FiddleBas - Posted - 12/28/2015:  19:51:03

Finally some solid time to work some things out over the holidays. Thought I'd share a few notes from a fellow traveler, be it one focused on bluegrass.  Been working on double stops, in two ways:

1. Trying to integrate 7th "chords" in my double stops repertoire, particularly to help transitions from I to IV and V to I. Learned that you will typically want the double stop of the seventh with the third (rather than the fifth), since it defines the chord better and resolves to the 3-1 of the target chord, each one semi-tone away (7 resolves down, 3 resolves up). All of these 7-3 chords are augmented fourths / diminished fifths (enharmonic), which on the fiddle really is one of the trickier double-stops to play - higher finger reaching just over a lower finger. The 7-5 version can of course also be used and is easier to finger. 


2. Learning my double stops in third position. In particular, shifting to third position and immediately having my bearings, ready for changing through I/IV/V/(vi) chords.

The good news is that there are only 7 finger patterns that apply everywhere on the finger board, across strings and positions. Since I learned my double stops initially on the G string, I think of the patterns based on the chords each pattern makes on those strings. I put together a little diagram for myself that I have attached in case anyone else gets some use out of it (yes, I realize there are probably thousands of these floating around the internet - the value is probably more in the making than in the having). Each row has the patterns for the major chord, minor chord and the 7th chord (sometimes with an alternate version if it exists). The circles indicate the finger positions for each note in the chord, with the numbers/colors used to highlight the root/7th (dark blue), 3rd (light blue) and fifth (white) for easy reference. 

One thought that may be obvious: I found it very important to be aware of where the root note is of the chord you are playing, since once you know where your root is, the rest of the shape falls in place (this has been important to me as I am working on positions, where I am much less familiar). And talking about shape, I found it very helpful to practice these shapes by putting all fingers down on chord tones on two strings, and then taking off each "highest" (i.e. closest to you) finger in turn to make a different double stop. In that way, you start to feel the whole shape, rather than a bunch of separate notes. 

Double stop chords

 

 

 

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 12/28/2015:  20:16:19

Yep ...... closed position scales are the gateway to a handful of double stops....... The fiddle and mandolin being tuned in fifths allows moving around much less of a hassle than being tuned in fourths. R/

martynspeck - Posted - 12/29/2015:  14:25:55

On that chart, On the column for the 7ths. 

The 7 and 3 are always in the same relative position but sometimes flipped. (i.e. 3 is on the lower string for A, F & G while 7 is on the lower string for B,C,D & E)

Why is that?

FiddleBas - Posted - 12/29/2015:  20:15:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by martynspeck

 

On that chart, On the column for the 7ths. 

The 7 and 3 are always in the same relative position but sometimes flipped. (i.e. 3 is on the lower string for A, F & G while 7 is on the lower string for B,C,D & E)

Why is that?

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It's an artifact of the fact that from the 3 to the 7 is the same distance  (i.e. 6 semitones / 3 whole tones, the infamous "tritone") as from the 7 up to the 3. It's always the same physical interval, does not matter if the 3 or the 7 is at the bottom. And which one of those two is on the lower string is just a function of where the root note is positioned in the pattern.

Does that make sense?

martynspeck - Posted - 12/30/2015:  09:10:43

quote:

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Originally posted by FiddleBas

 

<snip/>

Does that make sense?

 

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Yes it does. Fascinating.

buckhenry - Posted - 12/31/2015:  15:31:50

The good news is that there are only 7 finger patterns

Actually there are 12 finger shapes to play double stops, check my link below. But I forgot to add the intervals of the second degree which is played by the first finger on the high string and the 4th finger on the low string, either the Major second and the Minor second can be played like this. Also, I made a mistake in my diagram...the correct interval is the Dim 5th or Aug 4th,  not Dim 4th as I labeled.

The 7 and 3 are always in the same relative position but sometimes flipped.

We are talking about the *flatten 7th* note of the major scale, it forms a *tritone* between the 3rd degree of this scale. The tritone is formed by the note exactly in the middle of the octave, which means it is 6 semi-tones in either direction, from or too the given note, so it is the same interval when 'flipped'.  The tritone naturally occurs in the unaltered Major scale from the 4th degree to  the 7th degree, and visa-versa.

 

 

 

Chops Chomper - Posted - 01/19/2016:  18:41:37

Double stops are kinda hard ain't they. You have to be precise on how you hit them. There are some practices that you could use that mat make it easier for you play them

Lets say you are in the key of D. We are not going to start from your lowest point besides the lowest point you can figure that out by yourself.

D--Play your open D and A together...a double stop....now play with your second finger on the D string at F# hold that note and hit the D note on your A string. Another double stop.

Now hold the D note on your A string and hit the F# on your E string. You have effectively played in the first position of your first trifecta. These are just some of the things that fiddle players do to warm up before a show. This same positions can also be played in the key of G. Now a lot of fiddlers...if they are going be playing a lot of double stops they practice them before hand just so they can get a balance of what they are playing....you know just to get used to there fiddling...after that the game is on.

These positions can be played up the neck...same position,,,just up the neck. There is a lot of other double stops that you can use in your journey but I would stick with these right now.

Double stop playing is great....but don't let the double playing get in the way of single string playing....that's where the action is. Jerry

Dick Hauser - Posted - 01/20/2016:  07:31:05

Some online instructionals on musical intervals work best for me. Equating the sound of each of the 12 intervals to the first part of a familiar tune makes memorization easier. I also learned and remembered the number of chromatic intervals between the "root" note and the other note in a double stop. Heavy use of some double stops makes memorization easy. But using the method I learned helps me figure out how to play unfamiliar double stops. An FHO member we don't hear much anymore, Diane Gillenwater, made me an instructional.



Wherever you are Diane, HAPPY NEW YEAR and thank you.

Edited by - Dick Hauser on 01/20/2016 07:32:01

Chops Chomper - Posted - 01/21/2016:  22:54:25

You know, I wouldn't worry to much about how things work. I would concentrate on what you know now. Time will bring you to a better understanding of all you need to know

You can waste a lot of time and money on just trying to get a grasp of all the things you talk about. But we are talking about fiddle playing. Do you think Tommy Jarrell gave two hoots about how things work. No he didn't, he just played. Just a thought, if you just sit down with your fiddle and discover things on your own you would be better off than trying to understand what you are playing.

Playing fiddle is just what it is fiddle. Do you think that Paul Warren, Vasser Clements, Bobby Hicks, Chubby Wize the list goes on ever gave a hoot about understanding what they play. I'm glad to say no.

Real fiddle playing you don't read it...you play it. Some of the best fiddler's I have ever known play this way. I'm not saying don't read your notes for some thats the only way to play or understand.

But real fiddle playing comes from the heart and soul. To me, understanding about flat 7, aug 5ths and a dozen other things may lead you to somewhere, but what about just fiddling.

Just fiddling will take you to more places than understanding how it works will ever do. Just food for thought. Jerry 

graeme - Posted - 01/28/2016:  16:04:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

You know, I wouldn't worry to much about how things work. I would concentrate on what you know now. Time will bring you to a better understanding of all you need to know

You can waste a lot of time and money on just trying to get a grasp of all the things you talk about. But we are talking about fiddle playing. Do you think Tommy Jarrell gave two hoots about how things work. No he didn't, he just played. Just a thought, if you just sit down with your fiddle and discover things on your own you would be better off than trying to understand what you are playing.

Playing fiddle is just what it is fiddle. Do you think that Paul Warren, Vasser Clements, Bobby Hicks, Chubby Wize the list goes on ever gave a hoot about understanding what they play. I'm glad to say no.

Real fiddle playing you don't read it...you play it. Some of the best fiddler's I have ever known play this way. I'm not saying don't read your notes for some thats the only way to play or understand.

But real fiddle playing comes from the heart and soul. To me, understanding about flat 7, aug 5ths and a dozen other things may lead you to somewhere, but what about just fiddling.

Just fiddling will take you to more places than understanding how it works will ever do. Just food for thought. Jerry 

 

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Jerry, this "don't bother about understanding why things work" theme is just silly. Everything we do, everything, we do better when we understand the "why" as well as the "how".  Ask your doctor, plumber, fishmonger, elephant tamer ...

You have already told us that you can barely read music (or, was that "can't read" music); you are not in a good position to advise people on whether or not they should understand music as well as play it. Remember that old reel, "A Little Learning Is a Dangerous Thing"? It's in Bb minor.

Your strength is your playing, and we respect and admire you for that.

Tbird - Posted - 01/29/2016:  06:06:24

I wouldn't be too quick to dispel what Jerry said. Everyone is different and learn in different ways. For some people reading music, theory, chord construction, etc, is great but not everyone finds it easy to comprehend those things and incorporate it into their playing. Sometimes the conscious mind has to stop thinking and get out of the way. There's been many, many great players who never had a clue as to what they were doing. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 01/29/2016:  10:39:43

With respect ,this is a "Theory" forum, and again with respect , there's a whole other forum for the "Playing Advice" which i think Jerry is offering

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 01/29/2016 10:40:35

FiddleBas - Posted - 01/29/2016:  13:47:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 

The good news is that there are only 7 finger patterns

 

Actually there are 12 finger shapes to play double stops, check my link below. But I forgot to add the intervals of the second degree which is played by the first finger on the high string and the 4th finger on the low string, either the Major second and the Minor second can be played like this. Also, I made a mistake in my diagram...the correct interval is the Dim 5th or Aug 4th,  not Dim 4th as I labeled.

 

The 7 and 3 are always in the same relative position but sometimes flipped.

 

Just to clarify for those following along - we're talking about two different things: my diagram is about (select) chord shapes, your diagram is about intervals. Not disagreeing, just noting we're talking about different things. 

buckhenry - Posted - 01/29/2016:  14:04:25

.....intervals or chord shapes/double stops.......same thing.....!?

Chops Chomper - Posted - 01/29/2016:  20:58:29

It doesn't make since to me. Why would you want to learn about 7 chord when there are other chords or scales you should be looking into. Playing seven will take some time to understand and more understand how to use then. Just my thought.

Just like playing a second or a 4th or a 6th Now where in the heck are you going to play them at...probably no where in less you know where to put them.

Learning 7th's is good for you to learn but where are you going to put them. Learning 7th's is mostly used by Swing and Jazz players and there are forms of music that use them such as classical. If it where me I would stick to my basic's and branch off from there. Learn what you want too. But to me...I would learn my root. Jerry 

PS: I appreciate the nice things you said about me

Edited by - Chops Chomper on 01/29/2016 20:59:24

bluesmode - Posted - 01/29/2016:  21:39:18

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

>>Learning 7th's is good for you to learn but where are you going to put them. Learning 7th's is mostly used by Swing and Jazz players<<

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Jerry: what's wrong with jazz and swing? Not everyone plays 'fiddle'.

buckhenry - Posted - 01/29/2016:  23:35:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

PS: I appreciate the nice things you said about me

---

Oh now Jerry, don't let it go to your head.........

I believe we are talking about the dominant 7th chords, because the OP mentions going from I to IV and V to I.......?

And you get them Dominant 7ths in duck pond songs...... 

FiddleBas - Posted - 01/30/2016:  07:53:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 

.....intervals or chord shapes/double stops.......same thing.....!?

---

Well, chords are made up of intervals, but only certain intervals show up in the chords listed (major/minor/7th). 

Put differently, the point of the chart is to illustrate all the intervals (i.e. fingerings) for select chords simultaneously. 

And to Jerry's question: 7th chords show up a *lot* in bluegrass, of course from V7 to I, but also I7 (really V/IV) to IV. 

buckhenry - Posted - 01/30/2016:  13:32:13

quote:

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Originally posted by FiddleBas

 

---

only certain intervals show up in the chords listed (major/minor/7th). 

 

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All the double stops shown in my diagram belong to the chords of Major and Minor and Major 7th and dominant 7th.

Even the 2nds belong to Dom7th and M7th. But my diagram applies to the entire fingerboard and not specific to  any key. This is because the same chord shapes reoccur in all positions and keys.

graeme - Posted - 01/30/2016:  17:14:56

Are there 7th chords in your fiddle music?

First, we must ask, how did 7th chords come about? Indeed, how did chords come about?

Homophony  -- music composed with harmony in mind -- arose in about the time of J S Bach, and it was only possible when issues of temperament were sort of solved.  The octave did not divide easily into 12 semitones when the physics of vibrating strings (harpsichord) or air columns (organ) were used as the underpinning concepts of our melodic intervals.

The first chords were chunks of counterpoint (melody against melody), reused from one tune to another. Instead of writing four voices using the principles of counter point, a vertical block of sound was used, because it had worked before, thousands of times, and these vertical blocks were chords.

The point is, chords and chord changes, emerged from voice leading -- how the melodic lines moved.

Now, last night I played a bunch of reels and stuff, and I found just about the same use of particular inversions of the D arpeggio at least four times.

I like a bit more variety in my music. One way this can come about is when the 7th chord is allowed into the reel and other fiddle music.  (Another way is when we start playing these traditional tune genres in a greater range of keys. That would be a kick forward -- ah, but there goes the tradition. A third way is that I can also play jazz, and commercial music, and ...)

The old timers got bored with their music, too, and they opened the door to new sounds by re-tuning their instruments. This, it seems, was easier than learning to play in Eb, or F minor.​

Better yet, two vertical blocks could be used, one after the other, a chord progression. This succeeded because of voice-leading, the movement of, say, the soprano voice, from the leading tone to the tonic ( 7 - 8 ), in a V - I cadence, sounded good. Every time.

So chords emerged because of the way we use melodic lines, the melody, the inner voices, and the bass line, and if this melodic movement sounds good, use it more often, and now we have new chords.

Anyway, I would ask people to be open-minded about using 7th chords, in their music: they might like the new wind. (Might even like the 9th, or 13th, or b9, even. Blimey.)

pete_fiddle - Posted - 01/31/2016:  02:08:30

It seems to my (uneducated) ear at least, that when playing in some genre's, it would be polite to try to introduce my 7th chord with a  7sus4 instead of trying to wade straight in with a 7th? i say this tentatively, as i have only just thought of this after reading through this topic, i think i have read somewhere that  classical composers went to great lengths to avoid these suspended harmonies, but i don't know why?

FiddleBas - Posted - 01/31/2016:  06:34:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlechops

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddleBas

 

---

only certain intervals show up in the chords listed (major/minor/7th). 

 

---

 

All the double stops shown in my diagram belong to the chords of Major and Minor and Major 7th and dominant 7th.

Even the 2nds belong to Dom7th and M7th. But my diagram applies to the entire fingerboard and not specific to  any key. This is because the same chord shapes reoccur in all positions and keys.

---

Ok, agreed. Do note that the original diagram is also not key specific - the shapes go anywhere on the fingerboard, the one you need just depends on where the root not for the chord is relative to where you are on the fingerboard.

buckhenry - Posted - 01/31/2016:  14:38:20

Sorry, I saw the labels....''A'' shape etc, and the same shapes repeated for other chords making me think that your chart is key specific....?

With my diagram you must know where all the notes are located on the fingerboard, and you must know the theory of the chord structure..... 

Chops Chomper - Posted - 01/31/2016:  16:10:20

Henry, I'm surprised that know about duck pond tunes. We'll in a way I'm not really. /Ain't they cool to play and you don't even have to play that much.

Bluemode, You are absolutely right not everyone of us hear play fiddle. I'm just saying to play 7, 4ths and stuff like that on the fiddle is going to take some work. You khow you play a regular G scale now to play the 7th you have to hit flat your B note and sometimes your 5th or 3rd just depends on what it is you won't to play. I play swing and I know a little about of what I talk about. Sometimes we or I add some other notes that are not in the scale to make things interesting. You do not want to play regular stuff because that is not interesting to the ear. What you want to do is bring tension between the notes this makes it more interesting to those who listen to you play. Sorry I thought you where just talking about fiddle. But really it the same with any instrument you play....bring tension to whatever you play and resolve it. Jerry 

graeme - Posted - 02/01/2016:  15:45:06

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

It seems to my (uneducated) ear at least, that when playing in some genre's, it would be polite to try to introduce my 7th chord with a  7sus4 instead of trying to wade straight in with a 7th? i say this tentatively, as i have only just thought of this after reading through this topic, i think i have read somewhere that  classical composers went to great lengths to avoid these suspended harmonies, but i don't know why?

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The composers of hundreds of years ago (Baroque, actually, not Classical) did use suspensions, prepared, sounded and then resolved.

The first use of suspensions was in the V7 - I cadence, where the leading tone (7) was the third of the V7 chord, and it rose to the tonic (1) of the I chord, (this being the resolution).  At the same time, the 7th of the V7 chord was resolved down a half step to become the third of the tonic chord. The suspension was "discovered" to decorate the cadence, and the suspended note was sounded in the preceding chord, held in the same voice, then stepped down to become (resolved to) the chord note "it should have been in the first place".

In this day and age, in popular and commercial music, we have heard so many sus chords that we don't bother preparing or even resolving them. (But not so much in fiddle music.)

Anyway, keep playing.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/01/2016:  20:41:09

...best use of sus chord in popular and commercial music..... Pinball Wizard, by The Who. now that's the way to rock a sus chord!

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/01/2016:  21:24:50

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesmode

 

...best use of sus chord in popular and commercial music..... Pinball Wizard, by The Who. now that's the way to rock a sus chord!

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Here's another:

                 D7sus                                        D7

​..............young boy named ROCKY RACCOON

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/02/2016:  07:37:44

quote:

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Originally posted by graeme

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

It seems to my (uneducated) ear at least, that when playing in some genre's, it would be polite to try to introduce my 7th chord with a  7sus4 instead of trying to wade straight in with a 7th? i say this tentatively, as i have only just thought of this after reading through this topic, i think i have read somewhere that  classical composers went to great lengths to avoid these suspended harmonies, but i don't know why?

---

The composers of hundreds of years ago (Baroque, actually, not Classical) did use suspensions, prepared, sounded and then resolved.

The first use of suspensions was in the V7 - I cadence, where the leading tone (7) was the third of the V7 chord, and it rose to the tonic (1) of the I chord, (this being the resolution).  At the same time, the 7th of the V7 chord was resolved down a half step to become the third of the tonic chord. The suspension was "discovered" to decorate the cadence, and the suspended note was sounded in the preceding chord, held in the same voice, then stepped down to become (resolved to) the chord note "it should have been in the first place".

In this day and age, in popular and commercial music, we have heard so many sus chords that we don't bother preparing or even resolving them. (But not so much in fiddle music.)

Anyway, keep playing.

---

maybe the new "cool" composers of the transitional and classical period, thought that it was a bit naff to use the old suspended cadences, in the same way that some  trad Irish players,and other modally or pentatonic orientated (trad) players think its now a bit  naff to play a iim7 V7 I cadence when accompanying their tunes?

ps i'm not talking about Spandex/ Marshall stack/ Wind machine sus chords... more like the James Taylor tinkly stuff

graeme - Posted - 02/02/2016:  15:05:53

Good one, Pete.

Of course, there are plenty of people who, for fifty years now, have refused to play Satin Doll: too much iim7 - V7 - Imaj7 essence.

adaring - Posted - 02/07/2016:  13:17:42

Fascinating series of posts and comments. I tried to explain some of this when I wrote my recent book about playing rhythm guitar. It’s difficult to get the concept regarding the relationship between the 7 note and the 3 note in a form most folks will understand. In the book, I used a combination of description and finger positions on the neck of a guitar, then still ended up with around twenty pages of explanation to just scratch the surface. My attachment tries to adapt some of the book to this discussion.

7-3-7

 

 

 

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/08/2016:  15:53:14

This seems relevant to this conversation 

youtu.be/Wm2E3TtlmkY

graeme - Posted - 02/09/2016:  02:59:08

What is hard about saying: The 3rd and the 7th, played at the same time, sound as a "tritone", or three whole steps, and these two notes are only found, playing this interval, in the V7 chord of the seventh chords of the major scale. So, if you hear the tritone, you are hearing the V7 chord. Moreover, only the tritone defines the key you are in: G7 defines the key of C major. (G7b9 defines the tonic minor, C minor key.)

The whole steps that make up the tritone are half-way up the octave (6 semitones used to make a tritone, and 6 more to go to make an octave).

So, the same three notes of one tritone form the tritone of another chord.  G7 (tritone f(7th) and b(3rd) is also found in Db7 (tritone f(3rd) and b(7th)). (Don't you love brackets?)

And so often jazz musicians substitute the Db7 chord for the G7 chord, a tritone substitution.  And, iim7 - V7 - I maj7 becomes iim7 - bII7 - I maj 7 (in C: Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 becomes Dm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7).

Use your tritone substitution well in playing the blues and the lights go down and the lingerie comes off.  But you knew that.

Edited by - graeme on 02/09/2016 03:02:07

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2016:  20:53:05

quote:

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Originally posted by graeme

 

 (G7b9 defines the tonic minor, C minor key.) SNIP (in C: Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 becomes Dm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7).

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I Grok these two things after playing them thru. I like that Db7. 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/10/2016:  02:14:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

 

This seems relevant to this conversation 

youtu.be/Wm2E3TtlmkY

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That was pretty funny ChickenMan​  trouble is, I couldn't resist going thru it a few times to see if I could actually figure out what he was talking about with the #11 and Lydian Dominant tonality.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/10/2016:  04:22:19

Here's a Valentine's Day card he can give her.

lotusmusic.com/lessonpix/melod...nharm.jpg

adaring - Posted - 02/18/2016:  14:56:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by graeme

 

What is hard about saying: The 3rd and the 7th, played at the same time, sound as a "tritone", or three whole steps, and these two notes are only found, playing this interval, in the V7 chord of the seventh chords of the major scale. So, if you hear the tritone, you are hearing the V7 chord. Moreover, only the tritone defines the key you are in: G7 defines the key of C major. (G7b9 defines the tonic minor, C minor key.)

The whole steps that make up the tritone are half-way up the octave (6 semitones used to make a tritone, and 6 more to go to make an octave).

So, the same three notes of one tritone form the tritone of another chord.  G7 (tritone f(7th) and b(3rd) is also found in Db7 (tritone f(3rd) and b(7th)). (Don't you love brackets?)

And so often jazz musicians substitute the Db7 chord for the G7 chord, a tritone substitution.  And, iim7 - V7 - I maj7 becomes iim7 - bII7 - I maj 7 (in C: Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 becomes Dm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7).

Use your tritone substitution well in playing the blues and the lights go down and the lingerie comes off.  But you knew that.

---

The difficulty comes from fiddling being a folk art. Therein, the language any given teacher uses to explain a specific skill is different depending upon the teacher's teacher. The commonality exists within the classical community, but doesn't within the folk community. What makes sense to you might make no sense to me unless we are speaking the same language.

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/18/2016:  19:17:45

Huuh