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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: timing


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drypitstop - Posted - 10/25/2015:  11:21:55


Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but how does some one determine the timeing for a tune, Like I can hear a tune and determineif it is a waltz and the timing would be 3/4 but what about other tunes..................................................................D


amwildman - Posted - 10/25/2015:  11:27:45


  The single biggest help to me in learning this was dancing.  Contradances helped a ton with internalizing the rhythms.


MikeM70 - Posted - 10/25/2015:  11:53:24


yup, dancing is great. I dance about as well as a morbidly obese elephant with 4 left feet, however even tapping the foot or swaying the body, nodding the head soon gets you in touch with the rhythm.

amwildman - Posted - 10/25/2015:  11:56:12


quote:

Originally posted by MikeM70

 

 morbidly obese elephant with 4 left feet







are you describing your dancing or mine? wink


abinigia - Posted - 10/25/2015:  13:17:39


Most tunes are in a multiple of 2 or a multiple of 3. Counting out 4 for each measure is the easiest. Three is waltz time, whether or not you dance it. 6/8 time is like a fast waltz time and is generally a jig. If it helps you can count 2 beats for that too - one count for each 3 beats. 1-2-3   2-23  1-2-3   2-2-3. It is easier to tap you foot at that speed than tapping 6 times. As you can see, you can also combine those to count in 4 for 2 measures instead of counting to 2 twice.



For the purposes of writing down tunes and conversing about them it is good to know how they're normally counted. But you can count beats in your own head in the way that helps you feel the music the best.


amwildman - Posted - 10/25/2015:  13:24:15


Yes, jigs are tricky. They really have only 2 beats per measure instead of the notated six.  Best to just tap your foot to the beat and count how many notes for each beat.  Most of the time you'll come up with 2, 3, or 4.  You can extrapolate from there whether a jig, polka, reel, etc.  Not sure what the equivalent of polka is in American music, but I'm sure there is something with 2 notes per beat.


Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/26/2015:  07:12:07


For most jams, knowing the difference between a waltz and everything else is all a rhythm player needs.   In fact, the person playing melody often plays reels, hornpipes, polkas and breakdowns the same way.  The names of the tunes indicate different styles, but they are all played the same way.  I can't speak for traditional southeastern "old time" music though.  Do they even play waltzes ?


DeamhanFola - Posted - 10/26/2015:  12:24:47


quote:

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

For most jams, knowing the difference between a waltz and everything else is all a rhythm player needs.   In fact, the person playing melody often plays reels, hornpipes, polkas and breakdowns the same way.  The names of the tunes indicate different styles, but they are all played the same way.  I can't speak for traditional southeastern "old time" music though.  Do they even play waltzes ?







I don't understand these statements at all. At east in Irish music there is a very real difference between the approach that one takes to different tune types, whether rhythm or melody player.



 


ChickenMan - Posted - 10/26/2015:  13:56:06


quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

For most jams, knowing the difference between a waltz and everything else is all a rhythm player needs.   In fact, the person playing melody often plays reels, hornpipes, polkas and breakdowns the same way.  The names of the tunes indicate different styles, but they are all played the same way.  I can't speak for traditional southeastern "old time" music though.  Do they even play waltzes ?







I don't understand these statements at all. At east in Irish music there is a very real difference between the approach that one takes to different tune types, whether rhythm or melody player.



 





I think Dick is generalizing for US old time players who, for example, often treat a hornpipe the same way as a reel or a clog. It seems everywhere else in the world still remembers that each tune type had/has a dance type associated with it.

DeamhanFola - Posted - 10/27/2015:  08:36:58


quote:

Originally posted by ChickenMan

 
quote:


Originally posted by DeamhanFola

 
quote:


Originally posted by Dick Hauser



 


For most jams, knowing the difference between a waltz and everything else is all a rhythm player needs.   In fact, the person playing melody often plays reels, hornpipes, polkas and breakdowns the same way.  The names of the tunes indicate different styles, but they are all played the same way.  I can't speak for traditional southeastern "old time" music though.  Do they even play waltzes ?






 




I don't understand these statements at all. At east in Irish music there is a very real difference between the approach that one takes to different tune types, whether rhythm or melody player.




 







 




I think Dick is generalizing for US old time players who, for example, often treat a hornpipe the same way as a reel or a clog. It seems everywhere else in the world still remembers that each tune type had/has a dance type associated with it.




I see. That explains some occasions I've witnessed when an OT guitarist shows up and tries to apply generic 4/4 timing to a polka or double-jig timing to a slide. Please, old-time players--friends don't let friends banjax Irish sets! tongue


Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/27/2015:  11:08:14


Yes, I was generalizing and I was referring to the music most commonly played in areas I have lived.  There is one Irish jam in my area.  The musicians play non-stop except for one beer.  Just an occasional "whoop" - no talking.  All musicians are very good with some being professionals.  Finally, if you don't already know and can play the medleys and tunes well, they don't want you picking up your instrument.  



 



 


DeamhanFola - Posted - 10/27/2015:  13:42:11


quote:

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

Yes, I was generalizing and I was referring to the music most commonly played in areas I have lived.  There is one Irish jam in my area.  The musicians play non-stop except for one beer.  Just an occasional "whoop" - no talking.  All musicians are very good with some being professionals.  Finally, if you don't already know and can play the medleys and tunes well, they don't want you picking up your instrument.  




 




 







What is this 'one beer' to which you refer? tongue


DeamhanFola - Posted - 10/27/2015:  13:54:21


quote:

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

Yes, I was generalizing and I was referring to the music most commonly played in areas I have lived.  There is one Irish jam in my area.  The musicians play non-stop except for one beer.  Just an occasional "whoop" - no talking.  All musicians are very good with some being professionals.  Finally, if you don't already know and can play the medleys and tunes well, they don't want you picking up your instrument.  




 




 







But in all seriousness, you'll find a spectra of expectations depending on the Irish seisi/un. There's a place for the hard-core version above, especially for veterans who have had more than one set ruined in the past. That said, there are other more open / slow seisiun/s that allow beginners to have at it, and those gatherings have their place too.



[BTW, the 'no talking' thing seems a bit grim, and isn't really representative of the top-shelf seisi/uns that I've attended, especially in Ireland where there is often as much chat as there are tunes. The one exception that I remember was an awkward seisi/un in Clare, where the participants clearly had long-standing animosity towards one another and barely acknowledged one another's presence. Get a musical divorce already! The sort of gathering you back slowly away from.]



But to the OP's point, I think a very basic standard for participation in Irish gatherings at the intermediate and above level should be an understanding of the rhythms involved. I'm more easily put off my stride by a novice neighbour around the circle who has poor rhythm than I am by one who has less-than-perfect intonation, for example.



That goes for both melody and rhythm players. It's not unreasonable to want a guitarist to play a hornpipe rhythm (as opposed to that of a reel) whilst the melody players are playing a set of Irish hornpipes. If a slip jig (as opposed to a double jig) rhythm is unfamiliar to such a hypothetical guitarist, the intermediate to fast seisiu/n is not really the place to have the first crack at it.



In short, one learn the rhythms of the individual tune types by listening long and hard to the genre. IME German polkas are very different in feel to Irish ones, for example, so sometimes even key signatures won't do more than put you nearby the target.



Edited by - DeamhanFola on 10/27/2015 14:09:27

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/27/2015:  18:02:55


quote:

Originally posted by drypitstop

 

Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but how does some one determine the timeing for a tune, Like I can hear a tune and determineif it is a waltz and the timing would be 3/4 but what about other tunes..................................................................D







Not exactly sure what you are asking; the differences of meters (time signatures), or of tune types.The latter, mostly it is just via LISTENING. There are subtleties that are not conveyed from just the meter. Meter is just the perceptual frame of grouping and division of steady BEAT. AS Brian pointed out it's just 2's and 3's. Really there are just a few common meters to cover a wide variety of rhythms.




  1. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a ]

        Strong feel of 2 - each divided by 2, (and by 2 again) [2x2x2]

        Reels, Breakdowns, Polkas, Hornpipes, Strathspeys, Rags, Barn Dances, Two-Steps, Schottisches, ...

        and numerous other music - are examples of this most common meter

     

  2. [ TICK-a-TOCK-a-TUCK-a ]

        Strong  feel of 3 with division of 2. [3x2]  Waltzes are one example

     

  3. [ TICK-a-tee TOCK-a-tee ]

        Strong feel of 2 - with a division of 3. [2x3] Jigs are one example

     

  4. [ TICK-a-tee TOCK-a-tee TUCK-a-tee ]

        Strong  feel of 3 - with division of 3 .[3x3]  Slip jigs are one example



    ----------------------2 variations--------------

     

  5. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a / TACK-a-tee-a TUCK-a-tee-a ]

      Essentially this is the same as #3, but combining 2 measures to make a feel of 4 as one measure

      each half still has the feel of 2 as in #3.

     

  6. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a / TACK-a-tee-a TUCK-a-tee-a ]

      Essentially this is the same as #1, but combining 2 measures to make a feel of 4 as one measure

      each half still has all the feel of 2 as in #1.



Notice in #1 the same meter can represent many different rhythmic feels. (similar with the other meters).  The meter is rather generic; just represents a perceptual frame; one can't really extrapolate much more than that (as polka, hornpipe, reel...) - as the rhythm differences comes from what you play on top of that, with what accents, flow, syncopations, subtle timing articulations - some more obvious than others.  Experiencing these, via LISTENING, dancing, just feeling these differences IMO is the best way to grasp them. The notational, math, formula calculations, can perhaps generally point to some aspect (like an accent shift); but can often seem to miss, or can make it quite convoluted.



(Certainly there are other uncommon meters, 5/4, 7/4, 10/8, 11/8, 8/8.. they are all easier to grasp as some combinations of 2's and 3's. They don't come up in a lot of fiddle tunes, or popular songs.)



 


DeamhanFola - Posted - 10/29/2015:  13:32:17



 



In short, one learn the rhythms of the individual tune types by listening long and hard to the genre. IME German polkas are very different in feel to Irish ones, for example, so sometimes even key signatures won't do more than put you nearby the target.






Whoops. I meant 'time signatures' rather than key signatures.


fujers - Posted - 11/08/2015:  21:11:24


You ask a good question. I guess you are new to fiddling or you wouldn't be asking. You know what waltz time is...it goes 1-2-3-1-2-3- and so on and there's other time signatures that you could use but I won't go there.

A simple answer is if you listen to a tune....tap your foot you will soon discover if it is 2/4 or 4/4 and we'll keep it simple

You have listen to the tune you want to play and determine what are these guys playing. The answer is if you can tap your feet to the tune twice its 2/4 if you have to tap your feet 4 times you have 4/4

Jerry

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 11/11/2015:  05:24:57


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

You have listen to the tune you want to play and determine what are these guys playing. The answer is if you can tap your feet to the tune twice its 2/4 if you have to tap your feet 4 times you have 4/4

Jerry







Not sure if this clarifies much, because 2 2/4 bars = 4 beats. 



A good first step is to distinguish between duple and triple, or 2's and 3's. That's your first broad category of rhythm. Ask yourself, is the BIG beat divided into 2's or 3's? 2's will give you your duple meters (2/4, 4/4, cut time). 3's will give you your triple meters (3/4, 6/8, 9/8)


mswlogo - Posted - 11/11/2015:  20:07:38


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

You ask a good question. I guess you are new to fiddling or you wouldn't be asking. You know what waltz time is...it goes 1-2-3-1-2-3- and so on and there's other time signatures that you could use but I won't go there.



A simple answer is if you listen to a tune....tap your foot you will soon discover if it is 2/4 or 4/4 and we'll keep it simple



You have listen to the tune you want to play and determine what are these guys playing. The answer is if you can tap your feet to the tune twice its 2/4 if you have to tap your feet 4 times you have 4/4



Jerry


 







No body I know of has 4 "emphasized" beats in 4/4, they (performers or dancers) Tap on 1 and 3 in 4/4 (never 1,2,3,4). If a tune is written in 2/4 or 4/4 it will still be roughly the same foot taps per minute (same Beats Per Minute). So by counting foot taps you won't be able to tell if a tune is WRITTEN in 2/4 vs 4/4 (at least for Reels anyway). In my book 2/4 and 4/4 are the same. It's just a matter of how they were chosen to be written. Most fiddle tunes are really 2/4 but most modern books prefer write them out in 4/4.



 



 



 



Edited by - mswlogo on 11/11/2015 20:09:06

Addie - Posted - 11/11/2015:  20:41:07


You're right about reels.  In old collections, 2/4 and 4/4 were used interchangeably for reels, and that practice continues.  The usual emphasis for 4/4 is Strong, weak, Medium, weak.  And 2/4 is Strong, Medium.  So what, really, is the difference? In the good old days, time signatures had associated tempos.  So the time signature gave you an idea of the tempo, before the metronome was invented.


amwildman - Posted - 11/11/2015:  21:23:38


Reels may be notated as 4/4, but I am pretty sure they are played in cut time. Notation is a convention but it does not define the way rhe tune is played. Or shouldn't, anyway....

Addie - Posted - 11/11/2015:  23:14:52


I don't know why I forgot to mention 2/2, but I did.  blush


bluesmode - Posted - 11/14/2015:  22:38:01


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 
quote:





 





  1. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a ]

        Strong feel of 2 - each divided by 2, (and by 2 again) [2x2x2]

        Reels, Breakdowns, Polkas, Hornpipes, Strathspeys, Rags, Barn Dances, Two-Steps, Schottisches, ...

        and numerous other music - are examples of this most common meter

     

  2. [ TICK-a-TOCK-a-TUCK-a ]

        Strong  feel of 3 with division of 2. [3x2]  Waltzes are one example

     

  3. [ TICK-a-tee TOCK-a-tee ]

        Strong feel of 2 - with a division of 3. [2x3] Jigs are one example

     

  4. [ TICK-a-tee TOCK-a-tee TUCK-a-tee ]

        Strong  feel of 3 - with division of 3 .[3x3]  Slip jigs are one example



    ----------------------2 variations--------------

     

  5. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a / TACK-a-tee-a TUCK-a-tee-a ]

      Essentially this is the same as #3, but combining 2 measures to make a feel of 4 as one measure

      each half still has the feel of 2 as in #3.

     

  6. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a / TACK-a-tee-a TUCK-a-tee-a ]

      Essentially this is the same as #1, but combining 2 measures to make a feel of 4 as one measure

      each half still has all the feel of 2 as in #1.




 







alaskafiddler: I enjoyed these timing/rhythm  descriptions very much. It's very easy to 'hear' the variations just by reciting them. I think I may actually play some of them, but not in a fiddle playing context, and probably more on an unconscious level. these examples also reminded me that fiddle playing can be very complicated, just as complicated as any other genre at intermediate and advanced levels. I think if I were a fiddle player, these descriptions would be very helpful in sorting things out.


fujers - Posted - 11/16/2015:  18:15:54


Well, Mr Mslogo, It seems to me that you still take lessions is that correct. I don't because I am a teacher. You have done nothing else to post an argument for me to ponder.



Every one of your post is just another argument after argument. Are there more questions than answers., My last post was just about this subject was just what it is. "Timing"



Though it is a very simple explanation but it is true. If you can count to 2 and I think you can that what comes after 2, 3 right.



What comes after 3 well it's 4. If you can count 1-2-3-4 then you will know how to count your beats. What if I were to play in 3/4 time that's 1-2-3



It does not take a genius to know these things. If you take your foot and tap it to whatever song you want to you will find that most tunes are in 2/4 or 4/4 or 3/4



Some tunes are in 6/8 or other exotic time but you already know that don't you. The question about timing is a good question because if you don't already know what it is the harder it will be to get it.



Timing for a lot of people just don't know it.....but if you already have timing you have a chance of learning this beast.



Timing you can never teach someone this weather they got it or they don't. If you have timing your journey will made your life a whole lot easier.



I suspect you have a problem with timing. I have talked to you before and I think you have a problem with timing am I correct?



I ask you. Do you have timing. Timing is not something you cannot teach it's something you already have. Jerry



Edited by - fujers on 11/16/2015 18:21:24

mswlogo - Posted - 11/16/2015:  20:07:51


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 
quote:


Originally posted by drypitstop

 


Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but how does some one determine the timeing for a tune, Like I can hear a tune and determineif it is a waltz and the timing would be 3/4 but what about other tunes..................................................................D








Not exactly sure what you are asking; the differences of meters (time signatures), or of tune types.The latter, mostly it is just via LISTENING. There are subtleties that are not conveyed from just the meter. Meter is just the perceptual frame of grouping and division of steady BEAT. AS Brian pointed out it's just 2's and 3's. Really there are just a few common meters to cover a wide variety of rhythms.





  1. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a ]

        Strong feel of 2 - each divided by 2, (and by 2 again) [2x2x2]

        Reels, Breakdowns, Polkas, Hornpipes, Strathspeys, Rags, Barn Dances, Two-Steps, Schottisches, ...

        and numerous other music - are examples of this most common meter

     

  2. [ TICK-a-TOCK-a-TUCK-a ]

        Strong  feel of 3 with division of 2. [3x2]  Waltzes are one example

     

  3. [ TICK-a-tee TOCK-a-tee ]

        Strong feel of 2 - with a division of 3. [2x3] Jigs are one example

     

  4. [ TICK-a-tee TOCK-a-tee TUCK-a-tee ]

        Strong  feel of 3 - with division of 3 .[3x3]  Slip jigs are one example



    ----------------------2 variations--------------

     

  5. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a / TACK-a-tee-a TUCK-a-tee-a ]

      Essentially this is the same as #3, but combining 2 measures to make a feel of 4 as one measure

      each half still has the feel of 2 as in #3.

     

  6. [ TICK-a-tee-a TOCK-a-tee-a / TACK-a-tee-a TUCK-a-tee-a ]

      Essentially this is the same as #1, but combining 2 measures to make a feel of 4 as one measure

      each half still has all the feel of 2 as in #1.




Notice in #1 the same meter can represent many different rhythmic feels. (similar with the other meters).  The meter is rather generic; just represents a perceptual frame; one can't really extrapolate much more than that (as polka, hornpipe, reel...) - as the rhythm differences comes from what you play on top of that, with what accents, flow, syncopations, subtle timing articulations - some more obvious than others.  Experiencing these, via LISTENING, dancing, just feeling these differences IMO is the best way to grasp them. The notational, math, formula calculations, can perhaps generally point to some aspect (like an accent shift); but can often seem to miss, or can make it quite convoluted.




(Certainly there are other uncommon meters, 5/4, 7/4, 10/8, 11/8, 8/8.. they are all easier to grasp as some combinations of 2's and 3's. They don't come up in a lot of fiddle tunes, or popular songs.)




 







This is a really nice clear post as usual. Just to add a little bit.



On #1 a Time Signature could be 2/4 4/4 or 2/2



On #2 a Time Signature could be 3/4



On #3 a Time Signature could be 6/8



On #4 a Time Signature could be 9/8



And typically one would tap their foot on everything you Capitalized. Except for Waltz's some folks tap each beat, and some tap once per measure (once per 3).



Also if you look at #1 and #3 the number of Taps per measure are the same. So just looking at "Foot Taps" is insufficient to differentiate it.



You have to listen for the rhythm between the Taps to understand the type of tune. And then even dig deeper than that to differentiate the exact genre/regional differences



But nothing you hear will tell you how it MUST be notated because there is more than one way, notably on case #1.



But there are conventions (old and new and probable genre/regionally) how they might be typically notated.



At least the dances I go to, and I go to plenty (all Contra), you'd be surprised how many experienced dancers wouldn't know the difference between a Jig and Reel.

They will comment on smoothness, bouncy, fast, flowy, slow, happy, sad, energy, etc. But anything with 2 "Steps" per measure are all lumped together in one category.

Only dancers that are FOLK musicians will know the difference. I even asked a retired Classical Music Teacher once and she looked at me like I had 2 heads when I asked her.

She could play on piano up to full tempo site reading (or sing from the written page) perfectly any folk/fiddle tune. But when they are dancing they are 99% focused on the beat they are stepping to.



I'm sure Irish Step dancers would know the difference as well as many other Traditional Dancers.

But at a "Barn Dance" or Contra you might be surprised. I'll bet more would know the difference in a Polka and Reel than a Jig and Reel.

I don't know much about square dances, but I thought I heard they typically they don't play Jigs.



 



 



 



Edited by - mswlogo on 11/16/2015 20:13:18

fiddlebut - Posted - 11/16/2015:  21:11:59


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Timing you can never teach someone







 



Hye Jerry, you are teacher, you should be able to  teach everything......!?


AZJohnB - Posted - 11/17/2015:  08:02:47



-snip------No body I know of has 4 "emphasized" beats in 4/4, they (performers or dancers) Tap on 1 and 3 in 4/4 (never 1,2,3,4). If a tune is written in 2/4 or 4/4 it will still be roughly the same foot taps per minute (same Beats Per Minute). So by counting foot taps you won't be able to tell if a tune is WRITTEN in 2/4 vs 4/4 (at least for Reels anyway). In my book 2/4 and 4/4 are the same. It's just a matter of how they were chosen to be written. Most fiddle tunes are really 2/4 but most modern books prefer write them out in 4/4.



 



 



 






Actually, traditional Scottish Strathspeys d0 have 4 strong beats per measure.  I'll be happy to email you my favorite audio example .


fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  08:25:29


Yes Henry I 'm a fiddle teacher, but I can't teach timing. I've tried to teach timing but I can't do it perhaps someone else can but I can't.

Timing is an illusive thing you either have or you don't. I can teach you a million notes but without timing all those notes don't mean nothing.

I had to turn away a couple of people and I'm sorry I had to but there timing was so off . I'm not going to spend my time trying to teach you something that they my note ever get.

I'm note sure if they will ever discover what timing is and I told them both if you find timing come on back and I'll teach you those million notes.

But don't let your timing issue deter you from fiddling just keep practicing and one day it might find you. Jerry

abinigia - Posted - 11/17/2015:  08:47:56


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

Yes Henry I 'm a fiddle teacher, but I can't teach timing.







I've got to agree with you here. I used to teach mandolin and found that there are people who just don't have timing. When they try to learn it the 'trying' part never goes away. Even some fairly good musicians don't have a very good sense of time when they're not playing with a strong backup. The worst offense is rushing the beat. After a melodic phrase ends, if there isn't background keeping a strong beat players often rush to the next phrase.


fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  09:27:10


I used to play in band that played 5 nights week and on Sundays we would have an open mic night. There was this fellow that came to sing. He had a wonderfull voice. But his timing just sucked. It wasn;t because of the band cause these were top notch players. So I don't think even a good back up track would not have helped him any. /For some reason some people have no idea of what timing is...none. I appreciate that try to sing or play but for some reason the timing just goes out the window. Not sure if he ever found timing or it found him.....strange world. Jerry

fiddlebut - Posted - 11/17/2015:  12:23:16


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 

I had to turn away a couple of people and I'm sorry I had to but there timing was so off







 



I have been teaching for nearly 25 years and I have never turned away anyone for no reason. Yes, I met people with bad timing and bad other stuff, but I never turned them away because I am a 'music teacher'. And a real 'music teacher' has many ways up his sleeve to teach all aspects of playing music. I guessed there is a vast difference between a 'fiddle/mandolin teacher' and a real 'music teacher'.....!?


fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  12:39:02


Well Henry you go ahead and teach the bad timing or no timing what so ever ones. I won't.

There's a difference between you and me. You take on all comers I don't

You will spend a lot of time trying to teach timing and I refuse to because it takes away from the students that have tempo.

I'll tell you what. The persons that don't know what timing is I'll send your way and for the persons that know what timing is send my way. I think that is fair and I'll see you at the end. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  12:52:52


Now Folks, We are not arguing just having a friendly conversation. Henry and I have been doing this forever.



So there no need to get your panty's all tangled up. I say yang and he says ying. Just a friendly conversation and one worth the admission ticket. Jerry



Edited by - fujers on 11/17/2015 12:53:56

fiddlebut - Posted - 11/17/2015:  13:02:28


Well, there you go folks, the pro fiddler can teach you a zillion notes but nothing about timing.



And he posts in a thread about timing, go figure....??



But don't be intimidated, give him a try anyhow.


fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  13:35:35


Henry, You know as well as I do it is very hard even if you could to teach timing. Timing is like I said is illusive and weather you got it or you don't.

I think timing is attainable but for some it's like you're trying to teach a you how to drive a train....It just won't happen.

I wished everyone would have timing but some reason it is illusive. I also wished that I didn't have to turn those students away but I had to.

I mean a student is student and I enjoy teaching them. But I cannot spend a lot of time trying to teach them something they my not ever get.

I still stay in touch with these two I don't forget that they just want to play. I will spend time...my time and for free...in helping them to understand what timing is and still that don't get it.

It's very hard to teach someone who has no since of time and taking them on is just a waste of my time. I am not here to teach timing I am here to teach you how to play.

So, I guess all in all I do and I guess you do too do what we can to teach those with bad timing. But is not something that is not unattainable for some.

As teachers we do our best to produce fiddlers....but some people you just can not teach. Jerry

fiddlebut - Posted - 11/17/2015:  14:01:10


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

....but some people you just can not teach. Jerry







My policy is that I can teach anyone...........





The important thing to remember is, if you can speak you already have good timing.



Can you say....''ham and cheese'' ? there you go, you have waltz timing. 



Can you say.... ''rashes and sausages'' ?  there you go, you have jig timing.



Can you say...''Liverpool, Liverpool, Liverpool'' ? there you go, you have slip jig timing...



etc, etc, etc...timing is as easy as that...........!?


fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  14:13:00


Well you go ahead and teach them how to make a sandwich. I'll do other. Jerry

mswlogo - Posted - 11/17/2015:  17:57:58


quote:

Originally posted by AZJohnB

 

-snip------No body I know of has 4 "emphasized" beats in 4/4, they (performers or dancers) Tap on 1 and 3 in 4/4 (never 1,2,3,4). If a tune is written in 2/4 or 4/4 it will still be roughly the same foot taps per minute (same Beats Per Minute). So by counting foot taps you won't be able to tell if a tune is WRITTEN in 2/4 vs 4/4 (at least for Reels anyway). In my book 2/4 and 4/4 are the same. It's just a matter of how they were chosen to be written. Most fiddle tunes are really 2/4 but most modern books prefer write them out in 4/4. 







Actually, traditional Scottish Strathspeys d0 have 4 strong beats per measure.  I'll be happy to email you my favorite audio example .







Regardless of what you consider strongly emphasized they still Typically Tap on 1 & 3 (in 4/4) or (or you can all it 1 & 2 if you like to think in 2/2 or 2/4)



Jump to around 2:25 he is not tapping 4 beats per 4/4 measure. You wouldn't be able to tell anything from his foot tap.



youtube.com/watch?v=05ZW_jpIUgk



Most Music is around 80-140 BPM. If you have to "double Tap" you'd have to tap 160-280 Taps per minute. That is too much work.



Regardless of the genre, if it's EVEN most people will tap somewhere between 80-140 BPM.



Sometimes and possibly common in some genres, people might double tap.



The point is, how people decide to tap there foot, for any even signature is really no way to learn how it's written. Or a whole lot about the music (for a simple even tap)



Now, if your talking about something like Quebec like this, it does say quite a bit about the music.



youtube.com/watch?v=cgpd3zZRpq...fShz5SRbA



P.S. I don't agree Strathpey's emphasize every beat.


fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  18:32:31


Logo, You make this sound all complicated. Either you have timing issue or you don't. It is not complicated you just roll with the flow of things.

Something tells me you don't understand how it works or you wouldn't be spending your time written about it.

Let me ask you and I mean this in a friendly tone. Do you have timing or do you not. No one that I know would discuss the subject about timing unless they don't know what it is.

You told me once before that you spend X amount of dollars on fiddle lessions. Now where has that gotten you and I can only guess from you previous post you have gotten no where.

Logo I am here to help but only if you are honest of how you play. If you have timing issues there's only so much that I can help you with and If you don't have timing issues

I can help. It seems to me that you do have timing issues, but like always having a discussion
with you will only bring an other argument. I don't mind the arguments but there is no need to.

We are here to help one another not argue. Let me try to help you in what ever you're trying to play. Sound good...Lets try it. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  19:33:36


I think your name is George isn't it or do I have you mixed up with someone else. I will not teach timing that's for you to figure out. I do work on my own time to help these people out. I really don';t know how to teach them just some basic stuff. I'm used to people who already know what timing is. I'm very sorry for the people that want to be able to play with timing. But I tell them not to let this hinder what you already know what to play...in time it may come to you or it might find you. There's a lot about fiddling that I don't even know and there is not no reason to argue with me. I am here to teach not argue. Jerry

DougD - Posted - 11/17/2015:  19:36:07


mswlogo - In your example, just before the spot you mentioned at 2:55 you can clearly see his foot tapping four times to the measure. After that I don't think its a strathspey anymore - more like a reel. Here's a better example of a strathspey with four emphasized beats per bar. Its easy to hear the difference when it goes to a reel:  youtube.com/watch?v=X6Hj1fr_6aM   I don;t know what type of tune that first one is, but it also has four emphasized beats.



Lots of swing music has four beats to the bar. Like this:  youtube.com/watch?v=SeqwPX4T4E0   And not just jazz - its used in Bluegrass too:    youtube.com/watch?v=iq86msntH6 Y   And Western Swing:  youtube.com/watch?v=z_UmmQaTmIg



All fiddle music (except Lester Young of course).



Edited by - DougD on 11/17/2015 19:45:54

mswlogo - Posted - 11/17/2015:  20:29:01


quote:

Originally posted by DougD

 

mswlogo - In your example, just before the spot you mentioned at 2:55 you can clearly see his foot tapping four times to the measure. After that I don't think its a strathspey anymore - more like a reel. Here's a better example of a strathspey with four emphasized beats per bar. Its easy to hear the difference when it goes to a reel:  youtube.com/watch?v=X6Hj1fr_6aM   I don;t know what type of tune that first one is, but it also has four emphasized beats.




Lots of swing music has four beats to the bar. Like this:  youtube.com/watch?v=SeqwPX4T4E0   And not just jazz - its used in Bluegrass too:    youtube.com/watch?v=iq86msntH6 Y   And Western Swing:  youtube.com/watch?v=z_UmmQaTmIg




All fiddle music (except Lester Young of course).







Ok, I agree. I think many strathspeys are actually played slow. So he has time to tap each beat and I agree he is, just before that mark. But note that when he picks up speed and energy going to the Reel then he taps SLOWER. Because he switched to tapping twice per measure. I did say some genres might double tap. I also think in that example what they are bowing is not emphasized on each beat. There is another instrument that he tapping too.



I think the tune before your example is a March. It often goes March, Strathspey, Reel.



I made my comments in the context of Folky/Fiddle/Dance tunes Jig/Reel/Waltz etc.



I've gone to workshops and dances with, Irish (Jigs and Reels) Breton (March, Strathspey, Reel), Old Time (Reel), Cajun (Reel).



They all tap basically the same way (usually). Except Quebec.



I'm sure there is all sort of other stuff in classical etc. even pop Jazz.



People can only tap their feet so fast, even when they are playing much faster.



My understanding of Strathspeys, I do play a few of them (taught by noted good players, one being in that first video), is it's a dotted rhythm. 1/16 followed by dotted 1/8, the longer note I consider emphasized. And it often is not even on any beat. It's a combination of 1/16 and dotted 1/8's pairs and the reverse. I don't know the details. This may be more Cape Breton thing than Scottish might be more on the beat and every beat. But the tunes I have music for the emphasis is not on the beat nor every beat. They so happen to all be more Cape Breton. There are many Strathspeys. All that makes a Strathspey is the dotted rhythm (in my book).



You gave some good examples though. But to me some way outside the scope of the Basic "Fiddle Dance Tune" which I believe is where the OP was coming from, and most folks are playing on their fiddle on this forum. That may be naive to think that way though. But it's all I ever seen discussed or posted on the forum. Even a Strathspey is pretty uncommon on this forum.



By the way on the Bill Monroe video, I'd tap my foot at half the rate of the strum same on that last tune. Just because "an" instrument hits each beat, I don't consider the "Melody" necessarily does.

 



 



Edited by - mswlogo on 11/17/2015 20:36:35

fujers - Posted - 11/17/2015:  21:32:36


Henry, What do they have to teach me. How the fiddle is played or rudiments or scaling or double and triple stops. I know how these things are played I am trying to bring things to them the things that they are missing in life.



You say that this an absurdity and I don't see these things your way. I may be a little progressive but It all comes down to simple



This last weekend I broke my acoustic fiddle and all I had to play was my electric fiddle. I had to work and work on this fiddle just to it close to where how like to play. Now listen to this tune below this is a recording and I'm trying to find tone. I had just finished working on the instrument to get it close to where I like to play.



This instrument I have never ever played before. Does this sound like someone who is not serious about fiddle playing.



I can understand that some of these folks play mandolin or banjo and they play very well and some of these folks out play me.



I know I am not god's gift to fiddle playing but I would hope that someone listened to me. I really don't care if they do or not because I have lots of folk that listen to me.



You know, I don't mean anyone any harm we are just fiddle players looking for the same thing and that's knowledge



You herd me write that I had to learn this instrument twice not just once but twice you can better believe that.



I had a couple of strokes and I had to start from ground zero. I came up from the trenches to get back to where I am today



It took to me a long time just to get what I can play today. I spent a lot of time in the wood shed and I have come close to where I used to be and I don't think I will ever get there.



But one thing I brought away from the strokes is that I can now right tunes. The tunes that you have been listening to is me after the fact.



Now with me playing this beast and it is a beast don't you think that someone could learn it once.



Timing like I said is an illusive thing, I am not sure if someone who does not have timing will not ever get it.



I'm sure that some might and that some will never achieve this. I mean you really never know.



But for me trying to get back to where ever I started from is not realistic I can truthfully say I have been there twice.



Some people write that they feel sorry for me because of whatever reason and my response to them....try playing it twice.



Let me say before I go. You folk don't understand what a stroke can do to you and perhaps some of you do.



As you get older the chances increase. For some of you it ain't nothing but a thing.....for some of us it takes you lively hood away.



I stood strong and I re learned what fiddle is....for some of you not.



I live with the new me now....the old me is gone and the old me would have never stopped by this place...I would just be playing. Jerry



Edited by - fujers on 11/17/2015 21:33:22


DougD - Posted - 11/18/2015:  06:51:26


mswlogo - Here's one more example from Buddy MacMaster where you can clearly hear the four beats to the bar:   youtube.com/watch?v=yGWx9aWQWJA



My point is just that AzJohnB was quite correct when he said that strathspeys have four emphasized beats. He also said "traditional Scottish strathspeys" and I don't think the YouTube you posted is an example of that. The title of that YouTube also may be misleading - I think it refers to a particular concert, or the name of the group, rather than the style of tunes they're playing in that particular clip.



Yes, some of the examples I gave are outside the scope of the "Basic 'Fiddle Dance Tune'" but there's a lot more to music than that. Personally I enjoy and sometimes play a lot of stuff from Bach to Bebop (well I don't really play much Bebop). My last theater job was playing kind of imitation Flamenco guitar for a production of  "Man of La Mancha." After about 30 performances I was starting to get the hang of some of those time signatures.



If you want to learn about strathspeys you might explore this website devoted to J. Scott Skinner, the "Strathspey King"   abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/    Here's his original notation for "The Laird of Drumblair"   abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/displa...D=JSS0081    You can see the straight quarter notes in the left hand accompaniment. Also playing styles change over time. In Skinner's time even reels were played much more "four to the bar,," like his recording of "Fairy Dance"   abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/music/cd108e.mp3



Part of that is the difference between Scottish and American music, as well as changing times and tastes. Here's that same tune once it got to SW Virginia not too many years later:  youtube.com/watch?v=L0Y_Lv6ULxw



Edited by - DougD on 11/18/2015 06:55:57

Addie - Posted - 11/19/2015:  14:49:18


Strathspeys are STRONG weak Medium weak.  Some people only tap their foot on one and three, but still make it sound like a strathspey.  A friend of mine analyzed the playing of several world class players, and discovered that they were actually giving extra time to one and three, but especially one.  There are some Scottish 4/4 tunes that are played STRONG weak weak Medium, but that's beyond this discussion. 



Scottish hornpipes have a strong "back beat" that is not tapped, but I was taught to flex the knee of the non-tapping leg to get the right feel.



 


Addie - Posted - 11/19/2015:  14:56:10


BTW, Cape Breton (not to be confused with Breton) is typically "bouncier" than most Scottish music.  Think of a dance floor with a lot of spring in it.  That's because (according to me) their main dances are step dances rather than the Scottish reels and Strathspeys that involve more traveling in the traveling steps.  It's a horizontal vs vertical movement thing.


Addie - Posted - 11/19/2015:  15:03:27


And finally... many years ago, my teacher caught me beating strathspeys on one and three.  He casually asked if I realised that I was "half beating" the tune.  Of course I said "oh, yes, to get the right emphasis... " (while turning red in the face).  I rarely "half beat" a strathspey now, and never without recalling my lie.  blush


mswlogo - Posted - 11/20/2015:  17:32:33


quote:

Originally posted by Addie

 

And finally... many years ago, my teacher caught me beating strathspeys on one and three.  He casually asked if I realised that I was "half beating" the tune.  Of course I said "oh, yes, to get the right emphasis... " (while turning red in the face).  I rarely "half beat" a strathspey now, and never without recalling my lie.  blush







I've seen the Strong weak Medium weak referenced a lot. As well as all 4 beats being strong.



But isn't "Strong weak Medium weak" "half beating" it?



I thought strathspeys (the melody) varies with the tune over which beats end up being emphasized (regardless of the underlying rhythm/groove).



 


Addie - Posted - 11/20/2015:  18:30:56


You might get 4-strong in Cape Breton.  Might.



SwMw is four beats.  



Melody always varies with the tune.  smiley



i think you mean the beat may begin on a short note.  If you take the notes in pairs, a flag-dot or a dot-flag can have a strong emphasis.  In fact, many players (within the tradition) change the dotting to their taste, or for the repeat.  But a Strathspey is always SwMw in Scottish fiddling.  Outside of the tradition, people either don't know, or want to do their own thing.  



 


mswlogo - Posted - 11/20/2015:  20:00:45


quote:

Originally posted by Addie

 

You might get 4-strong in Cape Breton.  Might.




SwMw is four beats.  




Melody always varies with the tune.  smiley




i think you mean the beat may begin on a short note.  If you take the notes in pairs, a flag-dot or a dot-flag can have a strong emphasis.  In fact, many players (within the tradition) change the dotting to their taste, or for the repeat.  But a Strathspey is always SwMw in Scottish fiddling.  Outside of the tradition, people either don't know, or want to do their own thing.  




 







Sorry, I meant to say. The Melody varies what beats to emphasize. Yes, you did clear up a misunderstanding, thanks.



I forget now where I heard it recently, might have been at fiddle hell. That some parts of the tune an artist may play with the dotting. But other parts the artist does not. Sort of unwritten rules.



 


Addie - Posted - 11/21/2015:  10:22:00


I think that's something else again.  For Scottish, most note pairs are played like they are double dotted and flagged, but you can ease up on that for phrase endings.



If you look up the early printed versions of tunes, from the Gows, for example, you'll see very different dotting from modern versions, and undotted eighth note pairs for phrase endings.


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