Frenchfiddler - Posted - 02/25/2016:  03:52:40

I saw that someone talked about Mel Bay's in a previous topic : i like their books and i recently bought one that i think many of  you know here. It's the " Complete irish fiddle player" by Pete Cooper. As he pointed out, it's not for beginners but since i have a teacher to help me, i felt confident to get it. If some of you worked with this method and want to give me advices, be my guest i will be pleased !!

Otherwise, i also practice a lot with youtube and i think all the tutorials posted by Randy Latimer are very helpful ("rlatimer", "Fiddle Lessons"). He proposes the tunes with different tempos. He uses Jerry Holland's book and Matt Cranitch's one ("learn how to play Irish fiddle"). On youtube, i also check all the tutorials by Duncan Ross Cameron : he's a great fiddle player (actually, he is multi-instrumentalist).  duncancameron.com/about

Sabrina

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/25/2016:  09:44:00

I cannot say enough good things about Peter Cooper's book/CD "The Complete Irish Fiddler".  I had it spiral bound, so you know it is one of my favorite fiddle books.   Here are reasons why I like that book -

1.  Full notation.  All the ornamentation, slurs, rolls, etc.

2.  All tunes are commonly played.  No obscure tunes like "The Pig That Ran Away With a Chicken".

3.  Complete detailed instructions on how to play everything.

4.  Entertaining historical information about Irish fiddling and Irish fiddlers.

5.  All tunes are on the CD.  And, they are played like the notation.

6.  All the text is big and easy to read.

7.  Important things are clearly identified.

I did one thing that helps.  I copied the page with the alphabetical list of tunes.  It is at the end of the book.  Then, beside each book, I wrote the type of tune (Hornpipe, Reel, Double Jig, etc.).  

I have Cranitchs material and other Irish material.   I think Cooper's provides an informative and entertaining introduction to Irish fiddling.  Then I taped that page to the back of the cover.  It makes finding a specific tune easier.  And if I want to know what type tune something is, I can also easily do that.  Oh, one more thing.  Have the book spiral bound.  That way it won't fall apart with heavy use and is easier to work with.  I do that will books I use on a regular basis.

You won't regret buying Cooper's book.  Your instructor will probably learn a few things from that book.

Edited by - Dick Hauser on 02/25/2016 09:46:24

graeme - Posted - 02/26/2016:  02:21:15

Peter Cooper's book is an excellent guide to help people learn Irish fiddling. I spent many months on it, and still I return to for a "top up"  of ideas and tunes.

I made a lot of notes and many pratice exercises for myself from this book.

Allow yourself a year or two to wander through the book and put your skills onto a solid footing.

Christine Martin's book, Traditional Scottish Fiddling: A Player's Guide ... is another excellent book that gives much first grade instruction and repertoire for Celtic fiddling.  

Get them both, I suggest.

Frenchfiddler - Posted - 02/26/2016:  03:35:04

Thanks to both of you for those advices : i know that the Peter Cooper's book is a strong resource in the world of fiddle. I know that it will take time to fully understand all his meanings, especially the ornaments.

Dick, thanks for the "spiral bound", it's a good idea ! Same for writing the type of each tune.

Graeme, i didn't know the Christine Martin's book, thanks : one question about what you said on the Peter Cooper's. What kind of exercises and notes did you make from it ? You see, my principal issue is that i need my teacher to go further on things (i guess it is normal  since i only have two years of practicing the violin). How did you do to make your own material from this book ?

Sabrina

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/26/2016:  08:32:24

Sabrina - I found that playing the tunes a lot caused me to do things without thinking, especially ornamentation.  I have seen some fiddlers whose specialty is Irish music use these techniques when playing other types of music.  So I am not the only fiddler this happens to.  No problem though.

One other thing.  I bought Mark Stone's bodhran rhythm CD on the CDBaby website.  If I am playing Irish music, and not playing with a recording, I am playing along with this CD.  I use software that lets me change speed without changing pitch.  I use "The Amazing Slow Downer".  There is other software as well, and some is free.   That CD did a lot to help me get the "feel" for each type of Irish tune.

You like Natalie and Donnell - right ?  Go to Youtube and browse "Calvin Vollrath Spring Fling".  A group of the best Canadian fiddlers play on that video.  You can watch Natalie and Donnell play.  He even dances.  He appears to be a very extroverted and funny guy.  When warming up, I play along with that video.  All those tunes are part of my playing repertoire.

graeme - Posted - 02/26/2016:  14:31:07

Some of the exercises centre upon taking the bowing patterns, one at a time, and using these across arpeggios (a much greater variety than those in the Cooper book), paying particular attention to bringing out the melodic lines and ghosting the remaining arpeggio notes, working on the "feel" of the pattern along scales (stepwise but also played in a wide range of patterns), and moving the bowing patterns between the commonly used chord progressions.

So, apply the pattern to inversions of, say, tonic to subdominant chord, dominant to tonic, tonic major to tonic minor, and just open a fakebook, like Fiddler's Fakebook, and play the chords using your bowing patterns.

Make sure you work across the strings, for many exercises like this ignore dipping long and strong into the 4th string, and this strong, deeper register can be played quite sloppily if it doesn't get attention.

You can also take Cooper's bowing patterns (and pay particular attention to all the different ways he discusses placing accents) to many of the etudes in Wohlfahrt Op 45 (a very good companion for fiddlers who want a strategic approach to technique, rather than just "pick up stuff" by copying others, CDs, etc).

Seek to use only about 5 cm of bow at most, probably in the third nearest the tip, bowing with flat hair and on the side, relaxing the wrist while having a firm enough hold on the bow that you can instantly punch in the accents, working the pinky, the thumb, the index finger, and use the third finger for those passages of round sound and more volume, as you need to.

Much more to say about how to bring Cooper's insights into your  firm, secure, fiddle foundation technique.

Frenchfiddler - Posted - 02/27/2016:  01:21:40

Thanks for your recommendations and advices : so much to learn....I know i have to be patient but it's hard because i'd like to play like a pro' ...like right know !!!! I understand that both of you have a lot of experience that allow you to really take full advantage of your material resources. It is fantastic to be able to do that. So much possibilities for you....

Yes, i know what you mean Dick : i already have automatism regarding to ornamentations (i listen to so much fiddling that it's starting to come naturally when i see a sheet music) but i have to be careful and to play slowly otherwise i lose the rhythm of the tune. But my instructor said that i already have a strong left hand in first position : i have to do mostly efforts with the bow though.

I also use "Amazing slow downer" to play along : that's helping me a lot.

Ah !!  Natalie and Donnell : i could talk hours and hours about them. Thanks for the video. What i truly  love about them, it's their generosity with the public, their showing respect whatever the fiddlers they have in front of them and they're playing with. And THAT said a lot about their personalities when you see their level of playing..... Really, i can't say enough about them : professional fiddling but so down to earth people. I am amazed.

Sabrina

DeamhanFola - Posted - 02/27/2016:  08:13:31

If you already have a background in fiddle basics and some familiarity with Irish fiddle, then Paul McNevin's Complete Guide to Learning Irish Fiddle book/CD combination from Walton's is very good. Great tune selections, and all of the tunes and drills in the book are on the CD, played at a reasonable tempo (with the exception of a small 'library' of tunes in the appendix). 

Another resource that I would suggest is Kevin Burke's videos, particularly the second DVD in the Learn to Play Irish Fiddle series. This one covers Irish ornamentation such as rolls and bowed trebles, a vital part of Irish trad that is often difficult for beginners (or even experienced players coming from other genres) to suss. I've heard some newcomers say that Burke doesn't provide enough context, but if you are already listening to trad, the video should be most helpful.

The Burke video below is from a different series, but it will give you a taste of the ornamentation instruction. It's really important to get instruction from people who are immersed in the tradition: the example of Irish trebles (bowed triplets) is one example. Someone with classical training playing triplets from a written score would not get the sound right, as the actual rhythm/timing of the three notes is not equal as it is often written. Immersion in the tradition will help a player listen better, know the conventions and techniques of the genre, and translate a written score better.

Edited by - DeamhanFola on 02/27/2016 08:20:25

Frenchfiddler - Posted - 02/28/2016:  01:00:26

Thanks DeamhanFola, yes i have the basics in Irish fiddle and familiarity because i listen to a lot of Irish stuffs on a daily basis. I start to be pretty good on some stuffs like : rolls, cut and slides principally. My biggest issue right know is my bow : i have difficulties with my right arm and i'm most at ease with my left hand.

Thanks for your advices : i like Kevin Burke's videos and i think that Fiddlevideo.com is very good in general. I didn't know the DVD series "Play Irish fiddle series" : I'm going to take a look right know thanks.

You are totally right about the listening : that's what i read every where. Immersion in the fiddle style will help better than anything else. it's all about listening again and again to GET what truly fiddle is.  I've seen people with classical training trying to play fiddle and....yes...let's just say that they don't get it. I know some of violinists where i live that want to play fiddle know but they have classical influences and backgrounds from their childhood and they say that it's really complicated for them to learn the fiddle today because they can't escape from their sheets,  that's how they learn violin : with sheets and following exactly the theory. However, they play violin for a very long time...but they can't play the fiddle : that's how it is.

As for me, it's different : i need my sheets because i started to play only 2 years ago and i don't have "the ear" right know. But i hope that in the future i will achieve that : playing by ear and learning a fiddle tune by following a fiddler by listening him. it will take time of course...

Sabrina

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/28/2016:  06:57:29

About classical violinists wanting to use notation.  My wife is a pianist who has that problem.  I think the problem musicians in this position have is the fact they don't want to make mistakes.  Learning fiddle involves quite a bit of trial and error playing.   People with violin training have developed bow control and playing techniques, but they can't make the mental adjustment.  I am not saying they are ready to play every style of fiddle, but the foundation for playing is there.  They should spend a lot of time listening before they start playing.

If I were a violinist who wanted to play fiddle tunes, I would listen to fiddle music and decide which type of music I want to play.  Then, I would find a fiddler who plays that type of music and has musical training, and arrange for lessons from that person.  Working with someone with musical training would probably improve communications between student and instructor

graeme - Posted - 02/28/2016:  15:29:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

About classical violinists wanting to use notation.  My wife is a pianist who has that problem.  I think the problem musicians in this position have is the fact they don't want to make mistakes.  Learning fiddle involves quite a bit of trial and error playing.   People with violin training have developed bow control and playing techniques, but they can't make the mental adjustment.  I am not saying they are ready to play every style of fiddle, but the foundation for playing is there.  They should spend a lot of time listening before they start playing.

If I were a violinist who wanted to play fiddle tunes, I would listen to fiddle music and decide which type of music I want to play.  Then, I would find a fiddler who plays that type of music and has musical training, and arrange for lessons from that person.  Working with someone with musical training would probably improve communications between student and instructor

---

Dick, no doubt there is a threshold to cross for the violinist who wants to play fiddle tunes in an authentic way. It peeves me that all violinists are not introduced to some fiddling, as part of their training. Very few violinists are going to be superstar soloists. So, it is a part of "vocational learning", some fiddle craft, in among their violin studies.  I think.

But this threshold is not the great mountain that many fiddlers think it is. I dare to suggest that most violinists who want to succeed in fiddling, and who build in some of the daily listening, duet playing, ornament and bow learning appropriate to fiddling in the styles of their choice, will be very listenable in a few months.

I know one or two pianists who cannot play jazz.  I know trumpet players who can't play big band music well. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of "straight" musicians who can't swing or rock. But, those who want to, and who do a bit of work, cross over in short order. Musical people are musical people. (And work is work -- just do it.)

I strongly resist the notion widespread among some fiddle communities that classically trained violinists (who happen to have elite reading skills amongst their skills) can't play or even learn to play fiddle music.

fujers - Posted - 02/28/2016:  21:32:28

I don't know, There is a few that can play both. Mark O'Conner, Stuart Duncan, Aubrey Hannie. All these people can read and play some great fiddling I would say.

Just because you can't read does not make you a bad fiddler. It just means that you can't read. Did you think that Vasser..or Bobby Hicks or Chubby Wise and a whole bunch of ole country boys could read...no they didn't..they just played. I do the same thing. I just play.

You know, just because you have a piece of paper in your hand and you can read what it says does not mean you are a fiddle player. Fiddle playing comes from the heart and soul and there ain't no piece of paper going to show that...not even classical. Just my two cents worth. Jerry 

Frenchfiddler - Posted - 02/29/2016:  03:58:35

Absolutely, "fiddle playing come from the heart" : i agree. Actually, i think that all the playing comes from the heart, no matter the instrument or the style.

About the classical training : i don't know how it works in the USA but, here, in France (and i would say in Europe in general), you have no idea how strong the classical influences are. When you get a position in a conservatory, like i did 2 months ago, you realize that all the teachers are classical trained. Classical is unavoidable if you want to be professional someday and that's what they teach to kids first.  My teacher understood immediately my passion for the fiddle (well, it will be hard to not to anyway since i'm totally crazy with it !), but the first thing he told me is that it would be great if i'll play others styles (and i add he told me that starting with the fiddle was a mistake) . 

So the truth is that the fiddle is not  fully respected here : it is a "traditional" style of music. It doesn't  matter how exceptional  you are in playing the fiddle in France, it's not classical violin. Of course, we have fiddle sessions, even slow sessions here and other little things....but few people get into.  (And if you look at the French violin forums, they say it all : fiddle is one topic among others, and most of the time, the topic has been inactive for a while....).

And THAT is today my biggest issue : since i started violin 2 years ago, no teacher will never turn me into   a soloist one day. It's done for me. And that's what i try to explain around me : to let me learn, let me put myself into the style that I want to develop. Because, the rest of my life will not be enough to learn all i have to learn with the fiddle : and the fiddle is the reason i started to play the violin in the first place.  Plus, even if i could manage to be a wonderful classical violinist someday, i won't be able to do anything with it  : no teaching, no professional orchestras...nothing. Such an elitism's world.

This discussion reminds me a French violinist , Fiona Monbet : she's been Didier Lockwood's student for years (amazing Jazz violinist). He says that, today, she's probably the best female jazz violinist in the world (this compliment from him says a lot). But if you dare to say that to her in an interview.... : she answers that she's not a jazz violinist but Lockwood is. She likes to repeat that she plays others styles, which she does but, in my modest opinion, she doesn't succeed like she does for the jazz.. And now, she is in the Conservatory of Paris learning classical violin.... This woman is unbelievable when she's playing jazz and does improvisation : i mean that's HER thing. But she refuses to be called jazz violinist.

So, yes i think that each violinist has "the foundation" like Dick said to play whatever he wants, if that's  his motivation. But i think that, at some point, every musician, no matter the instrument, needs to make a choice : you can't be good at everything you do in life. And maybe it's particularly accurate for an instrument. A musician will have to choose what he wants to develop the most and go into it, work hard to succeed.

(I don't know if I'm fully understandable when i express myself  : i do my best but since English in not my maternal language,  feel free to  let me know when my words and my ideas are not clear).

Sabrina

graeme - Posted - 03/02/2016:  02:37:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

I don't know, There is a few that can play both. Mark O'Conner, Stuart Duncan, Aubrey Hannie. All these people can read and play some great fiddling I would say.

Just because you can't read does not make you a bad fiddler. It just means that you can't read. Did you think that Vasser..or Bobby Hicks or Chubby Wise and a whole bunch of ole country boys could read...no they didn't..they just played. I do the same thing. I just play.

You know, just because you have a piece of paper in your hand and you can read what it says does not mean you are a fiddle player. Fiddle playing comes from the heart and soul and there ain't no piece of paper going to show that...not even classical. Just my two cents worth. Jerry 

 

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Jerry, mate, fella, hey bloke, this is a terrible post.

You left about 2 million fiddlers off your list of people who can read well and fiddle well. Do you need me to name them for you, or will you work your way through the fiddle clubs around the world? Bloke!!!

"Just because you can't read does not make you a bad fiddler".  Where did you pull this from? Who said it did make you a bad fiddler if you can't read? (And just because you play the fiddle "by ear", by copying as best you can, other fiddlers, doesn't make you a good fiddler. Mate!!!)

You would be amazed, just as the musicologists who went into the field in the 30s and 40s and found sheet music sitting on racks of pump organs and pianos in the backwoods, just how many of those old timers actually could read.  They documented this (the musicologists, not the banjo players, the fiddlers, etc). A lot of folk read slowly, and they couldn't "sight read" well, and so they hid their reading capacity.  But they knew something of the dots, the vast majority of them. If we are to believe the researchers who visited them. (But you can chjeck this out at the Smithsonian, etc".

"Fiddle playing comes from the heart and soul ... " 

Well, Jerry, that's nice, and I think motherhood is a good thing, too.

Your audio contributions to this forum show that you play well.  Good, rejoice in that, and we applaud you, sincerely, for your playing. Well done.

It is important in this world to know yourself, and to become content with who you are.

mackeagan - Posted - 03/10/2016:  18:29:24

I learned to read after playing "by ear" for years, and it actually made a huge improvement on my playing. Plus, the combination of "ear" and reading enables me to learn Irish and Scottish tunes fairly quickly. Back to the Original Poster, the Mel Bay/Pete Cooper book is a good one to have, as it has good selection of tunes that most session players know. But do yourself a favor and visit thesession.org and read all their posts on "overplayed tunes" and session etiquette before jumping in at your local session. Of course, if there isn't one, you will want to start one and these tunes will get you started.

graeme - Posted - 03/11/2016:  14:57:14

Tommy, there is a nice balance of techniques: one third reading, one third aural (by "ear"), and one third improvising.

Why can't people accept that all three are important skills, none better than the other, all "required"?

Mojohand40 - Posted - 08/03/2016:  10:41:11

I'll second everything Dick Hauser said. 

Pete Cooper's book is the one book (out of many I have bought over the years) that I probably refer to and treasure the most.

 I really, really wish he'd do a similar book for American Old Time.  I have his "American Old Time Fiddle Tunes: 98 Traditional Pieces for Violin" and it is an excellent tune book, and the recordings are really, really good.  He can definitely play American Old Time very authentically, IMO.  But this book doesn't go into bowing and such as much as the Irish book.  It's just straight up notation.

Anyway, no..Complete Irish Fiddle Player is not an absolute beginners book, even though it was one of the first books I started with (struggled painfully with at first!!) but it is approachable for beginner/intermediates. 

I pretty much only play Old Time, but I still think most of my bowing etc. came from learning tunes as written/played/bowed in Cooper's Irish book. It crosses over to other fiddling styles, IMO.

 I still sometimes dig it out fiddle along with the recordings in it.   I'm surprised at how many of the tunes I can pull from memory.  I have been using that book for about 5 years and STILL haven't worked all the way through it BTW, but...I know the first half pretty much by heart lol.

dsreiner - Posted - 08/03/2016:  16:23:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mojohand40

 

I'll second everything Dick Hauser said. 

Pete Cooper's book is the one book (out of many I have bought over the years) that I probably refer to and treasure the most.

 I really, really wish he'd do a similar book for American Old Time.  I have his "American Old Time Fiddle Tunes: 98 Traditional Pieces for Violin" and it is an excellent tune book, and the recordings are really, really good.  He can definitely play American Old Time very authentically, IMO.  But this book doesn't go into bowing and such as much as the Irish book.  It's just straight up notation.

Anyway, no..Complete Irish Fiddle Player is not an absolute beginners book, even though it was one of the first books I started with (struggled painfully with at first!!) but it is approachable for beginner/intermediates. 

I pretty much only play Old Time, but I still think most of my bowing etc. came from learning tunes as written/played/bowed in Cooper's Irish book. It crosses over to other fiddling styles, IMO.

 I still sometimes dig it out fiddle along with the recordings in it.   I'm surprised at how many of the tunes I can pull from memory.  I have been using that book for about 5 years and STILL haven't worked all the way through it BTW, but...I know the first half pretty much by heart lol.

 

---

Yes, Pete Cooper is a fine writer and player.  As I recall, I introduced him a long time ago to Mel Bay, who is also my publisher.

Mojohand40, take a look a Oldtime Fiddling Across America, which I co-wrote with Pete Anick.  A lot of bowing material, with tunes and bowings across multiple OT regional styles.

Thanks,

Dave

Addie - Posted - 08/03/2016:  16:34:03

I can't say enough good things about Christine Martin's Traditional Scottish Fiddling book.  It covers tune types, ornaments, and the regional styles.  Lots of tunes, and a CD of examples from many good trad players.  It is NOT a tutor, though.  Bruce MacGregor and Fiona Cuthill have good tutorials on YouTube, as does Ronnie Gibson (a FH member).  IMHO Bruce over-does the ornamentation, to the point that he starts sounding Irish, but that's what's popular in Scotland right now.

fujers - Posted - 08/05/2016:  20:26:30

Well let me tell you Graeme or what ever your name is.

"Jerry, mate, fella, hey bloke, this is a terrible post.

You left about 2 million fiddlers off your list of people who can read well and fiddle well. Do you need me to name them for you, or will you work your way through the fiddle clubs around the world? Bloke!!! "

Answer

I don't go to fiddle clubs...don't need to. The 2 million people you referenced...Now, how am I post theres names..It would take a bunch of Sundays to do this. I know there are a lot of people that do this. Bloke

And before we get started on this argument. I have never once heard you play. You talk a big game....can you prove what you say...prove it once...go ahead the floor is open.

You said..."Just because you can't read does not make you a bad fiddler".  Where did you pull this from? Who said it did make you a bad fiddler if you can't read? (And just because you play the fiddle "by ear", by copying as best you can, other fiddlers, doesn't make you a good fiddler. Mate!!!)

Answer:

Thats true I don't read and doesn't it make me bad fiddler. Just let me tell you something,,,,most fiddler's don't read a lick. Playing from there heart and soul is how I play....now it my not be your choice...but thats how I play. As I remember if it were not for me listening to the way other fiddlers play I wouldn't be to where I am now.

So using the ear has gotting me to a lot of paces and the place I am now on. So Again I say...You have never contributed a thing to this site. As far as I'm concerned you just another talking head that pretends to know more than what he does know.

Now let me ask you something. You seem to know a lot about modes.  I 'll bet you are reading this from a book,,,right.

There ain't no way a simple fiddler knows that much....hell I don't know that much and I've been playing a long time.

Now, Tell the truth. Do you understand what you talk about or are just reading from a book.

The truth will come out once you place something for us the listen to.

I glad you like my playing and I mean you no harm. Listen, You can be anything you want to...just be honest. of your capability.  

Sir/Mamm. You did not have to post this. If you have concerns or questions  you could have private emailed me and would have tried to answer you question..  Hey, we are all in the same boat. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 08/06/2016:  23:38:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by graeme

 

Tommy, there is a nice balance of techniques: one third reading, one third aural (by "ear"), and one third improvising.

Why can't people accept that all three are important skills, none better than the other, all "required"?

---

I think saying "required" is going too far. Yesterday out busking there was a violin duet ahead of me, sight reading some classical. The 1st violin doing stuff far beyond me. On the other hand, I'm guessing she couldn't solo her way thru 3 rounds of a 12 bar. I'm glad I never learned to sight read...a LOT of time and money learning to play stuff I don't want to play. I would have been much further ahead if I could have found someone to teach me a blues scale and the church modes right off.

This has been debated to exhaustion. Take away sheet music from a classical player and they can't play. put sheet music in front of someone who can't read...they can't play. I submit, that for a lot of people "one third reading, one third aural, one third improvising"  would take more than one lifetime. Yes, there are people who do it...nice work if you can get it, but to say it's 'required'...I don't think so.  

I accept that all three are important skills, contingent  on what sort of music you want to play. but I do not accept that everyone wants or needs to go that route.

bluesmode - Posted - 08/07/2016:  00:50:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by graeme

 

Tommy, there is a nice balance of techniques: one third reading, one third aural (by "ear"), and one third improvising.

Why can't people accept that all three are important skills, none better than the other, all "required"?

---

 >>Take away sheet music from a classical player and they can't play<<

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I retract this statement. It's  over generalized.

bluesmode - Posted - 08/07/2016:  13:52:24

...not quite ready to let this go....busking again today, a guy comes up, gives me $2 tells me he's making a video montage, as there are a lot of talented buskers around. I say sure, I wonder what I should play. He says how 'bout something Rocky. I say well, I can play you a bit of hard edged blues, he says yeah that would be great, so I do some of my standard minor blues stuff in A & E. He's quite impressed and sez this will be great for the montage, I've never heard a violin played like that before. A statement I've heard more than once over the years.

My point? I'm absolutely certain that If I'd gotten bogged down with site reading, I wouldn't be playing the way I do today.

So there you have it graeme old bean, old chap. pip pip, eh wot ! I rather resent being told what is or is not required. required by whom? the Music Police? So...Bob's yer Uncle.