haggis - Posted - 04/26/2014:  16:36:45

Is 3rd position used, in the main, to get the high notes on the A and E strings?

saltcured - Posted - 04/26/2014:  16:50:27

That's how I started with it, then later found out it has advantages on the lower strings too, like avoiding string crossings, for example you can go down from B to A to G all on the D string instead of using both A & D strings. Comes in handy!

Edited by - saltcured on 04/26/2014 16:52:18

Bradford - Posted - 04/26/2014:  19:58:47

I use 3rd more than 2nd, especially in Scottish tunes, for high A B C# bits. 3rd is easier for me I can hear the octave of the lower string and off I go.

fujers - Posted - 04/26/2014:  23:01:17

Hey, 3rd position is really neat. Now getting to it takes some work. Like I said in a previous post. Take and hit an open A..now take and use your finger to hit the upper A on your E string. Found it? Thats good

Now, place your second finger on the the note above A to B..got it...now place your third finger on "C#. Now you'[re in the key of A. Explore what you can do. Remember the 3rd position takes no hostages you'll have to have your game face on to have the sound. But you can do it. Try it

Swing - Posted - 04/27/2014:  04:28:29

To answer your question, no, the third position can be used across the strings to play from C on the G string up to the high E on the E string...thus you can easily play tunes an octave up from the first position.... the easy way to learn to do this is to run the scales in the third position.... as Fujers has indicated, explore and be surprised....

Play Happy

Swing

saltcured - Posted - 04/27/2014:  16:21:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Hey, 3rd position is really neat. Now getting to it takes some work. Like I said in a previous post. Take and hit an open A..now take and use your finger to hit the upper A on your E string. Found it? Thats good

Now, place your second finger on the the note above A to B..got it...now place your third finger on "C#. Now you'[re in the key of A. Explore what you can do. Remember the 3rd position takes no hostages you'll have to have your game face on to have the sound. But you can do it. Try it

---

Plus, it's fun. It's like learning a whole new instrument. I used to struggle with learning certain licks down in 1st until I found out they go a lot easier up in 3rd. Can't think of any particular example & wouldn't know how to describe them anyway, but you'll figure it out by trying.

fujers - Posted - 04/27/2014:  17:03:22

saltcured, Thats right! It will open up a whole world to you. A in 3rd position is easy. Play like I told you. The other keys G, C, D,F will come to you... try and play in any key you can imagine. Things will start to click. You nothing to gain but wisdom

saltcured - Posted - 04/27/2014:  17:26:45

haggis, I just thought of a good tune in G that you might like, one I used to struggle with in 1st and now play much more easily almost entirely in 3rd, on the G, D & A strings only: it's Bill Monroe's "Goin' up Caney."

fujers, is that how you play it too?

fujers - Posted - 04/27/2014:  18:26:48

Hi, I don't know Going Up Caney. Could you send me an mp3 or video?

saltcured - Posted - 04/27/2014:  19:20:25

No, sorry I'm kind of behind the times technologically. I just recall learning it off Bill's "Uncle Pen" album years ago & never got to see anybody play that particular tune in person. That album sure was a goldmine of good stuff to learn.

andydean - Posted - 04/27/2014:  20:12:49

I work on scales in third postion and I've started incorporating third position in some simple songs like Angeline the Baker. I played it at two jams this weekend and was able to do some decent improv up there. I actually think it's easier to do that up the neck, once you get the hang of it, maybe because the notes are closer and it feels like you don't have to go as far with your fingers between notes, kind of like you can play faster because there's less distance for your fingers to travel. Also when you shift you can get some great long slides that sound cool.

saltcured - Posted - 04/27/2014:  20:23:06

Good points andydean, couldn't have said it better myself

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/28/2014:  01:03:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by andydean

 when you shift you can get some great long slides that sound cool.

 

---

I like sliding my double stops up to third position and back down. Sometimes I slide into second position with the double stops from either first or third position.

Changing positions gives more possibilities for playin' licks..... 

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/28/2014:  01:52:53

I forgot to mention my slides when playing dom 7ths.

Say on the G chord first position......G. B....then slide into third for B. D. then up to 5th position for  D.F.

I do that with the double stop of the 6th also....E.C.....G.E........Bb.G... 

And 6ths can use a few finger combinations.......1.2......2.3......3.4.

And, in each case, if you slide up just two more positions you will get the notes for a flat 9 chord.

Edited by - chops_butcher on 04/28/2014 01:56:08

fujers - Posted - 04/28/2014:  20:59:34

Hey Henry, Glad you posted. But can you post an MP3 or vidio for us to hear you play? Jerry

fujers - Posted - 04/28/2014:  21:15:57

The 5th position is tuff for me for now. 4th I can handle. Tips I would appreciate. I use all fingers and I know how to play. But 5th position just escapes me. Most of the music you hear playing in 5th is mostly classical or jazz. Which do you play?

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/28/2014:  22:05:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Hey Henry, Glad you posted. But can you post an MP3 or vidio for us to hear you play? Jerry

---

My youtune account is attached to my profile......

edit

and check my favorites under 'playlists'

Edited by - chops_butcher on 04/28/2014 22:08:34

phiddlepicker - Posted - 04/29/2014:  17:47:34

Dunno...but it's essential if you wanna play Amarillo by Morning

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/29/2014:  18:36:22

Here is a guy named Billy just burning up Billy in the Low Ground in 3 rd position playin outta C... youtu.be/XFqjOUCG0Bw

fujers - Posted - 04/29/2014:  21:13:01

Good Henry. I noticed classical. I could tell it from your vibrato.  

Do you like Paganini. Did I spell that right?

Now I'm just a good ole' boy but I can play.

Paganini is the most important figure to ever grace the stage. You know why?

He understands fiddle playing. He understood double stops..in un heard positions. He understood how a simple melody could become gracious

He just knew. Listen to Caprice by Paganni you'll know.  Jerry

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/29/2014:  21:26:29

Yeah, I got the caprices by Paganini, on C.D and the musical notation..........I listened to his concertos too...

Inspiring aren't they.....!?

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/30/2014:  02:30:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Good Henry. I noticed classical. I could tell it from your vibrato.  

---

Well, no actually, not one iota of classical training.....Entirely self taught.

fujers - Posted - 04/30/2014:  08:23:53

Amazing, You play good. Wish I could play like that. I play more western swing, country things like that.

Who are your influences?

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/30/2014:  14:16:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Amazing, You play good. Wish I could play like that. 

 

---

Well....You can ! I believe any body could, if they wanted to.

Hey.....You could be my first student on skype....?

edit

Yeah, I will teach you how I play and you teach me how you play..........?

Edited by - chops_butcher on 04/30/2014 14:27:36

fujers - Posted - 04/30/2014:  14:26:34

Nope, I'm going to be teaching on skype myself. Good luck to you

chops_butcher - Posted - 04/30/2014:  14:28:45

 I will teach you how I play and you teach me how you play..........?

fujers - Posted - 04/30/2014:  14:40:22

Sounds good. Do we do it through skype?

pdfarrell - Posted - 05/01/2014:  12:32:50

Cool stuff fiddle folks.  Makes me want to try higher positions.  But my intonation in 1'st is still rather dodgy. Not sure I'm ready for it.

fujers - Posted - 05/01/2014:  13:11:54

Keep practicing. You'll get there

texasadam - Posted - 05/01/2014:  13:50:08

   Another good use of 3rd position (and others) is that it allows you to play a song in a different key without changing your finger patterns. I demonstrate... How far is it from 1st to 3rd position? A step and a half. How far is it from G to Bb? A step and a half. So if you know a song in G, and some folks you wanna play with play it in Bb, if you play those same fingerings but in 3rd position, you're playing it in Bb.

   The "gotcha" that I found with this is that once you get out of first position, the "normal" position for the 3rd finger is 3-high. In 1st position, the 3rd finger is generally in 3-low (yes, there are exceptions to this, but when teachers put tape on a beginner's fiddle, it's 3-low, so this I call "normal"). So you just have to know that if you're using this technique and it comes time to play the 3rd finger, it's going to be 3-low.

   Same thing goes for 2nd position, and any others. Say you know a song in D. Well that same finger pattern will let you play it in Eb (2nd position) and F (3rd position).

   An additional use of 3rd position that I didn't see posted is that you _have_ to play in 3rd for some double stops... take the intro to San Antonio Rose. On the E string, you can't play an F# and an A at the same time ;). The F# has to come from the A string (3rd finger, 3rd posiition) and the A is 1st finger on the E string.

Edited by - texasadam on 05/01/2014 13:50:45

chops_butcher - Posted - 05/01/2014:  15:46:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by pdfarrell

 

Cool stuff fiddle folks.  Makes me want to try higher positions.  But my intonation in 1'st is still rather dodgy. Not sure I'm ready for it.

---

You can begin learning higher positions as soon as you can play a few scales in first position, don't let 'dodgy' intonation hold you back. Intonation will improve as you practice the positions. Your progress will only depend on how you approach these aspects of fiddle playing. For rapid progress the approach must be structured and each aspect isolated....thus, focus on intonation then the shifting technique, and then they will merge.

fujers - Posted - 05/01/2014:  18:29:24

Good post fiddledam good post. Hey can you post something for us to listen too? I do like me a little western swing

fujers - Posted - 05/02/2014:  13:01:07

I'm giving a demo of how 3rd position works at 8pm. Those that are interested just click the MP3. Jerry

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/02/2014:  16:11:54

Texasadam...that was a nice explanation...gonna have to try these keys!

Antonio - Posted - 05/08/2014:  12:01:34

Um..............  what do three high and three low mean?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/08/2014:  15:27:53

It is referring to that the same finger is needed for 2 spots, adjacent notes. So a common in first position is that the second finger on A string in low - 2L - is the C note; in high 2H is a C#. - similarly three low -3L would be D note, three high - 3H would be D#/Eb.

Addie - Posted - 05/08/2014:  16:34:54

Well, you know, there is this...

Skye Music Shop has it.  So does Amazon and ebay.co.uk

Antonio - Posted - 05/09/2014:  08:37:28

Thanks alaskafiddler,  I'd never heard that term.

fujers - Posted - 05/13/2014:  19:26:00

This is third  position. Sorry for being so late I messed up my hand..still hurts but I'll be ok. Listen to it I think it will help. Jerry

Third Position

Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/31/2014:  09:58:06

I just played "Angelina Baker" in the 3rd position. I assumed in was in the key in is normally played. After a few seconds the grey matter kicked in and I started the tune on the "A" note on the G string. After that just intonation problems, but nothing that I can't fix pretty quickly. I practice playing 2 octave scales every day and play the keys of "C" and "D" in the 3rd position, so that helped.

In my case, I think using the 3rd position more will help improve intonation for some double stops. When I hear the average player change positions, I usually hear the tone suffer some. I will be more aggressive about playing in this position, but my main reason for doing this will be improve and maintain good intonation in up the neck double stops. So I will pick a tune or so in the 6 keys I practice (I.e. G, D, A, C, F and Bb) and add playing in the 3rd position to my daily practice regimen. Man, I am running out of day.

Notes are closer in the 3rd position, that makes notes easier to reach. But, I think it is easier to have intonation problems. Do players who play in the 3rd position a lot do a lot of "slipping and sliding" to correct intonation problems ?

fujers - Posted - 05/31/2014:  13:24:33

Dick, 3rd position is as hard as you make it. It's good that you are exploring it. Yes some fiddle playing side in to the correct ptch, but when you get it. You get it. Look at my first post on this subject. Use your open A as a guide for that matter any open string. You'll get it

Edited by - fujers on 05/31/2014 13:25:24

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 06/02/2014:  09:08:03

Hey Dick,

I'm learning Eighth of January for the june fiddle fest and decided to also learn it in 3rd position, you're right after a while the brain just starts to kick in and my fingers started doin their thing. I think the hardest part is when the next note is a fourth finger on the next string, my mind doesn't want to automatically go there yet.

Mark

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/02/2014:  11:58:00

Hey Mark -



Did you get the info on playing hornpipes ? Watch out, playing Irish tunes on the fiddle can be contagious.



For me, the biggest payback on practicing in the 3rd position will be better sounding double stops. Watching a bunch of Ian Walsh's instruction videos let me know that there are a lot of very useful bowing techniques I should work on. I have a half dozen or so of his Irish tunes, and just about all of the others. I could already play just about all the tunes for the videos I bought. But, after watching his videos, I am now playing the tunes better.  



I think I am just about to buy an old fiddle from Royce Burt. You should see the flaming in that wood. Even the neck. If it sounds half as good as it looks, I will be a very happy fiddler.  And, probably selling the one fiddle I have now.



 

Edited by - Dick Hauser on 06/02/2014 12:00:11

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 06/02/2014:  13:03:58

I did Dick, thanks! I'm not even going to start in on Irish music ... too many distractions from just trying to get better at bluegrass music ...

fujers - Posted - 06/02/2014:  17:12:23

Mark, You'll get it