things work. You can take one mode and play over just about anything and never look back. I also play guitar and I khow what this guy is talking about. Nice to see someone explaining it. Thanks for the post. Jerry


buckhenry - Posted - 05/31/2016:  14:30:49


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

You can take one mode and play over just about anything









I heard my friend do this once but he didn't know the key so he had no idea what he was doing, it does sound way out there.





But this topic is about the emphasis on the notes of one particular arpeggio over any mode, so you gotta be in the right mode. 


Chops Chomper - Posted - 05/31/2016:  16:00:41


Yes but no. Lets take an Am and D7-9 chord. You can play an Am and a Mixolidian mode all day over the chords. Have you ever listen to light jazz you now something nice an easy. You will notice that there's not many chords being played and when they do change chords it's an alternative set of chords. These alternative chords sounds like you changed chords but they didn't. I like playing these things. I can play some neat stuff over just two chords and it sounds like I played over four chords. Neat little tricks. Jerry   


buckhenry - Posted - 05/31/2016:  16:37:38


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Yes but no. Lets take an Am and D7-9 chord. You can play an Am and a Mixolidian mode all day over the chords.   







So............are you emphasizing the tones of the ''locrian arpeggio''...? Because that's what we are talking about..?


bluesmode - Posted - 05/31/2016:  17:12:52


youtube.com/watch?v=_36Sq_tURjI



Sorry to interrupt, but DOGGONE IT, something went haywire with my linking....something about browser security settings.



anyways, I wanted to post this jam track for Lydian...starts out with a short Guitar example for C Lydian and then it goes into a little 2 chord Lydian jam track.



My 'formula' for this would be C Lydian =  G maj scale = Am6 (F#min7b5) arps = Gmaj7 = Cmaj7 arps.  As previously mentioned, I usually start and/or end the Maj7 arps on the maj7 note.



Now I'll hafta nail down the neighborhood computer genius to find out what went wrong with the links.



..hope y'all don't mind me throwing this 'wrench' into the present conversation. 


Chops Chomper - Posted - 05/31/2016:  17:25:34


Sorry talking about mixo.. I'll bow out


bluesmode - Posted - 05/31/2016:  20:15:10


youtube.com/watch?v=_36Sq_tURjI



Ok, there's the link! I just went thru Internet explorer and it appeared.



...not the best back track for Lydian. I've got a more complex and nicer one in my sequencer. Just thought if anyone wanted to jam in Lydian using these arps, at least it would give you an Idea of the change in color over Lydian. I believe Wallimann only demo'd them in Ionian, dorian, and aeolean. 


Chops Chomper - Posted - 05/31/2016:  20:31:44


I'm a guitar player too. I think that you are bringing these modes in to place. Although some of these fiddles won't understand this things but I do. These little things about how modes can greatly be of an effluence to a fiddlers perspective about how things could be played are important. These scales show how the scales could be used in your your performance. Thanks, Jerry


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