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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Och! Modes again!


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/44014

haggis - Posted - 03/28/2016:  09:31:07


Modes mystify. Explanations I have read here deepened the mystery. Once one has learned a tune, either by ear or by the dots then knowing which "mode" it is in does help much given that it will probably be identified  by a key signature. Knowledge of modes is of use when improvising. Even then, if the melody/harmony remains within the key signature then one plays modes whether one knows it or not. Modes , for me, are of use if a tune steps out with the key for a number of bars or if one wishes to play the " wrong" mode to get that outside , jazzy bluesy sound. After all, what use does it serve to know D dorian mode runs D to D through the C scale unless one is not playing in the key of C? Or am I way off the mark?smiley


timmyc - Posted - 03/28/2016:  10:30:02


I would say you seem a bit confused. Nothing personal :-)

You mentioned the example of the D Dorian mode. This mode contains the same notes as the C major scale -- the white keys on a piano. There are a lot of D Dorian tunes. Often you will hear people call them "modal tunes" which is unfortunately nonspecific but pretty common terminology. So once you know a tune is D Dorian, you know which notes to expect possibly to be in the tune. If you are learning the tune by ear, you can start to recognize common types of phrases that come up in Dorian tunes and this can facilitate faster learning. If you are a backer, you know which chords commonly are used with D Dorian tunes so this gives you a starting point. If you are improvising, knowing the mode you are in gives you a good idea of which notes will fit in versus sounding "outside".




pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/28/2016:  12:13:38


seems to me to exaggerate or re-enforce an ambiguous 3rd in the D chord, if  i play D Dorian over a progression of say D///| C///| D///|D///|,  the D chord has F# but i am playing F naturals.( Mostly  the F#'s are missed out of the D chord,or a sus4 chord is used in real life),  it seems that i can play chords from the parent key of C major and end up on the D chord like say, F///| G///| D///|D///|, or Am///| G///| D///| D/// and play D Dorian over it, thats my take on one way of using a mode, it aint major or minor, it's modal, i'm sure there are countless other ways, and i'm probably wrong about the way i'm using them as well...but hey...


mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/28/2016:  12:30:28


My advice is to use the attached chart and stay away from scale equivalents to other keys that seem to be confusing you. This way you stay in the parent key and can eventually see the harmonic function that applies.



timmyc - Posted - 03/28/2016:  13:01:31


Wow that is a confusing chart

buckhenry - Posted - 03/28/2016:  16:27:28


quote:

Originally posted by haggis

what use does it serve to know D dorian mode runs D to D through the C scale unless one is not playing in the key of C? Or am I way off the mark?smiley









Well....if I am understanding the question...?





As you said......''one plays modes whether one knows it or not''...If you are playing the notes based on the 2nd degree (or any other degree) of the major scale to harmonize with a certain chord progression then you are not playing a 'mode', you are playing harmony.





Playing in a mode such as D Dorian means that the tonic note is D and the scale is minor and there are particular chord progressions that belong to this mode/scale. ie, the very common double tonic  Dm/// I C/// I................ 


timfiskwa - Posted - 03/28/2016:  19:07:07


Yay, Double Tonic. It is the easiest concept for me to understand and use with modal tunes, I have already beat that dead horse enough in numerous previous posts. The modal purists will surely disagree, and their view is equally valid. See the can of worms you opened.....

bluesmode - Posted - 03/29/2016:  21:24:08


I've posted this before but I'm gonna do it again.... 3 arpeggio keys that go nicely over any mode.



 



A phrygian = F maj scale = Emin7b5 (Locrian) arp = Bbmaj7 arp = Fmaj7 arp



eg. of Emin7b5 arp = E, G, Bb, D



 



F Lydian = Cmaj scale = Bmin7b5 (Locrian) arp = Fmaj7 arp = Cmaj7 arp



​eg. of Bmin7b5 arp = B, D, F, A



 



each of these three arps all contain notes contained only in the major scale of the applicable mode, but each of the 3 contain some common notes and some different notes.



 



I've given these examples in Lydian & Phyrgian and not the common dorian & mixolydian used in fiddling to re-inforce the fact that each mode creates a unique sound, mood, feel etc.



 



What's my point? Modes are wonderful. Talking about them on V.com, one girl said she loved the modes, and thought they were like different planets in the solar system. I would take it further and say 'like different Galaxy's in the Musical Universe'.



 



Henry is absolutely right in saying you must have the right chord progression(s) to go with any given mode. mmuussiiccaall posted a chart showing all possible 32 chords that would go with any mode. of course there is over lap from mode to mode. I don't have a printer, but I took the time to go down to the library to print some copies.



 



as has been said before, fiddlers don't necessarily even need to know dorian & mixo. All I'm saying is they  can and do work great for many different music styles.



 



Sincerly, bluesMODE. 


haggis - Posted - 03/30/2016:  15:46:39


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

I've posted this before but I'm gonna do it again.... 3 arpeggio keys that go nicely over any mode.




 




A phrygian = F maj scale = Emin7b5 (Locrian) arp = Bbmaj7 arp = Fmaj7 arp




eg. of Emin7b5 arp = E, G, Bb, D




 




F Lydian = Cmaj scale = Bmin7b5 (Locrian) arp = Fmaj7 arp = Cmaj7 arp




​eg. of Bmin7b5 arp = B, D, F, A




 




each of these three arps all contain notes contained only in the major scale of the applicable mode, but each of the 3 contain some common notes and some different notes.




 




I've given these examples in Lydian & Phyrgian and not the common dorian & mixolydian used in fiddling to re-inforce the fact that each mode creates a unique sound, mood, feel etc.




 




What's my point? Modes are wonderful. Talking about them on V.com, one girl said she loved the modes, and thought they were like different planets in the solar system. I would take it further and say 'like different Galaxy's in the Musical Universe'.




 




Henry is absolutely right in saying you must have the right chord progression(s) to go with any given mode. mmuussiiccaall posted a chart showing all possible 32 chords that would go with any mode. of course there is over lap from mode to mode. I don't have a printer, but I took the time to go down to the library to print some copies.




 




as has been said before, fiddlers don't necessarily even need to know dorian & mixo. All I'm saying is they  can and do work great for many different music styles.




 




Sincerly, bluesMODE. 







Bluesmode, I think what you say makes my point  for me. In the instances you cite, in both cases you are simply playing in Fmaj and Cmaj respectively and the arps you mention are 3 of the 7  found in the respective harmonized scales , not the same thing as the modes. In fact you can play any of the 7 modes from the parent scale over any of the arps/chords you mention. I agree, modes are thus in relation to the harmony being played but unless you step outwith the parent scale harmony then , don't you agree that what  you are doing is but playing a major scale from different points in that scale.........in part what you might call "improvising." My other point;  a modal tune will have the key signature of the parent scale. What more do I need to know in order to know which chords to expect? In other words,given the key signature what does knowing which "mode" I am dealing with help in any way? Mind, I could be missing something here?frown


buckhenry - Posted - 03/30/2016:  18:25:18




The notes that belong to 'the' mode will determine the type of chord you will expect. eg,





The Ionian mode chords are very likely to be.....I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIdim



The mixolydian mode maybe....I IIm IIIdim IV Vm VIm VII



The Dorian maybe.......Im IIm III IV Vm VIdim VII



The Aeolian........Im IIdim III IVm Vm VI VII ​ 


bluesmode - Posted - 03/30/2016:  20:49:27


quote:

Originally posted by haggis

 
quote:  





 don't you agree that what  you are doing is but playing a major scale from different points in that scale.........in part what you might call "improvising."







Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. I guess what I'm saying is there is all sorts of things you can do with a major scale. In this case,  each three of these arps have a different spin, the min7b5 being the most 'outside' if you will. If you have these arps memorized and fluent you can throw them in a lot of places. Same goes for fourth patterns or 3rd triad patterns, or different interval patterns, all for the major scale.



 



If I'm doing a Gmaj scale, I can play to G ionian (of course) A dorian, B phyrigian, C lydian, D Mixo, E aeolian, and I can do all the arps and patterns for the given mode. and I don't have to think too hard about it.



 



one of my favorite 'sounds' is if I'm in G aeolian or G min blues (Bbmaj sc.) I do a Bbmaj7 arp over it. Try this if you like: start on open A string ascending



A, Bb, D, F, A -back down F, D, Bb, A, F,  D, Bb, A. the A ends on the G string by this time. This little riff falls to hand very nicely when  starting it on the open A. this riff sounds best if done fairly fast, me thinks



 



Here's one more using a B min7b5 (locrian) arp for A aeolian (Cmaj scale)



4th finger E string B note.... run it right down to the G string.  B, A, F, D, B, A, F, D, B, A.



 



The beauty of this to my mind is this stuff sounds just that much different with each mode, and I've gotten so that I can find the major scale(s) of the mode(s) within seconds of the start of a tune, and then proceed to whatever comes to mind and falls to hand. For the people I accompany it's mostly Ionian, Dorian, Mixo & Aeolian. Sometimes I get to use Phyrgian & Lydian.



 



anyways, not a really big deal I guess, just the way I think it out, but It's served me quite well. 



Edited by - bluesmode on 03/30/2016 20:53:08

bluesmode - Posted - 03/30/2016:  20:55:13


Thanks, Henry, for posting those modal chord progressions.

graeme - Posted - 03/31/2016:  03:37:24


Just tail-ending Henry for a moment -- expect these progressions, in particular, in Doran Mode:



Cadences (endings of sections) Iv -im (so, in C Dorian, F - Cm); VIIb - im (so, again in C Dorian, Bb - Cm); and vm - im (in C: Gm - Cm)



Pedals: IIIb /i - IV/i  (so, in C Dorian, Eb/c - F/c) This technique is widely used in jazz in modal playing.



Suspensions iim/i - Eb/i - IV/i - VIIb/i (so, in C Dorian, Dm/c - Eb/c - Gm/c - Bb/c)



Roots in Thirds im - VIIb - Vm - IIIb (so, in C Dorian, Cm - Bb - Gm - Eb)



All the other modal keys have similar characteristic patterns. Defining patterns, really.



You do not find V7 chords in modal playing (V7 is an "invention" of the major-minor system of harmony). In fact, modal playing is largely using triads, the characteristic few, and the harmony oscillates between these chords in patterns. In major-minor system, the harmony pushes to a goal, and so cycle of 5th progressions, or substitutes of chords in these progressions, characterize the harmony.



A huge number of fiddle tunes are modal (all the Celtic tunes built around the "pipe scale"  , for example).


mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/31/2016:  04:11:19


quote:

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 



The notes that belong to 'the' mode will determine the type of chord you will expect.







And the reverse is the way to tell what mode you are in by breaking down the chords, for example:



sample chord progression   Am  D  G  G  C  G  D  D      Am = a c e     D = d f# a    C = c e g    G = g b d



Put them in alphabetical order beginning with the key note and you get a b c d e f# g which spells out A Dorian.



Even if a person doesn't know that that sequence of notes equals a Dorian scale they could just punch it in the chart above using half steps like so:



a - b c - d - e - f# g -  only Dorian fits that pattern.


pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/31/2016:  08:00:13


IMO some what i call modal fiddle tunes, sound good accompanied by Drones/ diads/ and/or triads constructed from a pentatonic gamut, (pre conceived or perceived), or borrowed from related scales and modes, that don't "necessarily" use  3rds, or 7ths,  and  so leave it to the lead instrument or voice to decide which mode is "current", to create tension release or compliance, and i think the accompanying drone/ diad /triad ..etc, may have an effect on  intonation preferences as well ?


haggis - Posted - 04/02/2016:  16:24:30


quote:

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 



The notes that belong to 'the' mode will determine the type of chord you will expect. eg,






The Ionian mode chords are very likely to be.....I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIdim




The mixolydian mode maybe....I IIm IIIdim IV Vm VIm VII




The Dorian maybe.......Im IIm III IV Vm VIdim VII




The Aeolian........Im IIdim III IVm Vm VI VII ​ 







Fiddlechops,would you agree that the parent scale tells you the chords. E.g. if the D dorian mode is made up only of the notes in C major, running D to D and if the chords are built in 3rds then they can only be the chords found in the key of Cmaj. i.e. Dm , Em , Fmaj Gmaj Am B1/2 dim and Cmaj. The only difference being the position each chord holds in the harmonized mode. Again , I would expect the chords  found in ,e.g. A aeolian to conform to this general principle, that is Am B1/2 dim, Cmaj Dm, Em, Fmaj Gmaj. Modes of the Harmonic minor and Melodic minor would also conform to this pattern albeit the chords produced would be different. Is this roughly what you are saying?



 


buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2016:  17:48:45


quote:

Originally posted by haggis

Is this roughly what you are saying?




 









This is exactly what I am saying.....And the progression of chords will depend on the mode, as stated in the post by Graeme. 





What was your question again....?


bluesmode - Posted - 04/02/2016:  20:36:48


For me, I just hear the modes. If it's a minor, you've got three choices, dorian, aeolian or phyrgian. likely dorian or aeolian so you're one semitone away from being right. aeolian= b6, dorian=M6. If you do get the back up chord progression a bit confused when starting in on a song, it's a quick fix. say you're Amin, a simple choice between a Cmaj scale and a Gmaj scale. on the off chance you find yourself playing to A phrygian....Fmaj scale. to me, a phrygian background would be so distinct from the other 2, you could tell it right off.



What's left? Mixolydian ! .... I don't see how anyone could get confused between Ionian & mixo, but same deal, one semi tone apart...take A again, A Ionian = M7, A mixo = b7 or again, a choice between the Amaj sc. & G maj scale.



No need to worry about Locrian, unless you're doing a minor II-V7-1 except for the exception (which I've posted several times) Locrian (min7b5) arps can go great over any other mode. I used to have a formula to find the applicable Locrian arp for the 'Guitar keys' of G, D, A, E, C, but I don't need the formula any more, it's second nature.





The Church modes are simple, easy peasy. It's amazing to me that one can do so much with something so simple. When I first started getting into them, I thought, this is incredible. How could something this simple be so amazing!



Church modes are easy..... Fiddle bowing is hard.wink smiley



Edited by - bluesmode on 04/02/2016 20:49:18

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/02/2016:  21:55:43


sticking with the notes in the mode to build your chords sounds ok to me as well



like for C mixo for instance, 1:C7 2:Dm7 3:EM7b5 4:FMaj7 5:Gm7 6:Am7 7:BbMaj7



Edited by - pete_fiddle on 04/02/2016 22:04:07

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/02/2016:  22:33:33


sticking with the notes in the mode to build your chords sounds ok to me as well



like for C mixo for instance, 1:C7 2:Dm7 3:EM7b5 4:FMaj7 5:Gm7 6:Am7 7:BbMaj7



or is that just FMaj? indecision



Edit: i suppose not if the chords "function" as they do normally?



ps apologies for edits , it's a bit early in the morning for me



Edited by - pete_fiddle on 04/02/2016 22:42:54

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/03/2016:  01:11:58


"If it's a minor, you've got three choices, dorian, aeolian or phyrgian"



 



​Dave:have you tried out the modes of the Melodic/ Harmonic/Jazz/Neapolitan minors? ...... they're nice too from what i can tell, for Gypsy Jazz ...etc


haggis - Posted - 04/03/2016:  06:25:27


quote:

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 
quote:


Originally posted by haggis

Is this roughly what you are saying?




 


  This is exactly what I am saying.....And the progression of chords will depend on the mode, as stated in the post by Graeme. 





What was your question again....?







Fiddlechops, getting auld so have lost the gist of what I was saying. Best I have a wee cup o' tea and a lie down . I think my point is that I find it easier to know the parent scale from which a mode comes. If I know the harmonized parent scale ,that then points the way to the chords used in the particular mode. Even better,on the fly, when I wish to get an "outside" sound. The mental gymnastics involved in asking yourself " Oh! Eb lydian, is that the 4th or 5th mode and in which key? Oh aye it's the 4th mode in, mmmmm...Bb. Ok all I have to do is run from Eb to Eb through the Bb maj scale. Now which notes are they again? Confusing enough when you have a wee notion of what you are doing , gobbledegook for a novice . I go for the parent scale method. Mind you this approach comes from 50 years of rock and roll!


buckhenry - Posted - 04/03/2016:  15:58:32


If I am about to accompany a song I never rehearsed, usually I am told the key, if not I can work it out. Next thing I am concerned with are the melody and the chord progression, hearing those will tell me the notes to play. After confirming whether the tune is in either major or minor, the style of the tune will determine whether I need to play certain notes in this scale either flat or sharp. Such as a flat 7 for the mixolydian mode, and, or a flat 3 for the dorian mode, etc, etc. I prefer to go directly to the notes, because even the labeling of the modes as required, not to mention naming the the parent key.....for me this would be over thinking, I don't wanna think, I just wanna play.....    


bluesmode - Posted - 04/04/2016:  02:15:36


quote:

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

"If it's a minor, you've got three choices, dorian, aeolian or phyrgian"




 




​Dave:have you tried out the modes of the Melodic/ Harmonic/Jazz/Neapolitan minors? ...... they're nice too from what i can tell, for Gypsy Jazz ...etc







yes, I've played thru most of them and thought about it, and I agree, many of them sound quite intriguing, but to make a long reply shorter....I'm too old to start that stuff, and I couldn't find any guitar players to play Gypsy Jazz after I put a couple of years into figuring it out, and I'd hafta get canned backgrounds in the meantime etc. etc. 



How 'bout you? do you use them in a practical situation?


pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/04/2016:  03:11:11


Yes, iv'e got friends who are into gypsy jazz/swing etc, so i've had to learn em, hence my quest to get up the dusty end of my fingerboard, but its tough going,  they seem to work the same as the normal modes, but not the same as what i call trad modal stuff


bluesmode - Posted - 04/04/2016:  20:37:49


How can they work the same as the Church modes? They are all major scales. Wouldn't you hafta think them out as intervals, or sharp this and flat that? ok, here we go.

Harmonic min A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A
locrian #6 B, C, D, E, F, G#, A, B
ionian #5 C, D, E, F, G#, A, B, C
Dorian#4 D, E, F, G#, A, B, C, D
Phry Dom E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E
Lydian #2 F, G#, A, B, C, D, E, F
Super loc bb7 G#, A, B, C, D, E, F, G#

or is it the melodic min that would be more useful? C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B, C. (I can't find where I've written out the modes for melodic)

anyways, whats the trick in playing these fluently from the G sting to the E string? again, would you hafta think them out in intervals or sharp this and flat that? If there's an easy way to do this, I'd certainly like to know about it! or as they say...is there something I'm missing? Thanks.

bluesmode - Posted - 04/04/2016:  20:54:49


Furthermore laugh  I don't have much trouble going up the finger board for church modes, cuz there is only what? 7 different closed major scale finger patterns over 4 strings? Would you hafta memorize 7 closed finger patterns for harmonic and another 7 closed finger patterns for melodic? This is making me nervous! 


pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/04/2016:  23:53:43


yes normal modes with a "sharp this or a flat that" same closed positions and all, apart from the "sharp this or flat that" , and the chords are built the same, and have the same functions ie: V to Im....etc



i just call em 1234567(th) modes, not their proper names, so Mixolidian b9 for instance would be 5b2, and dorian #4 would be 2#4 ...etc they seem to have similar functions to the chords/arps as well, so i can hang on to a 7#6 (locrian #6, 2nd mode of harmonic minor) for instance, over a 2,5,1min progression,but of course the guitar(s) wouldn't be playing 2 5 1min, they would be doing something Django-istic like, bIIMaj7/ VIIDim/ Imin6, and all i'm doing is wavelling around on my 7#6 mode(but don't tell em)wink



Edited by - pete_fiddle on 04/05/2016 00:44:48

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/05/2016:  18:26:22


Normal modes = modes of the Major scale to me, i dont know what church modes are


bluesmode - Posted - 04/05/2016:  20:55:14


Ok, Thanks for that, I'll chew on it for a while. unfortunately, it's difficult for me to think in 'sharp this and flat that'. maybe some day it will click in for this stuff.
You are fortunate to have a Django-istic guitar player. But it sounds like you keep up. A tip of the hat to you.

Church modes is just the 'official' name for normal modes of the major scale. might have something to do with Monks developing them sometime in the dark ages.

farmerjones - Posted - 04/06/2016:  08:28:39


mandolincafe.com/niles2.html



 


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