Tobus - Posted - 08/14/2015:  14:19:06

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

You know what I think. I think you put to much into learning how theory works.



You should only be learning your basic keys. Like A, G, D, E the same keys that are naturally found on the fiddle That theory stuff can come later.



If it were me I would study the basic foundation of these keys and explore what other keys go with it. Like 1,4,5



The fiddle is all ready set up for you to figure this stuff out....all you have to do is look



That's what I think. Jerry

 

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Isn't that a bit like saying it's easy to become a car mechanic because the engine is put together already set up for you to figure out, and all you have to do is look?

buckhenry - Posted - 08/14/2015:  17:03:13

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlemn

However, it's really embarrassing going to workshops and having no idea what they're talking about.

 

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I think they maybe talking about the notes to play in a key ie, sharps or flats and maybe the modes in these keys. And maybe the chord progressions, depending on the style of music. And maybe some info on rhythms, that would be about it. But give us an example of what they talk about and we could an answer in detail....?  

Chops Chomper - Posted - 08/14/2015:  20:49:54

Well I guess so. You have to figure out the mechanics before you can drive. The simple things stick with us the harder things are harder to remember. If you take and build up from the bottom up you have a deeper understanding of how things work. Like car mechanics they had to learn most of what they know from the ground up. But it takes time to understand what it is you took out or put in.

Same with fiddle. The more you understand about the instrument the better off you are. I think if we spent more time on just learning the basic's everything will become clearer to you.

Besides, If you start your journey in the middle of the road you've left something behind. Jerry

Brent Hudson - Posted - 02/11/2016:  07:54:23

There's a lot of nomenclature to learn. But, even knowing the nomenclature, talking about theory is confusing, almost by necessity. Start with the obvious. Things got a lot clearer for me when I noticed that knowing which key we're in requires 2 pieces of information:

1) the MODE that the tune we're playing was written in. -- NOW we know the sequence of half step and whole step (the scale mode) the tune is using.

But we don't know where to start and end the sequence, until we know:

2) the Key Signature the tune was written in. -- NOW we know which notes we're sharping (or flatting), and which are "natural." Those notes only occur in

alphabetical order (sticking with the obvious). So, when you try to superimpose your modal sequence over the series of notes designated by the

key signature, you see it only indexes, or matches up exactly, in one place. The first note in the scale is the note name of our key; add the name of the

mode, and we have the name of the key we're in.

For example: the "natural" or Aeolian minor modal sequence only indexes with the "one sharp" key signature when the scale starts and ends on the note, E natural. Therefore, the signature of the key of E-minor Aeolian is one sharp. (We just call it "E-minor"). In the same key signature, one sharp, the major scale modal sequence starts and ends on G natural, so one sharp is also the key signature for the key of G major. The name for the major mode is "Ionian," so G major can also be called G Ionian.

(Just to make sure they sound smart, experts have another name for the key built on E natural in one sharp: they say that E is the "relative minor of G major." The relative minor is the key that starts an interval of a minor third -- three half-steps -- below the major key.)

Because there is a different scale mode starting and ending on every note in the key signature, one sharp is also the key signature of the keys of A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, and F# Lochrian. (There are alternate names for these modes) These same seven scale modes therefore can and do start on any note, depending on key signature. As a practical matter, only the major, Aeolian minor, Dorian minor, Phrygian, and Mixolydian modes are likely to be found in Western music. --- if, that is, you include Flamenco (which has Middle Eastern roots), much of which is composed in the Phrygian mode, as being Western music.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/13/2016:  20:16:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Brent Hudson

 

--- if, that is, you include Flamenco (which has Middle Eastern roots), much of which is composed in the Phrygian mode, as being Western music.











 

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To the best of my knowledge, and speaking in general terms, Phrygian is the only mode that can be played over both a major and minor chord. Playing it over a major gives it that Spanish quality, playing it over a minor branches it off to another form of "western" music.....Heavy Metal, dark rock etc. 

Swing - Posted - 02/14/2016:  16:15:35

Hey, Bluesmode... I have to thank you... you posted the bebop scale in G a while back... what fun... it has opened a few doors for me (musically speaking) now to continue on my journey.



Play Happy



Swing

bluesmode - Posted - 02/14/2016:  17:10:35

@swing: yes, they are fun. I hope you are doing both the dom7 and the maj bop scales? both have there own merits and slightly different flavors me thinks. I found it a bit tricky to sort them out, one against the other, but getting better at it.

for me, they are easiest/best in G & A coz you can get 2 octaves out of them. with other keys, it seems you have to go above or below the root/octave to extend them, which is more tricky, for me anyways.

very glad you you liked it.

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/17/2016:  20:20:58

Dave post some more. I find them very helpful. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/17/2016:  21:55:17

Bebop Dorian... G A Bb B C D E F

Bebop Melodic Minor.... G A Bb C D Eb E F+ ( + = sharp )

Bebop Harmonic Minor....G A Bb C D Eb F F+

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/17/2016:  22:06:29

The scales are scales Henry. Now put some meat on those bones. Can you post just as Dave has usable scales or licks pertaining to bebop. Write them as Dave has....

Ab G A Bb that sort of thing. If you write them I will to.... but only if you write them. This ought to be fun Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/18/2016:  01:41:46

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

The scales are scales Henry. Now put some meat on those bones. Can you post just as Dave has usable scales or licks pertaining to bebop. Write them as Dave has....

Ab G A Bb that sort of thing. If you write them I will to.... but only if you write them. This ought to be fun Jerry

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Say what...? You don't make any sense man....?

bluesmode - Posted - 02/18/2016:  21:21:22

Jerry: all I did was to list the scale notes in G for Dom7 bebop ascending, and Maj bebop descending. Can't see as I put any meat on them, or did anything different than Henry has done with these 3 other bebop scales.

I think you are thinking of that jazzy lick I sent you in exchange for the one you sent me.

that was in D, starting on the major 3rd....3, 5, b7, 9, #11, 13, resolve back to A

so... F#, A, C, E, Ab, B, A

This little lick would be completely different than the 8 note bebop scales that we've been talking about.

Edited by - bluesmode on 02/18/2016 21:36:44

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/18/2016:  21:44:50

Dave, What I mean is not just playing scales...but to put some meat on the scales...in other words putting something up that you actually play. Scales are scales, but until you put some meat on those bones...they are just scales.

I can show you how to play western swing/jazz licks and they are about the same as bebop. Now, I don't want to show you how I play if it lands on deaf ears. If you are serious I can show you lots.

Jerry 

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/18/2016:  22:04:04

Henry, It make perfect since to me....have a cup of coffee. We are both players right? Instead of just talking about the fiddle...why don't we show then how fiddling is done.

Look you're and old man....at least thats what your picture says....you're old and grey... bet you're going to have a leg fall of soon...yeeeehaaa.

I mean, I think we two could have a serious look about playing fiddle. If anyone would want to know more about fiddling they should just keep on reading the book 

Dave seems to serious about learning and thats the peopkle we want...the seriuos. If we can put up licks that not just Dave could use but every one that can read the alphabit it mat work.

The licks must be by...AAA/CCCC  that kind of stuff if it ain't I can't read them. Or am I just pissing in the wind...Let me know. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/18/2016:  22:13:06

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlechops

Bebop Dorian... G A Bb B C D E F

Bebop Melodic Minor.... G A Bb C D Eb E F+ ( + = sharp )

Bebop Harmonic Minor....G A Bb C D Eb F F+

 

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Henry: I know I've got these 3 listed somewhere...but just sitting playing thru them, I think I could use the harmonic minor to go with a min blues sc. or min pent. Not sure what I might do with the other 2. the Dorian should be obvious, but not hearing it at this point.

anyways, these 3 plus the two I listed makes 5 bebop scales. as far as I can see, it's the 3 note chromatic sequence that makes these 8 note bebop scales, and they occur in 5 different places, for the 5 scales. Would you say this is correct?

pretty doggone hard to keep them all straight !!

What do you think of that little lick I sent Jerry? got that from a Matt Glazer dvd. You prolly do that one without even thinking about it?

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/18/2016:  22:30:25

But Dave, Like I said you have to put some meat on it. Like I also said, Scales are just scales until you know how to use them.

Don't waste your time trying to under stand how each scale works. Just play the scale and find all the interesting things that just one scale brings to ya

bluesmode - Posted - 02/18/2016:  22:39:22

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

Dave, What I mean is not just playing scales...but to put some meat on the scales...in other words putting something up that you actually play. Scales are scales, but until you put some meat on those bones...they are just scales.

I can show you how to play western swing/jazz licks and they are about the same as bebop. Now, I don't want to show you how I play if it lands on deaf ears. If you are serious I can show you lots.

Jerry 

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Yup, I'm sure you could teach me some licks, and maybe I could teach you some. but I've found that it's best for me to take a bit of theory here and there and make it my own. and yes, we all know that just playing scales doesn't cut it, but it's taking those scales and mixing them up and flowing in and out of different scales, and mixing them up.... that what turns the scales into music, right?

as for western swing, I don't specialize in it. I can swing along with a major blues scale and major pents, but there aint no western swing band around here, and even if there was, I'm sure I couldn't cut it with them.

at this point in my life, I accompany acoustic guitars playing blues, folk, country, (besides busking spring summer & fall) and if I want something a bit more challenging, I put the chord changes into my sequencer, just for my own pleasure, and that would be mostly Phrygian and Lydian backgrounds, coz that's where I get my kicks.

But I think we're all serious players here, otherwise we wouldn't be yacking about it all the time. hopefully not letting it cut into practice and playing time too much, yes?  

bluesmode - Posted - 02/18/2016:  22:47:17

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesmode

 

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

Dave, What I mean is not just playing scales...but to put some meat on the scales...in other words putting something up that you actually play. Scales are scales, but until you put some meat on those bones...they are just scales.

I can show you how to play western swing/jazz licks and they are about the same as bebop. Now, I don't want to show you how I play if it lands on deaf ears. If you are serious I can show you lots.

Jerry 

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Yup, I'm sure you could teach me some licks, and maybe I could teach you some. but I've found that it's best for me to take a bit of theory here and there and make it my own. and yes, we all know that just playing scales doesn't cut it, but it's taking those scales and mixing them up and flowing in and out of different scales, and mixing them up.... that what turns the scales into music, right?

as for western swing, I don't specialize in it. I can swing along with a major blues scale and major pents, but there aint no western swing band around here, and even if there was, I'm sure I couldn't cut it with them.

at this point in my life, I accompany acoustic guitars playing blues, folk, country, (besides busking spring summer & fall) and if I want something a bit more challenging, I put the chord changes into my sequencer, just for my own pleasure, and that would be mostly Phrygian and Lydian backgrounds, coz that's where I get my kicks.

But I think we're all serious players here, otherwise we wouldn't be yacking about it all the time. hopefully not letting it cut into practice and playing time too much, yes?  

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PS: I don't consider it a waste of time understanding theory. It's understanding theory that enables me to jam almost any form of popular, and contemporary music.

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/18/2016:  22:50:52

Thats ok Dave, You're right we are just fiddler's here. I wish you the best in your endeavor. Do me a favor post some more of your bebop licks. I for one appreciate them and god knows who else. See ya brother. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/18/2016:  23:16:20

.... are you sure you wouldn't rather learn a Dark Phrygian background using F maj scale fragments and  mixing up Emin7b5 arpeggios along with Bbmaj7 & Fmaj7 arpeggios. I could teach you!  

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/19/2016:  08:33:33

Im game

bluesmode - Posted - 02/19/2016:  17:42:06

Jerry: do you have any way to create a phrygian background? without a decent phrygian chord progression, it would be pretty much useless to try to play what I'm suggesting in phrygian mode.

let me know, Thanks.

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/19/2016:  19:06:52

I/m not sure what you said. But go ahead and send what ever you got. I can figure it out....I think. Jerry

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/19/2016:  19:11:36

I am not sure about this question...and the answer in no. Are you placing just scales I got them licked. Just place scales and I pretty sure I can play them but maybe I can't. Give me something I look forward to it. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/19/2016:  21:15:43

here is a simple Phrygian chord progression. / / / / = 4 count. / / = 2 count. key of A phyrgian minor = F maj scale.

A min / / / / - Dmin / / - Gmin / /   repeat for 8 -16 measures what ever you want.

Here's a simple bridge: Dmin / / / / - / / / /   Bbmaj / / / / - / / / / - repeat.

this bridge will change the mode from A phrygian to D aeolian, but you keep on playing the same things, as D aeolian is also an F maj sc.

i will again list the different  things you can play over this : 

F maj scale - start this scale on A note G string. the Bb is the 'phrygian note'

Emin7b5 - E, G, Bb, D, (E)  this is my favorite

Bbmaj7 & Fmaj7 - 1, M3, M5, M7  I suggest starting these arps on the maj7, not on the tonic. this inversion sounds better.

A phrygian pentatonic: A, Bb, D, E, G

Amin pentatonic:  A, C, D, E, G

Amin blues scale: A, C, D, Eb, E, G

it is necessary to be able to extend all these form the G string to pinky on E string, using fragments, phrasing, mixed intervals etc. etc. to turn them into 'music' (to state the obvious)

I have a nice Phrygian back ground on my sequencer and backgrounds for the church modes can be purchased (cheap) on line, David Wallimann has some nice ones.

anyone else wants to fool around with this, let me know what you think.

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/19/2016:  21:26:32

Dave, Just send me patterns that are in this mode...A Eb C G, I don't need theory because I never needed it..I just play.

If you would do this I'll play anything you want. Please don't try to teach me. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/19/2016:  21:44:44

I've sent you a solid foundation. You have to make up your own patterns. The possible combinations of patterns for the above would be astronomical. I'm certainly not going to make up a whole bunch of patterns for you.



You said "I don't need theory because I never needed it, I just play".....so play!

and don't worry, I won't try to teach you anything ever again. and visa versa...Thanks.

Edited by - bluesmode on 02/19/2016 21:47:05

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/19/2016:  22:23:34

Ok, Have it your way. I really think you are not are as good as you pretend to be. You once said that you fill comfortable in 6th position and you play folk. My question is why do you go up to 6th on folk tunes. David, You have a lot of knowledge of how to play fiddle but the same goes with every instrument. I have played for a very long time and I know from ear what to play and not what to play. You post some very interesting things but they are only scales and you can only play scales one way. But if you just alter these scales no telling what you can come up with...much like what you posted. Me myself like to keep it simple...learn the scale then branch off from there. I would like for us to remain friends because I can learn form you and and you can learn from me. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2016:  00:56:56

I don't really care if you think I'm not as good as I pretend to be.

Why do I go up to the 6th position on folk tunes?..... because I can, and it can be very pretty up there. but maybe I'm just making that up.

and finally, once and for all, I don't play scales. I play music.

I've played my violin, sang & played guitar for audiences of up to 200 people.

anyways, I'm not going to continue debating with you, and I won't be talking to you any further.... go ahead and put your last word in.

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/20/2016:  10:22:05

Dave, I don't mean you no harm. All I was asking for you to post some licks. I don't care if you play in nth position go ahead and do it. I think you post some interesting things and they look like scales to me in fact they are scales. Post licks that you may use is all I'm asking we could all use this stuff. I didn't mean you no harm just post something that we all can use. I think its good that you played in front of 200 people I however played in front of thousands. So I'm not impressed with your resume. If you don't want to talk to mke no more thats fine I was one of your biggest fans now I'll just write you off.. As far as you playing in 6th position in folk music if you do indeed play that high you are just showing off and im not impressed. I think you have an ego as big as boat and further more you said you have a list of 25 tunes that you can play I have a list of hundreds. You play at jams and I play for listening people. So I'm going to pass this back to you...go ahead and put your last word in. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/20/2016:  15:47:39

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

The scales are scales Henry. Now put some meat on those bones. 

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Hey Jerry, I made up some more scales for ya....

Now 'you' go and put the ''meat on dem bones''....

And stop feuding with members...!

Bebop Phrygian......1 b2 2 b3 4 5  b6 b7

Bebop Lydian..........1 2 3 4 +4 5 6 7

Bebop Locrian.........1 b2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 b7

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/20/2016:  16:25:16

Henry, Are you playing scales. I can't read this stuff. Why don't you post in G Ab D E or something. I can read it that way. The way you wrote it doesn't make since to me.

Listen buddy, All I wanted is for Dave to post some actual licks that he uses in what ever he plays. He sent me something I don't understand. and I said don't try to teach me how to play.

Thats all and he gets all bent out of shape. You know I can argue with the best of them and I refuse to argue ever again. I like what he is doing but just post something real...something that you play and we all could learn from. I am true liker of this guy and I hope he continues what he does. Feuding, I don't see that...It's just coming to equal grounds. Thats all. Jerry 

buckhenry - Posted - 02/20/2016:  17:07:02

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

Please don't try to teach me. Jerry

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This is the problem Jerry. We are all here to learn, including you.

First you gotta learn this.......1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Then learn how to read this........

 

 

 

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/20/2016:  17:34:34

Henry, Learning musical notation is long behind me. I have learned to play with nothing but my ears. I can however read chord charts in Nashville style and that ain't know easy feat. I'm a old dog to playing things and I can play you some of the best stuff you have ever heard. So I say to you...don't try to teach me...because I know what kind of player I am and there ain't nothing going to change me. There are people that need a piece of paper in front of them and I do too at times. But these pieces of paper are chord charts....everything else I improvise because I can. Don't get me wrong, but I don't need all these things to help me play....I just play. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/20/2016:  17:44:42

You need to learn these things to understand what we are talking about and contribute to the discussions...?

Because we ain't gonna be bothered writtin it out simple for you...

I don't need it to play either, but I think theory is very interesting...

I just come back from the ''Fiddlers Convention'' and I just 'played'.....................

tunes, and improvised..by ear, without paper like I always do....!

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/20/2016:  17:55:33

Henry, I don't need to learn these things. If you want and understand these things go ahead ain;t nothing stopping you.

If you don't want to write it out simple thats fine because I can figure it out on own.

I will not only figure it out on my own by the time I'm done with it...I'll own it.

The ears are powerful as you know...my ears are powerful .Jerry

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/20/2016:  18:27:04

I think that this next thing I'm going to talk about belongs in this thread. There are many of you that have no idea of how to play in straight tuning. Perhaps you can't use your pinky....or perhaps you may not be able to use other fingers

Have ever conciderd cross tuning. Cross tuning is simple..you just lower or raise the string to make the tune easier to play. You can use many diffent varitey's of Cross tuning. You can use EAEA, you can use C#AEA, not your standerd tuning. By useing these and other tunings you have left out your use of other finger's. This is a great way to fiddling and you don't have to use all your fingers. When I cross tune if ever I do I may take and lower my E string to D, I would leave my A in place as well as my D and G string. If you have problems useing your fingers try cross tuning. Jerry 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2016:  19:02:36

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

 I really think you are not are as good as you pretend to be.

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you started out this post by calling me a Liar. then when I say I think playing the upper registers can sound pretty, you twist that around and say I'm showing off.

You criticize me for talking about scales. I like scales arpeggios & modes. I use them as a means to an end. What do you talk about? I just play....I just play....I just play. 

at Least twice you've asked me to post some music, and at least twice I've replied directly to you, listing the specific reasons why I am unable to do so.

and who has the Ego. How many times have I heard you say "I've been playing such a long time....I've played with this person and that person. I don't need theory, I just play. why do you even post in Music theory.... you don't need it, you don't want it, you can do everything by just playing.

I think you owe me an apology for calling me a Liar. Something like "I have no basis for saying - I really think you are not as good as you pretend to be"... I could just as easy say "I really think you should keep your mouth shut" instead of making unfounded and insulting accusations.  

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/20/2016:  19:54:59

Dave, I mean no harm and I owe you an apology I know this. I didn't mean to start an argument. All I asked for you to play some real stuff that we could all to share. I posted " don't try to teach me" and you were the one that blew up.

 I don't understand a lot of what you post but I read it. I am one of your greatest fans. But if you can't post some real stuff that you play I have a problem with this. You have never once posted one thing for us to hear your playing. With that said you are just a talking head and we have a lot of talking heads on this site.

You can say anything you want to about me I've heard that before. I mean what I said about playing in 6th...Now why in the world would you want to go that high to play folk music isn't 1st position good enough. You say that you have been playing 25 years and yet you only know 25 tunes. Something doesn't add up here. Playing 25 years and you only know 25 tunes. The thing I said about you being a liar...you tell me...are you a lier or are you not.It's easy to lie. Now, going to thro this right back a you. Trust me I don't know the charts that you sent me...but I can play and don't you mistake me as someone who cannot. I don't want to make this an argument but if you won't one I will give it to you. Friends, cant we just be friends. Jerry 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2016:  01:19:04

1. "You have never posted one thing one for us to hear your playing"  Don't you listen? Are you losing your memory? I've told you twice why I can't post music.

2. We are mostly all a  bunch of talking heads .... how do you feel about that, fellow FH members?

3. "Why in the world would you want to go that high to play folk music?" I said I accompany acoustic guitarists who play blues, folk, country.

are you the position police? If you don't like me going up to the 5th - 6th position.... too bad. If I was playing a gypsy tune that jumped to the 6th position (which I do) would that be ok with you? Can't you play up there? I'm a violinist. violinist's don't play in just the first position.

4. "You say you've been playing 25 years and only know 25 tunes, something doesn't add up there" actually I've been playing 40 years, started in 1976. I know 25 tunes because I CHOOSE to know only 25 tunes for busking, I repeat: for busking. I've put most of my time into practicing and performing improv.  Do I need your permission to do that also? Does that "add up" ? I don't care if you know 1000 tunes. Do I criticize and call you suspect for that?

5. "are you a liar or are you not. It's easy to lie".  there you go again. Hear Ye, All FH members, for the record, I AM NOT A LIAR.

it's embarrassing to even have to dignify that question with an answer. The Sheer audacity of that 'implied' accusation leaves me dumbfounded.

Sure, I'll argue with you until the cows come home. or until the mods come to there senses and discipline you... say bar you from the forum for a month...or block me from the website permanently. At this point, I don't care.

'so called' apology  NOT ACCEPTED 

Chops Chomper - Posted - 02/21/2016:  09:50:46

Well Dave, I vowed  not to get in another argument and I mean it. I will hand out my hand now and we shake. I am sorry for all that I wrote and hope this is ok by you.

I did not mean to cause you any harm. Will accept my apology now and we just move on. Jerry 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2016:  16:45:05

apology accepted. Thanks.