Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/14/2014:  07:06:44

I have books on music theory. I study them and eventually understand the contents. But one thing is always lacking.  They don't do a good job of explaining how/when/where to apply theory explained in the book.  A series of DVDs demonstrating how to apply musical theory would be a big help.  For me, I have to work harder tring to teach myself how to apply theory than I did to read and understand the theory.

Sue B. - Posted - 06/14/2014:  07:29:19

Interesting. Because I know this like the back of my hand, I don't think about it, but I use it pretty persistently. When I'm learning or explaining new tunes by ear, I instantly think, "Half-scale here, arpeggio there, conventional chord change here, unusual chord change there." When something feels difficult, or a student is having trouble, I often think it through in theoretical terms. OH.... intonation issues here because it's the key of whatever and he/she isn't edging up the 7th note, etc.

chops_butcher - Posted - 06/14/2014:  07:38:43

Why do you need to apply it..?  Do you want to analyze or compose a piece of music.?

RobBob - Posted - 06/14/2014:  07:55:53

Applied theory helps you understand the concepts of I-IV-V, arpeggios, scales and modes.  Beyond that it helps to build chords in backup.  Otherwise I just play.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/14/2014:  08:32:52

reckon it must be like Sue B and RobBob says, use it for thinking of tunes in chunks because the theory has already been applied by the composer(s),also it could be a good tool for understanding why they've written it that way,then you could write /improvise something that sounds similar if you needed to
i'm working on this one myself,(in improvising) and trying not to play stuff unless i know why i'm playing it
good luck pete

Bradford - Posted - 06/14/2014:  12:24:49

quote:

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Originally posted by RobBob

 

Applied theory helps you understand the concepts of I-IV-V, arpeggios, scales and modes.  Beyond that it helps to build chords in backup.  Otherwise I just play.

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That smacks of anti-intellectualism to me.

It helps if you like to figure out tunes on the fly, transposing from one key to another, choosing double stops, improvising &/or understand how to put sets of tunes together along with a litany of other purposes. Shunning theory is like choosing to fumble around in the dark for a light switch when you have a flashlight in your hand.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/14/2014:  13:48:15

When I am watching really good professional fiddlers, they will do something with the music that really "catches my ear". I will think about it and use these ideas in simple form. But I think that if someone with more training/experience/talent would explain some concepts and demonstrate how to include them in various forms, players could make their music more enjoyable and interesting. I have lots of Ian Walsh's videos, and I watch him play very useful and interesting things. He explains how to do some things, but these ideas just come off the top of his head. Watching and listening to him play has given me the initiative to start doing more with my playing. I used to do some of these things, but they seem to have fallen in disuse.



I hope the fiddle I just bought increase my initiative. Watching small segments of Ian's videos over and over helps. Musicians used to play a few tracks on old records over and over, in some cases until the record turned white. I guess I am doing the same thing with Ian's videos. I do know his videos have increased my musical knowledge. Without doubt I am using drones and slides more, and adding chromatic variety to noting patterns. He made me aware of the significance of every musical note.  .



Having a player discuss their ideas on some of the musical techniques they use would make things much easier. Unfortunately the players who could probably do this best seem to just do it instinctively. I will watch him do some things, and think "that wan't that hard, why don't I put things like that in tunes when I play". I just have to get in gear.

The best thing for me would be to find the right instructor.

 

Edited by - Dick Hauser on 06/14/2014 13:55:23

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/14/2014:  23:15:19

Yes,Ian Walsh is one of my favorite online resources as well ,and i have heard people who have been to a workshop with Stuart Duncan no less,and come away none the wiser..and other folk who have been on a course with Tim Kliphuis and come away with more questions than answers.
i'm thinking that theory and playing have got to develop in parallel..(while you are learning new tunes and having a good time playing them) :o)

incidentally here's a link i found recently that answered a few of my (not fiddle related)theory questions:

h-pi.com/theory/foreword.html

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/15/2014:  01:41:53

Some aspects of theory are pretty accessible to fiddlers, because the fiddle is tuned in fifths.   You can play a whole scale on only 2 strings, and this allows you to visualize clearly each step of the scale.  The problem is that since you normally can't play 3 strings at once, you can't play triads.  But you can learn what notes they are and arpeggiate on them.  And chord theory can help you with double stops.

If you play a chord instrument like guitar too, it can help get you further into chord theory.  And if you can play guitar, you can "read" the guitarist's chording hand, and that can help you in improvising or in learning tunes.  This is especially true because sometimes you get tune variants that throw in different chords to what is basically the same tune, and it affects the notes played, and knowing the chord being played can tip you off to the correct notes to play.

I would say music theory is MORE useful if you are playing in a genre where improvisation is expected.

If you are in a genre where you just learn and play tunes, it's not absolutely necessary, but it can still be useful.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/15/2014:  09:09:06

I feel that awareness of music theory can add a lot to a musicians "toolbox". Generally speaking, fiddlers who play styles requiring improvisation probably work harder on learning musical theory. Playing with a good rhythm guitar player who knows how to use alternate chords and a good moving base line is like suddenly waking up and finding out that your playing has improved overnight. Some things the rhythm player does are like musical road signs saying "get ready - here it comes".

If and when I do find the "right" instructor, I want to spend time "picking" their brain and getting notation when it is needed. We could pick a specific subject and discuss the mechanics and use of that material. Using the material is what helps me remember it. Watching videos of exceptional fiddlers make me aware of the fact that there is so much to learn.

Duckinacup - Posted - 06/15/2014:  10:10:08

Learning how a pentatonic scale is built (or any other type of scale) is learning the theory.  We memorize the scale then move on to something else.  But, learning how to use that scale in a tune is practical application.  Application can take the form of adding ornaments and flourishes to a tune, finding just the right double stop to compliment it, and other ways I haven't even imagined, yet.  The key is learning the theory - you can't use it if you don't know it.

Applying theory is what makes a tune yours.

If that doesn't make a lot of sense, get a copy of  HOCUM: Theory and Scales for Fiddle Tunes and Fiddle Improvisation, (LEON GRIZZARD. Mell Bay publications, no edition given so must be the first).   Very clear text on the theory as well as how and when to use it.

Edited by - Duckinacup on 06/15/2014 10:12:23

Addie - Posted - 06/15/2014:  15:31:21

I was kicked out of Music Theory and Composition 101 for passing notes.  

fujers - Posted - 06/15/2014:  19:58:29

That was good Addie

Duckinacup - Posted - 06/16/2014:  17:31:16

Addie, at least it wasn't for passing gas.    (we really need a belly laughing smilie for moments like this.)

Mandobart - Posted - 06/18/2014:  08:51:51

Music theory is to playing as composition and grammar are to writing and speaking.  We all know some theory that we aren't consciously aware of.  When writing this message or speaking, I don't stop and think about the grammatical rules, sentence structure, etc.  Yet you are all able to understand this.  That is the result of instruction, study and practice over a period of time.  Theory is of most benefit when improvising or learning by ear.  Some people with near zero knowledge of theory will launch into a break or lead and the result can be as incomprehensible as a person randomly uttering words in different languages or pecking at keys in no particular order.  A good understanding of basic theory helps us play so that others can comprehend and recognize it as musical.

It's like learning a second (or third, or even first) language.  At first you struggle to remember words, form sentences and understand replies.  Initially it sounds like cave-man talk, but with practice and study you learn to read, write and speak the new language.  Eventually you don't even have to think about it, you just speak like you do in your native language.

For basic theory, we need to know the primary keys, their scales (sharps and flats).  When someone calls a tune you'll know which notes "belong,"  what the usual chord progression is, and the arpeggios that build from those cords.   I don't stop and think of this while playing of course, it is the result of study and practice over many hours (notice that's hours, not years.  There's a difference).  

boxbow - Posted - 06/18/2014:  09:42:24

For my purposes, music theory has greater value descriptively than predictively.  I can talk to another musician about what just happened musically using theory, perhaps augmented by an audible demonstration.  That's what I mean by descriptive.  While I might be able to use it to predict the results of some usage (if this is so, then that must reasonably follow) I normally just play what sounds right, because thinkin' ain't playin' for me.  This need not be true of all players.  If I had a better understanding of chords, I might be a better fiddler, despite not playing chords per se on my fiddle.

In the final analysis, music theory is the final analysis, so to speak.

fujers - Posted - 06/21/2014:  13:40:44

Well