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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Is every note supposed to ressonate?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/42701

bitshift - Posted - 10/24/2015:  10:41:41


I have a very old violin and when I manage to hit the notes right on (as measured by my tuner app on my phone) some notes really resonate.  Others not so much.



Are all notes when hit perfectly supposed to resonate?



 

amwildman - Posted - 10/24/2015:  11:07:29


Some more than others.  These are due to sympathetic vibrations with other strings, or even frequencies that make the body of the violin resonate as well.  Fingered D, G, and A notes are especially vibrant because of the other strings vibrating.  My last fiddle really lit up on the B and C on the A string. 



It's a good sign that 1) you are perceiving these vibrations 2) that your fiddle is good enough to resonate well on these notes.

george crighton - Posted - 10/24/2015:  15:22:14


The notes that should resonate on the violin are fingered G's, D's, A's and E's. That is because of the sympathetic vibration of the open G, D, A, and E strings. You should hear a ringing tone, in the first position, when you play the following:

1st finger on the G string (A)
1st finger on the D string (E) and 3rd finger on the D string (G) BTW the G on the D string is the most resonate note on the violin.
3rd finger on the A string (D)
2nd finger on the E string (G) and 3rd finger on the E string (A)

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 10/24/2015:  16:05:21


I personally don't think that having some notes resonate more than others is a good thing.  I would say that a tweak to the bridge, bridge placement, sound post, sound post placement, afterlength, etc, as well as checking all the seams for solid joints is in order.  I've always been able to remove at least 80-90% of that sort of sound, by working with these things.  Good Luck!!



As an after thought, how old are the strings?  If they're old, new strings might help too.  Even a bow with uneven rosin across the hair, might appear to cause such a thing.



Lots of little things to try, but I would say to the original question, yes, that's the hope and goal.

amwildman - Posted - 10/24/2015:  16:18:42


I think you are misunderstanding.  OP seems to be referring to natural sympathetic vibrations, which are indisputable and not able to be changed by a bridge tweak.  Laws of physics and all that.  Things that are out of balance should be adjusted, yes, but not normal resonances.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 10/24/2015:  16:33:38


You're probably right amwildman.  I regularly do misinterpret things, but the OP's post made me think of several fiddles I've owned that were very uneven in tone and resonance when I first got them.  Several have had certain tones that just shoot through my head( it's called recruitment, I think) and are really annoying, so I have worked long and hard with them to even out the tone and those frequencies that were bothering me.  Just in case that's the problem here, then my first post makes sense, if not then in my best Gilda Radner............never mind. LOL

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/25/2015:  07:42:25


The sympathetic vibrations would indicate you're playing those notes in tune - a good thing.

FiddleBas - Posted - 10/25/2015:  08:13:03


As a corollary, I think this is in part why I find the Key of B challenging (in addition to the fingerstrechiness of it):  no notes really ring out.

bluesmode - Posted - 10/26/2015:  01:31:47


I tend to agree with bandsmcnamar. I like evenness in a violin and both my fiddles are very even. some of the notes listed above may resonate slightly more, but over all every note resonates, but with Focus. I also think Focus is very important. I do not like a grainy, fuzzy sound at all.



If a few or several notes around the fingerboard resonate or vibrate noticeably more than others (my Luthier calls them 'hot spots') I don't think that's a good thing at all.



in fact, in drives me nuts. You know where the notes are and when you hit them they are going to stand out more than the others. I've traded fiddles off because certain notes were resonating too much, and nothing in the way of adjustment could be done about it.



Like I said, I like evenness in a violin.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/26/2015:  15:31:26


There are basic resonance involved with he top and the body of instruments (actually all parts of the instrument that vibrates).  Certain harmonic frequency nodes line up,  respond easier than others. (some create noticeable wolf tone). Other nodes might seem to cancel, make dead notes.



Ideal is it's all even. However it is a very, very complex task to build an instrument to do that.  Some instruments are much more even.. probably mostly due to the skill of the maker, in carving the top and back, and design. (and probably have a price that reflects that as well). The bridge can be tuned, to perhaps deal with some of that. Different strings sometimes might help to a degree.





 

bluesmode - Posted - 10/26/2015:  20:09:15


AlaskaFiddler: yes, I agree with what you say. But I got lucky. To make the story real short, I left my old German in the busking parking lot last March and got it back about 2 months ago. But a couple of days after I 'lost' it, I found a fairly inexpensive China fiddle $1250.00 Canadian. I wouldn't even have looked at a fiddle like this normally. It was strung with Dominants and the G was really boomy and the D weak, but it was fairly warm, which I prefer over bright, So I took it, was desperate and my anxiety disorder was going thru the roof. Anyways, I tried several different sets and combo's of strings, and finally arrived at what I least would expect....Pirastro ViolinO's, complete set including the E. After only a couple of days playing, that china fiddle embraced those ViolinO's like long lost lovers. The G & D evened out, and the A & E blended right in. Even Steven, no wolf notes or even puppy barks..... it was like a miracle!!



The fiddle I got back is a Louie Lowendal, made in Berlin, 1893. In order to get it even, with the sound I wanted, after much experimentation... it needs a Peter Infeld (PI 1OO'S) G, an Evah Gold D, a ViolinO A and a Prelude E. It would seem like an unlikely combination... but even the Classical girl down at the violin shop commented that it was very even, (I didn't bring up the subject). She then looked at the strings and said " what do you have on here?"  So, same thing, even and no 'hot spots'



Like I said at the top...I got lucky. 


Edited by - bluesmode on 10/26/2015 20:11:13

Learner - Posted - 12/05/2015:  14:04:29


quote:


Originally posted by FiddleBas

 

As a corollary, I think this is in part why I find the Key of B challenging (in addition to the fingerstrechiness of it):  no notes really ring out.







In the key of B, the fingered 4th (E) on the A string can cause the open E to ring nicely, if you're careful not to mute the open E.



 



 



 



 


mswlogo - Posted - 12/05/2015:  14:32:49


quote:

Originally posted by Learner

 
quote:

 

Originally posted by FiddleBas

As a corollary, I think this is in part why I find the Key of B challenging (in addition to the fingerstrechiness of it):  no notes really ring out.


 



 

In the key of B, the fingered 4th (E) on the A string can cause the open E to ring nicely, if you're careful not to mute the open E.


 




4th finger E on A string will ring E string in other keys too :)



You can hear the contribution of the open E by purposely muting it and hearing the difference.



 



 

mad baloney - Posted - 12/06/2015:  09:52:20


Unsions, octaves, fifths, fourths,  and sometimes thirds and sixths can resonate, roughly in that order - it depends on the fiddle, some ring like a bell, others not so much - that being said, every fiddle should ring octaves & unisons and 4ths & 5th - otherwise it's either a plank or needs serious set-up.

abinigia - Posted - 12/06/2015:  11:40:31


A fiddle shouldn't resonate differently at different intervals except in frequency, or else you mean in relation to open strings which will respond sympathetically. Other than that, the fiddle doesn't know it is playing an interval of an open string. I am not really sure what you mean by "resonating" either, but I'm thinking maybe volume? In overall playing only the varying frequency should be obvious. To the extent the fiddle responds very differently to different notes it is a flaw in the fiddle or in the setup.

bluesmode - Posted - 12/07/2015:  02:16:05


quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Ideal is it's all even. However it is a very, very complex task to build an instrument to do that.  Some instruments are much more even.. probably mostly due to the skill of the maker, in carving the top and back, and design. (and probably have a price that reflects that as well). The bridge can be tuned, to perhaps deal with some of that. Different strings sometimes might help to a degree.






 







I'm sticking with what alaskafiddler said. There have been several posts saying sympathetic vibration is a good thing. I don't think so. On one fiddle I had, when I played the D note on the A string, the open D vibrated so much that you could see it vibrating vigorously, and that caused the fingered D note on the A string to sound deeper, hollower and uneven. It had other 'hot spots' also. I traded it off because of this.



 



Shouldn't every note resonate, but resonate evenly like Alska was saying? If the notes did not resonate, you would have a very THIN sounding fiddle. Some fiddles have boomy open strings (too much resonation?) things sound ok  running the fingered notes down until you hit the open string and then.... Boom.



 



amwildman said: "My last fiddle really lit up on the B and C on the A string". I believe this it what my Luthier calls 'hot spots'.



Personally, these kind of notes drive me nuts. I know where they are lurking, just waiting to be hit on a scale run or whatever..... waiting to jump out at you like the boogey man.



 



... did I mention that I like evenness?smiley 

bluesmode - Posted - 12/07/2015:  02:24:33


quote:

Originally posted by abinigia

 I am not really sure what you mean by "resonating" either, but I'm thinking maybe volume? In overall playing only the varying frequency should be obvious. To the extent the fiddle responds very differently to different notes it is a flaw in the fiddle or in the setup.  




 



I did read abinigia's post before posting mine, and I am talking about "resonating" as very noticeable differences in volume and tone. If this is not what the OP means, then my point is moot, and I guess Alaska's is also.



 

mad baloney - Posted - 12/08/2015:  07:38:14


Whether you like it or not, it's the way of the universe - even two cables on a bridge will ring sympathetically with each other f they are at the same tension. Good fiddles will do it more because they are better at vibrating, dead fiddles with a 1" top will do it less, but even a chinese plank for $50 from ebay will ring unisons.

abinigia - Posted - 12/08/2015:  09:37:16


quote:

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

Whether you like it or not, it's the way of the universe - even two cables on a bridge will ring sympathetically with each other f they are at the same tension. Good fiddles will do it more because they are better at vibrating, dead fiddles with a 1" top will do it less, but even a chinese plank for $50 from ebay will ring unisons.







I'm not sure who you're replying to but, yes, unison pitches will respond. Strings at the same tension won't necessarily respond if they are different gages or stopped in different places, however. I'm not sure what point is trying to be made. Don't we all agree that a fiddle is best when its response is as even as can be?

mad baloney - Posted - 12/08/2015:  11:36:08


Even between strings yes, but a resonant fiddle is a good thing - unless you like quiet, dead, dull fiddles with a choked tone.

abinigia - Posted - 12/08/2015:  14:26:08


quote:

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

Even between strings yes, but a resonant fiddle is a good thing - unless you like quiet, dead, dull fiddles with a choked tone.







Got you, and I agree.

bluesmode - Posted - 12/08/2015:  21:47:11


quote:

Originally posted by abinigigia


 Don't we all agree that a fiddle is best when its response is as even as can be?




also, mad baloney also said "even between strings yes.....



 



I was talking about evenness  from one note to the next over all four strings!  I will tolerate a slight difference in resonation from a few notes, but I will not tolerate what I've been calling 'hot spots' from certain notes. Both my fiddles resonate just fine from note to note, but evenly..... the whole violin 'resonates' does it not? maybe the problem here is the definition of resonate. The OP's question was 'is every note supposed to resonate?' but isn't there a sliding scale from over-resonation / unevenness to wolf tones? I guess this would be an exaggeration, but just trying to make my point.  


Edited by - bluesmode on 12/08/2015 22:02:23

Joel Glassman - Posted - 12/15/2015:  12:25:53


I would want to get the opinion of an expert if things sound "not quite right". Could be a very good player or a repair shop.
It may cost money but probably not much.

Fiddlemaker5224 - Posted - 12/15/2015:  14:38:16


In my humble opinion as a violin and fiddle maker. All the notes on the fiddle will vibrate at a certain rate. Take for instance the "A" string is determined to be at 440hz. This invariably causes other strings and modes on the instrument to vibrate. Some will be in different modes. The fact still remains, that the violin / fiddle is an machine that produces vibrations, in turn causing pressure waves to propagate from the instrument. When these pressure waves reach our ear they are interpreted as sound. If the instrument is a good one you can check just by talking to it. Hold the instrument by the lower bouts with both hands, then ask it how it sounds. You should feel the vibration of the top and back plates. If you do not then you have a dead instrument. To better understand the tonal quality of the instruments, I recommend that you obtain a copy of “The Acoustical Systems of Stradivarius and Other Cremona Makers” Isaak Vigdorchik, About Face Press, Westbury, New York. Then watch a video on YouTube on Jack Fry's method. youtube.com/watch?v=c8-rOvWeV8k (not sure how to make a link.).

blonde girl - Posted - 02/06/2016:  13:28:18


Hello friend,
I would say so. Give Jacqueline du Pre' a listen.She was the great British cellist who played with incredible beauty.
Regards,'
Jan

TuneWeaver - Posted - 06/08/2016:  05:15:43


quote:

Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

In my humble opinion as a violin and fiddle maker. All the notes on the fiddle will vibrate at a certain rate. Take for instance the "A" string is determined to be at 440hz. This invariably causes other strings and modes on the instrument to vibrate. Some will be in different modes. The fact still remains, that the violin / fiddle is an machine that produces vibrations, in turn causing pressure waves to propagate from the instrument. When these pressure waves reach our ear they are interpreted as sound. If the instrument is a good one you can check just by talking to it. Hold the instrument by the lower bouts with both hands, then ask it how it sounds. You should feel the vibration of the top and back plates. If you do not then you have a dead instrument. To better understand the tonal quality of the instruments, I recommend that you obtain a copy of “The Acoustical Systems of Stradivarius and Other Cremona Makers” Isaak Vigdorchik, About Face Press, Westbury, New York. Then watch a video on YouTube on Jack Fry's method. youtube.com/watch?v=c8-rOvWeV8k (not sure how to make a link.).







youtube.com/watch?v=c8-rOvWeV8k



To make a link 'active',  first 'copy' the link and then look at the menu at the top of the response page.  See that orange happy face? Well, just to the right of it is a blue thingy that will say 'link' if you hold your cursor on it.. Click on that. It opens  a bar where you can 'paste' the link..

bluesmode - Posted - 06/10/2016:  20:19:47


more on copying links.... I recently 'nailed down' the local computer genius, to teach me how to do it. He said Hi-lite the u-tube address with one click and then hit ctrl C, then open a new tab with an Icon on the top line that looks like a file folder, and then go to your web- site, start the post, and any time you hit ctrl V, the link will appear.

I recently posted a u-tube over on V.com. They require it to be embedded with the V.com code/address or whatever it is. I emailed the boss and asked her for a little more clarification....Lo and Behold, it appeared not just as a link, but the u-tube starting picture, ready to hit the Play.

Ain't computers wonderful.... wonderful when you can get them to do what you want them to do!

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/11/2016:  06:25:14


quote:
Originally posted by Lee M

quote:

Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

In my humble opinion as a violin and fiddle maker. All the notes on the fiddle will vibrate at a certain rate. Take for instance the "A" string is determined to be at 440hz. This invariably causes other strings and modes on the instrument to vibrate. Some will be in different modes. The fact still remains, that the violin / fiddle is an machine that produces vibrations, in turn causing pressure waves to propagate from the instrument. When these pressure waves reach our ear they are interpreted as sound. If the instrument is a good one you can check just by talking to it. Hold the instrument by the lower bouts with both hands, then ask it how it sounds. You should feel the vibration of the top and back plates. If you do not then you have a dead instrument. To better understand the tonal quality of the instruments, I recommend that you obtain a copy of “The Acoustical Systems of Stradivarius and Other Cremona Makers” Isaak Vigdorchik, About Face Press, Westbury, New York. Then watch a video on YouTube on Jack Fry's method. youtube.com/watch?v=c8-rOvWeV8k (not sure how to make a link.).







youtube.com/watch?v=c8-rOvWeV8k



To make a link 'active',  first 'copy' the link and then look at the menu at the top of the response page.  See that orange happy face? Well, just to the right of it is a blue thingy that will say 'link' if you hold your cursor on it.. Click on that. It opens  a bar where you can 'paste' the link..





IF you're using an android phone (can't speak for the i-things), then you get a mobile 'friendly' version where none of that stuff appears. Instead you just get a generic reply box and there is no way to make the link active without jumping through hoops and changing the view to full site thus rendering your mobile web experience less than desirable (not that the mobile version is all that convenient with its microscopic fonts).
If I'm on my phone, i just paste the link and maybe some kind soul will activate it.

fujers - Posted - 06/12/2016:  20:27:39


I don't know about sympathetic notes I 'm just an old country boy and not sure what you say. I will tell you this. If there is a thing called sympathetic notes you will have to have a great ear to hear them.



Be sides if I hit an A natural any where on the strings then thats what I want to hear and note any underling notes.



The same with double stops the two notes that I hit is all I want to hear. Now, I guess the better fiddle that you play would and can hear sympathetic notes but I've never heard them. Back again to old country boy.



I wish someone could help me understand more for I don't know the difference between the two.



If conductor only wanted to hear a G note at the end of a performance. What should you play..a G note and thats all.



Do you mean how the fiddle just vibrates on it's on accord..I don't understand. Jerry

Swaffles - Posted - 06/15/2016:  19:18:41


An example of a sympathetic note:



Let's say you play a really loud A on the E string. On a good violin, sometimes (although not every time), you might sometimes cause the open A string to vibrate a bit. Since it's an open string, it's already "stopped" at a certain note, and it can react to the higher A that you are playing since they are the same pitch. I'm not sure about the science behind it. Another example, I once had a room full of guitars that I would sometimes play violin in. If I ever played an E or a D, or any note that would also correspond to any open string on the Guitar, it would cause all of the guitars to vibrate their open strings. It's a really cool effect.



Then there are overtones, which are other sounds which are hard to hear but nonetheless actually help make the instrument have the tone it has. If you play a double stop realllllly in tune, you'll hear a shimmering effect-this is when you know you've got it really in tune since it causes the overtones to come out. The difference between a double stop that is close but not perfect, and one that is RIGHT on the money is if you can hear that shimmering sound-those are the overtones.


Edited by - Swaffles on 06/15/2016 19:19:34

fujers - Posted - 06/15/2016:  21:20:57


I understand that do you hear the same lets say in Eb or Ab. These keys don't have many open notes or if any.



 

Swaffles - Posted - 06/19/2016:  16:41:15


sorry, didn't see your response.

Yeah, unless a string is being stopped at one of those notes or tuned to it, I doubt you'd get any sympathetic vibrations. Maybe if your fiddle (or a nearby guitar) is tuned down a bit or perhaps you're playing with a piano nearby and the room is pretty live.

bluesmode - Posted - 06/19/2016:  22:15:39


quote:

Originally posted by fujers

 >>Eb or Ab. These keys don't have many open notes<<




 







no, not many, but Eb would have an open G & D.....Ab just an open G



I've already put my 2 cents in about should every note resonate. So I'll go for 3 cents. A few times in this thread I've heard 'a Good Fiddle' should have sympathetic notes etc. I disagree. I've passed on fiddles that have those things, because in general I think they lack focus. I don't want some notes overpowering other notes. I want eveness. Both my fiddles are very even, no 'hot spots'. But all my notes resonate, otherwise there would be no sound coming from the instruments.!?



Maybe I should look up the definition of resonate?



 


Edited by - bluesmode on 06/19/2016 22:17:16

Swaffles - Posted - 06/23/2016:  19:18:05


Well, I agree that you don't want some notes to stick way out more than others, but sympathetic vibrations, at least the way I described them, should happen on any quality instrument...that's just how the sound works. But I have a friend who has a cello...it's a nice cello, but for some reason the low F sharp projects A LOT more than all the notes around it. That's not a good thing at all. You absolutely do want evenness. Sympathetic vibrations aren't really the same as how the notes resonant in the body of the instrument.

fujers - Posted - 06/23/2016:  20:44:28




Like you are not likely to get sympathetic notes playing in Ab. There are not unison notes in this key. If you did hear sym it would mostly be the actual harmonies of that note 

stewart1886 - Posted - 06/24/2016:  09:09:19


 



The following guidance is helpful in the 1st position :-



3rd finger on E string will resonate the adjacent A string.



                      A                                                    D



                      D                                                    G





Of course in 3rd position the first finger on the E string will resonate the adjacent A string etc for the A and D strings.





Further again in the 1st position the 4th finger on the G string will resonate the adjacent D string.



And so on for the A and E strings.



So that is 2 fingers to find 8 notes in tune always assuming all 4 strings are in tune.





Hope this helps.


Edited by - stewart1886 on 06/24/2016 09:12:22

fujers - Posted - 06/24/2016:  13:46:53


Well, I agree with what that other fellow said...what ever he said 

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