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ARCHIVED TOPIC: Diminsh my dilemma.

Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/37903

haggis - Posted - 06/06/2014: 11:54:47

Diminished scales have two patterns, 1/2 step ,whole step and whole step ,1/2 step. I know they can be played over dominant chords as well as diminished, but when to use one and not the other?

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 06/06/2014: 12:27:30

Well .... Check out the Wikipedia page on these scales en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_scale ..... because of the way this scale is constructed you wind up with a flatted 7th so it becomes a question of which one you like the sound of...... the diminished scales like the chords only have three forms so one of three patterns fits .

E♭ diminished (F♯/G♭, A, C diminished): E♭, F, F♯, G♯, A, B, C, D, E♭

D diminished (F, A♭, B diminished): D, E, F, G, A♭, B♭, B, C♯, D

D♭ diminished (E, G, B♭ diminished): D♭, E♭, E, F♯, G, A, B♭, C, D♭

In steps .......

W/H/W/H/W/H/W/H

if you want to start on a tone other than the tonic / 1 I guess you would be playing H/W/H/W/H/W/H/W

Luck .... R/

Edited by - UsuallyPickin on 06/06/2014 12:37:12

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/06/2014: 12:38:23

Use them when you want to sound like you're playing jazz. There are only 3 different diminished chords, use them sparingly.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 06/07/2014: 04:28:16

They do make a good ending lick on a descending scale ........

Joel Glassman - Posted - 06/12/2014: 19:33:20

Bully of the Town sounds good with a diminished chord in the second measure: G to G diminished. Mainly because its a ragtime progression and "headed to the land of Jazz". I can't think of another instance of a diminished chord in oldtime music.

Edited by - Joel Glassman on 06/12/2014 19:35:05

Stergios Loustas - Posted - 03/04/2015: 14:40:07

The symmetry of the diminished scale is a valuable tool for unlocking harmony. As mentioned, there are 3 diminished families. There are 4 dominant chords and four minor chords that belong to each family. Interestingly, these 8 chords form 4 different 2-5's. (there are 12 in total since there are 3 diminished families).
Here they are:

Family 1 (defined by the diminished arpeggio: G, Bb, C#, E or the equivalent diminished scale)
2-5's that belong to this family
Gm7 C7
Bbm7 Eb7
C#m7 F#7
Em7 A7

Family 2 (defined by the diminished arpeggio: Ab, B, D, F or the equivalent diminished scale)
2-5's that belong to this family
Abm7 Db7
Bm7 E7
Dm7 G7
Fm7 Bb7

Family 3 (defined by the diminished arpeggio: A, C, Eb, F# or the equivalent diminished scale)
2-5's that belong to this family
Am7 D7
Cm7 F7
Ebm7 Ab7
Fm#7 B7

Note that:

1) The diminished scale is formed by approaching each note of the arpeggio chromatically from below
2) You can improvise on all the above chords by simply using their parent diminished melodic material (Yes, I am serious!)
3) Diminished sounds typically cannot outline major chords since they are built on minor triads. However, they are a great tool for resolving (leading) into major chords. Diminished sounds are great tension builders.

chas5strings - Posted - 03/08/2015: 12:48:38

Stergios

Succinct, well thought out and well explained.

An asset to FHO. Stick around!

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/23/2015: 17:23:27

Isn't a diminished chord just a succession of minor thirds? Wherever you are, just go up or down a couple (or a zillion) of minor thirds. No need to get scientific.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/24/2015: 09:33:46

quote:
Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Isn't a diminished chord just a succession of minor thirds? Wherever you are, just go up or down a couple (or a zillion) of minor thirds. No need to get scientific.

Diminished chords are easy to figure out; the diminished scales, not so much!

fiddlebut - Posted - 04/15/2015: 23:42:57

quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Isn't a diminished chord just a succession of minor thirds? Wherever you are, just go up or down a couple (or a zillion) of minor thirds. No need to get scientific.

Diminished chords are easy to figure out; the diminished scales, not so much!

Actually, the scales are really easy to figure out too.........

Just superimpose any two of the diminished arpeggios.

G Bb C* E

Ab B D F

A C Eb F*

Thus....

G Ab Bb B C* D E F

Ab A B C D Eb F F*

A Bb C C* Eb E F*G

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/16/2015: 06:30:27

For the visual learner

Diminished Theory

bluesmode - Posted - 09/03/2015: 21:10:30

it looks like the activity on this thread has diminished so..... there are 3 diminshed scales, there are only 2 whole tone scales! I think whole tones are also good if you 'want to sound like yer playing jazz'. I prefer to do W/T's with open strings in the first position. This requires a bit of half step shifting when going from one string to the other, but at least you have some open strings to 'anchor' your ear.
I think it works to start the scale (up or down) a half step below or above the root note of whatever you're playing. I also like W/T's cus they sound 'outside'

I've found a couple of places to use them in a blues setting, but any tips on when, where or how to put them in would be welcome.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/04/2015: 06:20:13

quote:
Originally posted by bluesmode

it looks like the activity on this thread has diminished so..... there are 3 diminshed scales, there are only 2 whole tone scales! I think whole tones are also good if you 'want to sound like yer playing jazz'. I prefer to do W/T's with open strings in the first position. This requires a bit of half step shifting when going from one string to the other, but at least you have some open strings to 'anchor' your ear.

I think it works to start the scale (up or down) a half step below or above the root note of whatever you're playing. I also like W/T's cus they sound 'outside'

I've found a couple of places to use them in a blues setting, but any tips on when, where or how to put them in would be welcome.

interesting.... only place i can "hear" where to use it would be as a pre-dominant chord/arpeggio/lick in a chord progression based on the harmonic minor scale

eg: Caug/// E7/// Am///...i would use it as the Caug chord before the Dominant,or over say half the duration of the Dominant chord to create tension, i can usually tell this type of progression from the use of the "Gypsy cliche" of say ...Am/ Am(Maj7)/ Am7/ Am6....etc

bluesmode - Posted - 09/04/2015: 17:18:30

Hello Pete, and thanks for the reply and the input. I visit a couple of other fiddle/violin sites, but Hangout is certainly a goodun. lots of good info here, and lots of what looks like some very good players. A few posts back on this thread there was a post from Stergios Loustas from Greece, about which diminished scales/arps to use over which 2-5's. I copied all that down! a really good referance to have on hand.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/04/2015: 23:35:13

cheers Dave,think i'll do the same

fiddlebut - Posted - 09/05/2015: 02:30:10

quote:
Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

No need to get scientific.

I agree, that's tons of info to take in, there must be a simpler way.

I've been practicing these ( 3 ) diminished arpegiated patterns and they can begin on any note of the flattened 9th chord other than the root, which is a diminished arpeggio. Then memorize the finger patterns for the 2 diminished scales.........that's it...!?