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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: bebop anyone?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/43522

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bluesmode - Posted - 01/29/2016:  21:18:41


I got this lesson from Graeme, who has been working on a tutorial by Tim Kliphuis. I don't think he would mind if I yak about it, and if he sees it, he may want to add to it.



I've played thru bebop scales before, but couldn't really 'hear' them until this exercise made it sink in.



bebop scales are 8 note scales, and if played in 1/8 notes, the notes fall metrically on the chord tones.



the exercise is up the Dom7 bebop scale and back down in the Major bebop scale (two octaves over G7 chord)



Ascending Dom7 bebop sc: G, A, B, C, D, E, F, F#



Descending Major bebop sc: G, F#, E, Eb, D, C, B, A, (G)



You can hear the mixolydian ascending, and the bluesy flavor descending. 



I also tried this with the 8 note diminished scale and seems to work the same way.



For me this seems to work well for a blues I-IV-V. key of G7 I've been going up on the 1 and down on the 4, seems very nice, and because of the 8 note scale, you could do patterns and scale fragments continuously and seamlessly until your arms fall off.



I'm very excited about it..... something new for me, and sounds great.



PS: Swing them if you want to.


Edited by - bluesmode on 01/29/2016 21:34:50

fujers - Posted - 01/29/2016:  21:39:47


I think this is very helpful for a number of reasons. But none I can speak of right not now. I an tiered and going to bed.

bluesmode - Posted - 01/30/2016:  15:32:29


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 




For me this seems to work well for a blues I-IV-V. key of G7 I've been going up on the 1 and down on the 4, seems very nice.







Woops! I got this backwards. I'm using the GMaj bebop scale over the 1 chord, and the Gdom7 bebop scale over the IV chord.

buckhenry - Posted - 01/31/2016:  17:16:23


Is there a rule to how one plays these notes, such as play only certain notes descending and only the others ascending....





Seems to me a mixture of the mixolydian and ionian ascending



And the ionian with a b9......descending.





Can one skip notes rather than play the chromatics..?

fujers - Posted - 01/31/2016:  19:08:53


Dave, There's something I like about you. Could be because we speak the same language I don't know. I am going to give one of my licks. Now, I just made this up but it is kind of the way I play. Now the run I'm going to give you might sound a little strange at first but they all fall in place at the end. These are western/jazz licks and I will put this in the same way you would put then in..



Lick in G: Playing western/jazz style of playing you are going to using a lot of you fingers and sometimes not depends on what chord you are playing in. I use a lot of 3 or 4 notes to the bow or I will sung 8th notes and sometimes I use 16th notes just depends on what song and whatever I fill like playing. I will try to make this simple and to play and not go into 3rd or 4th position. Here we go



Now this lick I use a single bow to a note but you can use it in anyway you want too but try a single note to the bow. G.A# D F E D E F G A C D Bb. Ending on the Bb shows interest and now I'm ready to play other interesting notes that go into the 4. Patterns like these can be be played in the first position and you don't ever have to leave the first position. Sometimes you have to leave the first position to grab another note...just depends on how fancy you want to be. Try this like and I think you will like it if you don't talk to Henry...hehehe. Jerry



  


Edited by - fujers on 01/31/2016 19:11:39

bluesmode - Posted - 01/31/2016:  22:00:30


Hi Henry: RE: mixture of mixo and Ionian etc. Yes, that sounds right to me. lately I've been practicing both scales ascending & descending, just so I can do them that way. It seems to me that if I do the major bebop over the 1 and the dom bebop over the 4...sounds the best that way, and doesn't matter that much if I'm ascending or descending, as long as I stay on the maj bop for the 1 & the dom bop for the 4. Perhaps I'm not far enough into it to discern the ascending/descending thing, and you would know more about that than me.



as for the 5 chord, going down from the 5 to 4 to 1. I think maj bop to dom bop back to maj bop respectively, works.



according to the 'teaching' these 8 note scales are set up to fall on the chord tones, and skipping some chromatics would defeat that purpose. maybe turn them into different scale types, I dunno. That may not be a bad thing, but I'm sticking to them as shown. It's tricky enough sorting out the subtle differences between them as it is.



 



Hi Jerry: Yes, I like that riff, very pretty and melodic. seems to be divided into 2 sections.... G, A#, D, F, E, D, E, F - G, A, C, D, Bb. This seems to me like the II - V7 of a II-V7-I progression... Gmin7 to C7 and could resolve to the Fmaj7 for the  one.  anyways, nice riff!   

bluesmode - Posted - 02/02/2016:  13:47:18


@fujers: I thought we might exchange riffs. Here's a real nice one I got from Matt Glaser.



 



Key of D, but starts on the M3, 5, b7, 9, #11, 13  resolve on A



So... F#, A, C, E, Ab, B, A.



the #11 AND 13th take it right up there to the sweet spot.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 02/02/2016:  14:49:16


Is there a video of these in action?

bluesmode - Posted - 02/02/2016:  21:48:02


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 
quote:


Originally posted by bluesmode


For me this seems to work well for a blues I-IV-V. key of G7 I've been going up on the 1 and down on the 4, seems very nice.





Woops! I got this backwards. I'm using the GMaj bebop scale over the 1 chord, and the Gdom7 bebop scale over the IV chord.







@fiddlinsteudel: I can't link you to it but here's the address: christianhowes.com/member-home/bebop/  



3 free lessons.... Christian demos the G dom7 bop sc. I think the Maj bop scale (which is listed above) is equally important. According to Graeme, Tim Kliphuis has his students  go up the Dom 7 and down the Maj bop sc.



I was able to get thru without putting in my email address, I just clicked on the box that said 'your email address here'  then without entering my email, I clicked on the 'register now' it sent me to a page that said 'there has been an error in your information...' so I clicked on the 'go back arrow' and then for some reason the lessons were clear to go. I've done this twice and it  worked the second time (I'm having trouble with my email)



Anyways, I'm working these two scales into dom7 blues, rather than jazz, coz blues is what I do best.



Thanks for your interest. Let me know what you think of Christian Howes if you like.

Swing - Posted - 02/03/2016:  09:35:39


This is great stuff, I hope that you keep it going.. the scale as an exercise really opens up many possibilities...



Play Happy



Swing



 

fujers - Posted - 02/04/2016:  21:03:12


Dave, You are explaining a lot of things but can you play these things...it doesn't matter whether you can play them or nor not.



Just by you posting these things will help other fiddlers to understand how scales work. Scales are note white and black they mean more.



Scales are you life line and you should know how to use them. So Dave keep on posting your scales, I get something from your every post.



We are all hear to learn ain't we. We'll Dave is trying to help us...If it were me....I'd listen. Jerry 



  

bluesmode - Posted - 02/04/2016:  22:32:16


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

Dave, You are explaining a lot of things but can you play these things... 




  







I'm just starting into the bebop stuff, but everything else I've posted, I can play, and play pretty durn good, if I do say so myself.



I've been playing for 35 years now. I would hope I could play fairly well in all that time..... since you asked.....

bluesmode - Posted - 02/04/2016:  23:46:30


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

 
quote:


Originally posted by fujers

Dave, You are explaining a lot of things but can you play these things... 




  








I'm just starting into the bebop stuff, but everything else I've posted, I can play, and play pretty durn good, if I do say so myself.




I've been playing for 35 years now. I would hope I could play fairly well in all that time..... since you asked.....




 



by the way, did you try that riff I gave you in exchange for the one you gave me. It was that one in D, starting on the major 3, 5, b7, 9 ,#11, 13, resolve on A..... F#, A, C, E, Ab, B, A.   or, can you not play it? wink







 

fujers - Posted - 02/05/2016:  07:44:51


Oh I can play it. alright. since you asked. I like this stuff keep it up

fujers - Posted - 02/05/2016:  09:17:23


The riff, No I haven't trayed it yet. I'll try later on this evening..looks interesting. Hey, Do you play in 3rd position and do you play double stops. If you do I have some licks that will fit right in with your bebop. But you must be able to play in 3rd and do double stops. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/06/2016:  14:50:09


.....Jerry, I'm comfortable to up around the 6th position, but don't do many double stops up there, a few double stop scale fragments to accompany Folk. I prefer double stops in the first position.

My plate is pretty full right now with working on about 5 different scale types, but send that info along if you like. Can't guarantee I'll get that far into it. licks that will fit in with bebop sounds interesting, right now it's about all I can handle to memorize both the Dom7 & Major bebop scales up & down in 5 keys. But if I see something that I think I could use, I may be able to write it down for later.

Thanks, Dave.

Petimar - Posted - 07/02/2016:  17:04:59


The purpose of Bebop scales is to make the note on the beat a note ot the chord. this assumes all 1/8th notes in 4/4 or 3/4 time.



If I play the notes of a G7 bebop scale, every other note is a note of the G7 chord: G A B C D E F F# G

(The G7 chord being G B D F)



You can find these type of scales with many chords found in 40's and 50's era Jazz. My book Bebop Scales for Mandolin and Violin has many examples. it is a free download at either of my web sites.



 



PetimarPress.com



Jazz-Mandolin.com



 





 


Edited by - Petimar on 07/02/2016 17:07:07

fujers - Posted - 07/02/2016:  18:31:05


I use these type of scales in the things that I play although a little different that all come  to the same thing.



Scales are scales till you learn how to use them. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 07/02/2016:  20:11:08


quote:

Originally posted by Petimar

 

>>The purpose of Bebop scales is to make the note on the beat a note ot the chord.<<




 






 







@Petimar: this is precisely what attracted me to these scales in the first place... the timing of the 8 note scale. Alas, I have not pursued them, as I found there wasn't enough practical application with the people I jam with. (at least I couldn't find enough application) BUT, I'm glad I put enough time into them to understand your statement. Very cool how that works, yes? ...make the note an the beat a note of the chord.



..... makes me wonder if the same kinda thing would also work with a diminished scale, which is also 8 notes!?

bluesmode - Posted - 07/02/2016:  20:46:34


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

Scales are scales till you learn how to use them. Jerry







I agree. the first thing I do after learning a scale is to find a practical application for them, or in your words "Learn how to use them". Some of the scales I like are:



half-diminished(locrian), diminished whole tone(altered scale) for a minor II V7 I in C minor would be D half-dim D Eb F G Ab Bb C D, to G7+9> G Ab Bb B C# D# F G, resolve to Cmin. Jamey Aebersold says: The diminished/whole-tone scale for the V7 produces much tension and beauty. I totally agree with him.



There are scales that I don't have much application for, like the above mentioned bebop scales. but I still appreciate them. 



 

fujers - Posted - 07/07/2016:  08:49:00


Want some licks I made up. These licks work wonderful over bebop or western swing.


Edited by - fujers on 07/07/2016 08:49:25

bluesmode - Posted - 10/26/2016:  20:31:59


for the past couple of days I've been re-visiting the Major & Dom7 bebop scales, and I just put an hour into the minor bebop scale, which I've never got into before. Seems to work well over the IV chord in a 12 bar. Apparently it's derived from Dorian, and goes....



1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, M7



I like these 8 note scales (as previously mentioned I believe) because 8 notes fall on beat with the chord tones.

fujers - Posted - 10/26/2016:  21:45:28


Try this in the key of G. You start hitting a Bb slide to B , C, C# D..back to B A Trill to G to E. This lick is a western swing lick. I have more in Bebop too.



Now it's just me and please excuse me if I say something that doesn't fit this discussion.



I play I little bit of what you talk because I play western swing and just a little bit of bebop..I think that bebop is closely associated with swing music.  



I can associate myself with what you talk and I like it. But what you talk about I already know



Lets pick it up a little bit...lets talk about licks that we can all use...like Charlie Parker...Coltrane..Now that would be nice. Now I read best by the number system I don't really read music...but I can if need be. Lets play some of that stuff. I know I'm probably asking a lot but thats kind of what I like to play. Just asking. Jerry  

buckhenry - Posted - 10/26/2016:  22:39:01


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 




Lets pick it up a little bit...lets talk about licks that we can all use...like Charlie Parker...Coltrane..Now that would be nice. Now I read best by the number system I don't really read music...but I can if need be. Lets play some of that stuff. I know I'm probably asking a lot but thats kind of what I like to play. Just asking. Jerry  









Good idea, numbers is ok with me, but lets put it in print because i aint got the time to listen over and over.....................

fujers - Posted - 10/27/2016:  15:45:50


Henry. Good idea and I don't have the time or energy to do the same. Must be away. Offer and out. Jerome

Petimar - Posted - 11/01/2016:  18:21:46


Here are 4 bebop licks. Played on mandolin here, but they work for fiddle too.

jazz-mandolin.com/instruction%...deos.html

bluesmode - Posted - 11/06/2016:  08:57:12


I'd like to hear these 4 bebop licks, but they're not linked. I'm on you tube now and I've put a couple of vids up, but they're not fit to post on violin sites yet. Still working on one for a Dmin7b5  > G7#9 > Cmin. I'd like to put it up here when I get it good enough.



I'm able to post you tube links on other sites with the ctrl +c > ctrl + v method, but that doesn't work for FH.



Could someone please explain (yet again) how to do it for FH.



Thanks.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/06/2016:  09:14:53


Eyup Dave



link icon   (little world with a chain link underneath)  next to the smiley face, 5th icon from the right, 18th icon from the left, at the top of the text editor you used to write your post...



laugh



or       + ADD CONTENT - Video      on the right of the screen


Edited by - pete_fiddle on 11/06/2016 09:17:59

bluesmode - Posted - 11/06/2016:  16:14:06


ok Pete, I found the chained world, clicked on it, and it put me into URL stuff. do I then type in an https:// etc. address?

is there no 'choose file' place that I could take from desk top or My Videos on my computer?

does any of this have anything to do with the FH attachment List, ie: Add attachments ?

Thanks so far. I think I'm getting closer!

bluesmode - Posted - 11/08/2016:  21:19:53


@Petimar: jazz-mandolin.com/instruction%...deos.html



I just linked it. haven't watched it. will watch it now.

bluesmode - Posted - 11/08/2016:  22:16:13


Fantastic!! Thank you so much for posting these 4 licks. a real eye opener (or ear opener) for me.

so according to my understanding, this is the dom7 bop scale, and there is also the Major bop scale and the minor bop scale which is derived from Dorian. I've ran the dom7 & major bop scales up and down over 4 strings in about 3 keys, and only recently figured out the minor bop scale, so haven't done anything with that.

Do you also have instructional vids for the major & minor bops scales?

Thanks again, Great stuff.

Petimar - Posted - 11/15/2016:  17:07:20


Hi Dave,

You can download the free PDF book I did "Bebop Scales for Mandolin and Violin" at Jazz-Mandolin.com. There are a bunch of instruction articles and videos there. Even though it is on mandolin, most transfers straight to the fiddle.

fujers - Posted - 11/15/2016:  21:32:39


Pete I think I would like to listing and download it myself. I know there has to be some really good stuff on it in it. I'm busy recording some things. Could you send it to me I would really appreciate that.



fujers@comcast.net



Thanks, Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/02/2018:  23:27:20


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebop_scale

I've been making some break thru's over the past few weeks with bebop scales for Dom7 style blues. this is an ascending major-ish scale followed by a descending minor-ish scale. can go anywhere in a 12 or 16 bar, best to start on the first note of the measure. example in G over 2 octaves.

ascending major-ish: G A Bb B C# D E F# G A Bb B C# D E F# G

descending minor-ish: G F E D C# C Bb A G F E D C# C Bb A G

or the minor-ish also sounds great ascending. eg transposed to A.
A B C D Eb E F# G A B C D Eb E F# G A

or the ascending major-ish might be better to 'hear' in C, starting on C note on G string. C D Eb E F# G A B C D Eb E F# G. the F# in this scale gives it kind of a Lydian kick. I like it!

They're a bit tricky with the semi-tones and necessary slides. easy to get mixed up at first so I started writing things out. But it's starting to come together. I've working on these with my Yamaha QY 100 sequencer with a swingy bluesy shuffle background in Dom7, and I'm starting to work them in at the Jams.

pretty excited about this, cuz I'm catching on to it, sounds good (to me anyways) and I can actually use it. I figure if I can't play jazz, I can make my blues sound more Jazzy.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 02/03/2018:  08:46:09


Cool would love to hear where you are at.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/03/2018:  13:49:15


I play bebop relentlessly. How I essentially got the licks was to just ape signature Miles Davis and Cannonball Adderly runs from my LPs. Now that their scales are in my head I can officially call myself a hipster. I also have to say that the fiddle makes for a superb bebop purveyor.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/03/2018:  15:12:56


quote:

Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

Cool would love to hear where you are at.






it's going to take months to get reasonably fluent. I'm working on 3 different scales which i've given my own names to help remind myself what scale I'm working on. 'natural minor bop' 'blues bop' & 'Major-ish Swing bop' 



E natural minor bop = A blues bop = C major-ish swing bop.....I've discovered that starting on the given root, these 3 scale notes are inversions of each other. and of course this 'formula' is transposable. The patterns are the same for all 3 and work like any other patterns. I'm doing these 3 patterns for E A D G C....so I've got a long row to hoe, but I'm determined to keep at it coz I think it's worth it. I've tried new things...some stick and some don't...I think this will stick.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/03/2018:  15:26:26


quote:

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

I play bebop relentlessly. How I essentially got the licks was to just ape signature Miles Davis and Cannonball Adderly runs from my LPs. Now that their scales are in my head I can officially call myself a hipster. I also have to say that the fiddle makes for a superb bebop purveyor.






Thanks for posting Lonesome! Very encouraging to hear you say the fiddle is conducive to bebop. I was thinking 'am I nuts to pursue this'. It's a great work out for getting solid with all 12 notes over 4 strings in the first position. My muscle memory is starting to kick in for these patterns, and I find myself stumbling around on the pents and blues  patterns that I've done for years. cheeky

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/03/2018:  19:21:47


Maybe I'm thinking more of cool jazz than bebop, but here's some thoughts on the way I approach my jazz fiddling.

I think in terms of phrases and riffs, not scales or melodies. I think in terms of breaths. How many notes can I eke out in one inhalation if I were singing or playing a wind instrument? Three? Four? Five? Remember, the lead instruments in bop and jazz are generally winds and brass.

To get yourself in a riffy consciousness, try doing a major scale in a series of ascending four note riffs. Using the major scale, try "2,1,7,1" "3,2,1,2," "4,3,2,3," "5,4,3,4," etc., up the scale. Then down the scale.

Start your licks on the on the Flat 5 or Major 7.

Don't hit the notes right on the money. Aim a little low. Slide to the proper pitch or never slide all the way to the pitch at all. The fiddle is perfect for doing this nonsense.

If you're holding a note, don't be afraid of throwing in some sloppy, over-wide vibrato. Try, though, to never go above the target pitch. Stay a hair south. Wait a moment before you start to wobble.

Put yourself in the proper attitude. "I'll have another banana daiquiri." "My wife doesn't understand me." "Do you come here often?"

bluesmode - Posted - 02/03/2018:  22:04:05


ok, the 2171, 3212....was fun. found it easier to descend. was doing it in A, as that's an easy Major pattern to visualize. I'm not getting the 'start your licks on the b5 or M7'. would this be a major scale still....umm there is an M7 but no b5? Could you map this out for dummies?

fujers - Posted - 02/03/2018:  22:18:56


I got some cool little bebop licks but I can't explain them I guess I'll have to record them for you. Tell me what is a good key for you..nothing weird tho...Like Gdimb7to the third power..keep it simple. Jerry

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/03/2018:  23:13:40


quote:

Originally posted by bluesmode

ok, the 2171, 3212....was fun. found it easier to descend. was doing it in A, as that's an easy Major pattern to visualize. I'm not getting the 'start your licks on the b5 or M7'. would this be a major scale still....umm there is an M7 but no b5? Could you map this out for dummies?






When you're playing in the major scale, just stick a flat 5 into the middle of it.  Don't worry if the guy who laid out the scale (I believe it was 10th Century Italian scholar Guido d'Arezzo) comes back from the ether and glares at you.  He probably hated jazz, anyway.  The idea is to play riffs, not formal, complete scales, in any event.   Putting it another way, let your fingers do the walking.  Don't let notions of what's right & proper get in the way.  And yeah, the pattern works great downwards as well.   Happy playing!

bluesmode - Posted - 02/04/2018:  07:25:17


I think what I'm doing is quite different than what you're doing. I'm not using the bob scales for jazz, but to throw them into my bag of tricks for good ol' 12 bar blues. if you take 5 note pents, 6 note blues scale, 7 note mode scales & 8 note bebop scales....each of those not only has a different sound but a different cadence. Throw in some modal M7 and min7b5 arps and that's plenty to keep me busy for basic blues.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/04/2018:  16:42:11


Blues Mode -- Unnerstand... I use jazz elements to jazz up my blues, as well. (I hope I'm not offending you here but I'm so sick of Duane Allman licks, I wanna hurl.  Clapton, on the other hand, is my hero forever.)


Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 02/04/2018 16:45:35

fujers - Posted - 02/04/2018:  17:55:47


I know what you mean about being sick of Duane Allman licks and I'm kinda of tired of them to. But if you listen to the things they will teach you...is if you just listen to how they used pentatonic these scales you might change your mind. Now I'm not saying my whole world is centered on pentatonic scales because it isn't...and I know my far share of scales too. But when I use pentatonic scales the world comes alive. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/04/2018:  22:09:24


well, if we're talkin' guitar bands, what I like to play to the best (and what I think I'm best at) is hard drivin' blues, like say ZZ Top. If I fall in with the right guys at the blues bar jams...it's a RUSH!

speaking of Clapton, I liked the Cream. in fact I've got the Fresh Cream album cover on my wall, along with some other album covers. the first Led Zep, Deep Purple Machine Head, Johnny Winter, Pink Floyd Atom Heart Mother, It's A Beautiful Day (David LaFlamme on violin) and saved the best for the last... Mahavishnu Orchestra (Jerry Goodman on violin)

DougD - Posted - 02/05/2018:  05:05:16


Years ago we played at a national college music booking conference. Also on that show was the Mahavishnu Orchestra, as well as Maynard Ferguson and Earth,Wind and Fire. The poor sound guys had no idea how to make a little five piece acoustic string band loud enough to fill the concrete cavern of the convention center. I don't think there is a way, even now. One of our weirder gigs!

bluesmode - Posted - 02/05/2018:  06:54:59


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

I know what you mean about being sick of Duane Allman licks and I'm kinda of tired of them to. But if you listen to the things they will teach you...is if you just listen to how they used pentatonic these scales you might change your mind. Now I'm not saying my whole world is centered on pentatonic scales because it isn't...and I know my far share of scales too. But when I use pentatonic scales the world comes alive. Jerry






@fugers: Jerry, you must play pents different than I do, cuz I simply run out of licks and pent patterns after so long. but if you do one semi-tone slide anywhere, you've just slid out of the pentatonic, yes?  


Edited by - bluesmode on 02/05/2018 07:01:12

bluesmode - Posted - 02/05/2018:  06:58:33


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

Years ago we played at a national college music booking conference. Also on that show was the Mahavishnu Orchestra, as well as Maynard Ferguson and Earth,Wind and Fire. The poor sound guys had no idea how to make a little five piece acoustic string band loud enough to fill the concrete cavern of the convention center. I don't think there is a way, even now. One of our weirder gigs!






@DougD: are you saying you were on the same stage as Mahavishnu? i'm flabbergasted!!

DougD - Posted - 02/05/2018:  07:26:21


Yes, we were on the same show on the same stage. We didn't play together though, or really have any interaction. I think I watched their soundcheck, but its been a long time ago, and that's not really my style of music. I have played in a few unlikely combinations over the years though.

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