laertes22 - Posted - 05/29/2014:  05:39:46

I haven't ventured into the music theory forum a lot.  I have some music theory background from my childhood in band, but my knowledge is not extensive.  However, lately I have been incorporating a lot more major scales, major pentatonic scales, and arpeggios lately, and the effect on my playing has been amazing.

I've hard of some of them from playing a tiny bit of dulcimer or playing songs like Old Joe Clark on banjo and fiddle.

I know virtually nothing about modes-what they are, what they mean, how to make them, how to use them in playing.  I would like to know more.  Could somewhere explain about the modes in general (more specifically modes of major scales and how to figure them out for each scale)?

-Genford

Fiddler - Posted - 05/29/2014:  06:34:56

Basically, modes have to do with the location of the half-steps in the scale. Think white keys on the piano from C to C. This is the Ionian Scale. The half-steps are between E & F (III-IV) and B &C (VII-VIII). Change the half-steps - change mode. Myxolydian Mode - half steps at III-IV and VI-VII (flatted 7th). Aeolian mode - half steps at II-III and VII-VIII (flatted 3rd).

I hope I got this right. I'm sure someone will correct me, if I am wrong. Music theory is not my strong point!

DougD - Posted - 05/29/2014:  06:41:49

I'm not meaning to discourage you from asking questions, but this topic has been discussed seemingly endlessly here. Try the search box in the upper right corner of the page and search for "modes" or "modal tunes." This is actually a fairly simple subject that gets murkier the more its discussed. Wikipedia has a pretty good page on this topic:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29   Maybe skip down to the "Modern" section if you're not interested in the history.

laertes22 - Posted - 05/29/2014:  07:07:40

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

 

I'm not meaning to discourage you from asking questions, but this topic has been discussed seemingly endlessly here. Try the search box in the upper right corner of the page and search for "modes" or "modal tunes." This is actually a fairly simple subject that gets murkier the more its discussed. Wikipedia has a pretty good page on this topic:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29   Maybe skip down to the "Modern" section if you're not interested in the history.

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Point taken.  And thank you for the link.

-Genford

DougD - Posted - 05/29/2014:  07:16:51

If you end up with some specific questions then ask away - it would probably make for a clearer discussion. The problem is that everyone seems to have developed their own slightly different ways of understanding this, and when they all get put forward the thread turns to mush. Also it looks like they've changed the Wikipedia article (and others on music theory too) and it may not be as clear as it used to be. For traditional fiddling, in addition to major and minor, the Mixolydian mode (flatted seventh degree compared to major) and Dorian mode (flatted seventh and third degree) are about all you need to worry about.

Fiddler - I believe its customary in musical terminology to refer to the scale degrees (notes) with Arabic numerals. Roman numerals are reserved for chords.

laertes22 - Posted - 05/29/2014:  07:27:46

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

 

If you end up with some specific questions then ask away - it would probably make for a clearer discussion. The problem is that everyone seems to have developed their own slightly different ways of understanding this, and when they all get put forward the thread turns to mush. Also it looks like they've changed the Wikipedia article (and others on music theory too) and it may not be as clear as it used to be. For traditional fiddling, in addition to major and minor, the Mixolydian mode (flatted seventh degree compared to major) and Dorian mode (flatted seventh and third degree) are about all you need to worry about.

Fiddler - I believe its customary in musical terminology to refer to the scale degrees (notes) with Arabic numerals. Roman numerals are reserved for chords.

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I totally understand your point.  To be honest, I did actually do the search first before I asked.  However, like you said, everybody seemed to have their own interpretations and explanations, and it was all Greek to me (no pun intended).  A lot of the threads were archived, which means I couldn't reply with follow up questions or requests for clarification.  Looking at some different sites, I think I have a basic idea of how they pertain to scales and what they "mean" in that respect.  However, I'm still trying to figure out the #'s/b's/tones/semi-tones for the various modes relative to the major scales.  I'll probably just have to sit down and write it all out for it to "click" for me.

 I think I will probably have some more questions laterin regards to how it actually applies in a concrete way to playing the fiddle, but I'm not quite to that point yet. 

thank you for your help.

-Genford

DougD - Posted - 05/29/2014:  07:46:40

The information about the tones and semitones in the scales is in first little chart under "Modern" in the Wikipedia article. The idea of starting the scales on the different white keys of the piano is handy too. If you want to learn theory and don't already have one, I'd suggest you get a keyboard - even a $10 one from the Dollar store helps with this stuff.

As far as concrete ways in playing the fiddle, tunes that use the chord one step lower than the tonic (key signature) chord instead of or in addition to the Dominant chord are often Mixolydian - G to F, A to G, D to C - like "Paddy on the Turnpike," "Kitchen Girl," the B part of "June Apple." Tunes that also do this but sound "minor" are often Dorian - the only difference between it and "minor" (Aeolian mode) is that the sixth is flatted in Aeolian (just a semitone above the fifth instead of a whole tone). Sometimes the sixth isn't used, so it can be hard to tell.

If you look up tunes in the Fiddlers Companion it usually tells the mode in addition to the key. Sometimes its different for the A and B parts too.

There, I've probably said more than I should have already - don't want to start down the slippery slope again! Good luck.

Fiddler - Posted - 05/29/2014:  09:08:29

Thanks, Doug, for the clarification about notation. Like I said, music theory is not my strong suit, although I sort of know the basics. What I learned about modes was through learning to play the mountain dulcimer.  

Great suggestions!

BanjoBrad - Posted - 05/29/2014:  10:57:37

May be more than you need, but I'd recommend a book on basic music theory.  The one I turn to for refreshing my memory is The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory .  Good overall introduction, some chapters on reading music, major and minor scales, modes, and lots of other stuff.

I used it as a refresher about 10 years ago, since I have read music for over 60 years, but never really _studied_ it since 8th grade.

Edit: Here's a link to the book on Amazon: amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Gui...592574378 . I notice the second edition has an accompaning CD.

Another edit: I just reread your initial post, and think since you have some theory from your past that this book would be just what you need.

Edited by - BanjoBrad on 05/29/2014 11:01:29

DougD - Posted - 05/29/2014:  11:11:32

Well I swore I'd stay away from any more threads about modes, but  ..... Since you asked about the placement of the semitones, I'll try some more. Its not really very mysterious. If you look at the white keys on a piano, there are only two places where they're adjacent - just a semitone apart. This is between E and F, and between B and C. All the rest are separated by the big beautiful black keys, and thus are a whole tone apart. Where they fall in a scale depends on which key you use to begin the scale. If you start on C for a major scale (Ionian mode) its between degrees 3 and 4, and 7 and 8. Therefore, the third is major (4 half steps up from the tonic) and the seventh is also major (a full step up from the sixth and just a half step down from the octave).

If you use the technique of starting scales on successive white keys, the semitones don't jump around willy-nilly. They stay right where they are on the keyboard, but their relative position in the scale changes - they move "to the left," or "down the scale" with each succeeding starting note. Starting on D for the Dorian mode, one semitone is now between 2 and 3, so its a minor third instead of major. The other is now between 6 and 7, so although the sixth is major (separated from 5 by a black key) 7 is now only a semitone above the sixth, and a full step below the ocatve. As so on. On that little Wikipedia chart notice how the "s" for semitones, march dutifully to the left for each new mode.

Jumping ahead a bit, in the Aeolian mode (starting on A) the semitones are between 2 and 3 again, making a minor third, like the Dorian, but the other is between 5 and 6, so the sixth is minor, unlike Dorian.  In the Mixolydian mode, starting on G, the semitones are between 3 and 4, (thus a major third) and 6 and 7, so the 7th is a semitone flat compared to a major scale.

Two modes are a little different. The intervals of a fourth and fifth are considered "perfect" - they are not major minor, and most of the modes contain "perfect" fourths and fifths. One exception is Lydian, where the fourth is "augmented," a half step higher than in a major scale, but the weirder case is Locrian. This is the only mode where both semitones (B-C and E-F) fall within the fifth, (which it could be argued is the most important interval in music), so its "diminished" (a tritone, two stacked minor thirds). For this reason this mode is sometimes considered "theoretical," although I guess the jazzers find uses for it.

As an alternative to a physical keyboard, I find this computer version very useful:  vmpk.sourceforge.net/

Edited by - DougD on 05/29/2014 11:20:33

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/29/2014:  12:06:03

Pick any scale you like, start on any note of that scale you fancy , play through using only the notes in that scale till you reach the same note an octave higher, and youv'e just played a mode (i call em 1st mode 2nd mode etc depending on what degree of the scale i started on) there are names for them but they have been described in other threads

how you use them is another question

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 05/29/2014:  12:16:10

quote:

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Originally posted by laertes22

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

I'm not meaning to discourage you from asking questions, but this topic has been discussed seemingly endlessly here. Try the search box in the upper right corner of the page and search for "modes" or "modal tunes." This is actually a fairly simple subject that gets murkier the more its discussed. Wikipedia has a pretty good page on this topic:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29   Maybe skip down to the "Modern" section if you're not interested in the history.

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Point taken.  And thank you for the link.

 

-Genford

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After the last round of  posts about modes I just broke down and bought a book about music theory and came to a good understanding of modes.. It was one of the best things I've done musically in a while.. Try it..

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/29/2014:  13:36:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

If you end up with some specific questions then ask away - it would probably make for a clearer discussion. The problem is that everyone seems to have developed their own slightly different ways of understanding this, and when they all get put forward the thread turns to mush.

---

It boils down to two different ways that are so different that yeah....the threads can turn to mush.

The first way starts with a major scale plus a few more on either side, and uses the same notes in major scale with different ending points... it's useful on instruments that have limited note choices like most lap dulcimers, or smaller harmonicas, or diatonic accordions. It's also related to the familiar (to many) concept of relative minors- if A minor is the relative minor scale of C major, then the modes add more relatives in like manner, but with other ending points to resolve on.  For folk fiddlers in the English, Irish, Scottish or Old Time traditions, Dorian and Mixolydian are the only two that have any importance. This approach applies to Old Time in that A Dorian uses the same fingered notes as G major, and A Mixolydian uses the same fingered notes as D major.  You could call this a fixed note, variable tonic approach to modes.

The second way starts with a major scale, then flattens particular notes to get the different mode- you get mixolydian by flattening the third, and dorian by flattening the third and seventh.  The tonic (starting and ending point) stay the same.  Some Irish and Old Time tunes function this way- say both parts will have the same tonic, but the 7th note will change from major to minor.  This approach is a natural one for chromatic instruments like piano and clarinet, with special keys for playing the flats. This could be called the fixed tonic, variable note approach to modes.   I tend to use this approach when improvising on electric guitar, since I prefer to improvise intuitively.  I LIKE to use the  same "box" or scale as major, and then just intuit different resting places and tonics.

The fiddle/violin doesn't strictly force or favor either approach.... with practice, complete chromatic scales are available.

However, each accidental (sharp or flat) off of the main scale isn't a trivial change, because the intonation of that note isn't assured. So violinists tend to be more comfortable with the fixed tonic, variable note approach, where folk fiddlers tend to like the fixed note, variable tonic approach.

In Old Time, you get G major, D major, and A Dorian and A Mixolydian with just changing C to C#!!!  Since I don't play that many Old Time C tunes, most of my Old Time repertoire fits into those categories.

Perhaps threads could avoid being turned to mush if every discussion of modes segregated the two approaches into separate threads!

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 05/29/2014 15:43:29

chops_butcher - Posted - 05/29/2014:  14:36:59

quote:

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Originally posted by laertes22

 I'll probably just have to sit down and write it all out for it to "click" for me.

 

 

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And get a keyboard or a xylophone or draw a diagram of  a keyboard. Play all the white notes, ONLY!.

Play from C up to C and back...mode 1

D to D.....mode 2

E to E ....mode 3

F to F.....mode 4

G to G...mode 5

A to A ....mode 6

B to B  ...mode 7.....simple as that.....How to use them will be covered in a new thread..............

tomarri2 - Posted - 05/29/2014:  22:36:33

Modes of the Major Scale (Key of C):

1 = Ionian (Major): C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C = Chord: C (C,E,G)

2 = Dorian (minor): D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D = Chord: dm (d,f,a)

3 = Phrygian (minor): E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E = Chord: em (e,g,b)

4 = Lydian (Major): F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F = Chord: F (F,A,C)

5 = Mixolydian (Major): G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G = Chord: G (G,B,D)

6 = Aeolian (minor): A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A = Chord: am (a,c,e)

7 = Locrian (diminished): B,C,D,E,F,G,A,B = Chord: b dim. (b,d,f)

Related articles:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(music)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_scale

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

Good ear training for possible modes is to play a "Harmonized Major Scale" chord progression, featuring each chord of the key for a number of measures, so you have time to think, listen and respond... and play whatever sounds good to your ear over each chord... You may not know the name of the mode you're playing, but you'll get an idea of what your ear is comfortable with...

Tom

Edited by - tomarri2 on 05/29/2014 22:45:59

RobBob - Posted - 05/30/2014:  06:13:13

Modes are like the old spiritual where it sings so high you can't over it, so low you can't go under it, so wide you can't go around it, you just got to go in by the door.  Do it, play them.  Listen to them while you play them,then play them again and listen again.  It will make sense there is no golden bullet.

vibratingstring - Posted - 05/30/2014:  09:14:14

I like that Doug came around on this one.  :)

....from "been there, done that"........to, "but let me just add the following...", all of which was interesting.    I learn something every time this topic comes up.

Larry

johnv - Posted - 06/10/2014:  11:22:04

I have messed a little with my mtn. dulcimer and never really paid attention to modes BUT MAN  you really opened my eyes.   Thanks Alot   John

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 06/11/2014:  13:16:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomarri2

 

---

Modes of the Major Scale (Key of C):

---

1 = Ionian (Major): C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C = Chord: C (C,E,G)

2 = Dorian (minor): D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D = Chord: dm (d,f,a)

3 = Phrygian (minor): E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E = Chord: em (e,g,b)

4 = Lydian (Major): F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F = Chord: F (F,A,C)

5 = Mixolydian (Major): G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G = Chord: G (G,B,D)

6 = Aeolian (minor): A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A = Chord: am (a,c,e)

7 = Locrian (diminished): B,C,D,E,F,G,A,B = Chord: b dim. (b,d,f)

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Related articles:

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(music)

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_scale

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

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Good ear training for possible modes is to play a "Harmonized Major Scale" chord progression, featuring each chord of the key for a number of measures, so you have time to think, listen and respond... and play whatever sounds good to your ear over each chord... You may not know the name of the mode you're playing, but you'll get an idea of what your ear is comfortable with...

Tom

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Are there similar names for modes in keys other than C??

 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/11/2014:  14:18:22

The name of the mode is not just in C (just an example) - it transfers to any key. One way to think about it is simply as sequence of whole (w) and half (h) steps. Essentially just shifting the sequence by one.

Ionian - root then wwhwwwh which brings you to the octave root.

Dorian - root then whwwwhw which brings you to the octave root.

Phrygian - root then hwwwhww which brings you to the octave root

Lydian - root then wwwhwwh which brings you to the octave root

Mixolydian - root then wwhwwhw which brings you to the octave root.

Aeolian - root then whwwhww which brings you to the octave root.

Locorian - root then hwwhwww which brings you to the octave root.

So for E Dorain, just start with E and follow the sequence  - E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

that's one way to think of modes.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 06/11/2014 14:20:22

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 06/11/2014:  14:21:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

The name of the mode is not just in C (just an example) - it transfers to any key. One way to think about it is simply as sequence of whole (w) and half (h) steps. Essentially just shifting the sequence by one.

Ionian - root then wwhwwwh which brings you to the octave root.

Dorian - root then whwwwhw which brings you to the octave root.

Phrygian - root then hwwwhww which brings you to the octave root

Lydian - root then wwwhwwh which brings you to the octave root

Mixolydian - root then wwhwwhw which brings you to the octave root.

Aeolian - root then whwwhww which brings you to the octave root.

Locorian - root then hwwhwww which brings you to the octave root.

So for E Dorain, just start with E and follow the sequence  - E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

that's one way to think of modes.

 

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Yes.. It IS logicall.. thanks.

fujers - Posted - 06/21/2014:  13:41:35

well

andrewjamesjunior - Posted - 06/22/2014:  17:05:00

Instead of modes, Music Learning Theory suggests we think about TONALITIES.  Major is a tonality. Minor is a tonality. Dorian is a tonaility. Mixolydian is a tonality. Each tonality has a Resting Tone, and Functions. 

If we sing from Do to Do (Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do), then we are in Major Tonality. (In Mode terms, Ionian.)  Each tonality has what are called FUNCTIONS, or in common parlance, chords.  Major functions include Tonic, Dominant, and Subdominant, or I, IV, V.  Home base, or the resting tone, is Do. 

If we sing from Re to Re, while maintaining the same relationship of half steps and whole steps, we are in the tonality of Dorian. The Resting Tone is Re. The chords include Tonic, Sub-Tonic, and a major Sub-Dominant Chord. 

The same continues on for the rest, with a La-Based Minor, a Mi-based Phrygian, etc. 

We can noodle around on the piano using the ehite keys to get a sense of what each tonality sounds like. 

The words "mode" and "modal" just confuse the issue, so Gordon, of Music Learning Theory fame, prefers the word TONALITY. 

Conrad - Posted - 06/30/2014:  08:09:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

The name of the mode is not just in C (just an example) - it transfers to any key. One way to think about it is simply as sequence of whole (w) and half (h) steps. Essentially just shifting the sequence by one.

 

---

The following indentation may help people recognize that the next sequence is gotten by removing a letter from the front of the current sequence and tacking it onto the end.

Ionian      wwhwwwh

Dorian        whwwwhw

Phrygian       hwwwhww

Lydian             wwwhwwh

Mixolydian         wwhwwhw

Aeolian                 whwwhww

Locrian                    hwwhwww

 

dogmageek - Posted - 07/10/2014:  18:23:29

A thing I have noticed about the dorian mode is it is written in the key one whole step below. For example A dorian is basically A minor (A minor chords too) but it is written in the key signature of G (one whole step below A) which is written with one sharp. So the chords are often just A minor and G major.

Same with E dorian which is basically E minor key and chords but is written in the key signature of D major. The chords go back and forth from E minor to D major.

You can look at the notes and if it starts and ends on a note and is written in the key signature one whole step below that note I'm starting to think dorian. Then the chords are minor chord and major chord one step below.

martynspeck - Posted - 07/11/2014:  07:26:13

Here's a nice discussion on the modes with some samples.

pianonoise.com/Article.Plato.htm