alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2014:  16:22:18

So from the discussion of " Learning without a Teacher" - -differences of being formal teacher and self taught.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ludwigbartholdy

 

Interesting thread. My two cents: Can you learn without a teacher? Of course. Technique can be easily gained by dedicated self-study. Musicality, however, is a different thing altogether. I think this is where a teacher might help out. Also, a student can improve faster with the guidance of a teacher. Sometimes you need another pair of ears to point out your mistakes and/or areas for improvement.

---

Actually, technique is learned much better and quicker from a teacher, otherwise bad habits, posture and all sorts of mayhem can get ingrained in you, whereas musicality is a mix of opinions, taste and a good ear. Even people who can't play a note on a piano can have musicality and I've seen people with no musicality try in vain for years trying to 'get it'. It just ain't their thing - they need to pick up golf or bowling, but they'll never play music.

---

Got me thinking what do folks mean by musicality? And what role does formal teaching, or not, play?

In the two examples above - seems to point to two different ideas.

The former seems to go hand in hand with Formal Teacher Directed model, which IMO spends the vast amount of time teaching technique; and then music theory largely in a similar method and related to technical. Musicality seems to be about knowing lot's of music theory, knowing every imaginable scale, arpeggio, mode, chord, time signatures... and then some basic written "rules" about how those work; (and maybe for advanced study a complex expansion of that). Often complexity is associated with musicality.

The latter - while that theory knowledge can be useful to know, it isn't necessarily required to know, musicality is something separate from that; one can lack much of any formal theory and still have a strong musicality.  Further it's not directly connected to complexity.

The statements about aspect of making mistakes and by implication what the "right" notes are points to some of the differences. One has to do with being formally "taught" - teacher defined (that the student wouldn't know unless defined for them); or that it fits the memorized "rules".  - By contrast, someone with the latter sense of musicality, is more based on just listening and to hear if it makes musical sense (based on experience of listening to music); or if it just doesn't sound quite right, if not wrong. As MadBaloney mentioned, even folks who don't make music can have this. When it comes to learning an instrument, some folks start with and tap into that sense of musicality to strongly guide them (they have a strong idea of how it's supposed to sound).

As MadBaloney mentioned, I too have observed folks that have had lot's of formal training, yet lack a very strong sense of musicality; while others with very little training (or technical skills) seem to exhibit a lot of it.

Just some of my observations, and curiosity of what folks think of as musicality.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/26/2014:  17:04:51

Wiki' says - Musicality is a noun that means sensitivity to, knowledge of, or talent for music. The word also refers to the quality or state of being musical (aka melodiousness[clarification needed]). A musical person has the ability to perceive differences in aspects of music including pitch, rhythm and harmonies. One usually differentiates between two types of musicality: To be able to perceive music (musical receptivity) and to be able to reproduce music as well as creating music (musical creativity).

That pretty much is what I would have said musicality means, and even before I read it I figured formal training had little to nothing to do with it in many many people including nearly everyone in my family on both sides. I also think everyone can learn to do what is an ancient ancestral thing for humans - make music. Or dance :-)

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/26/2014:  18:14:37

Never heard of musicality...learned a new word tonight.  But I gotta say I've never believed in stuff like that, or stuff like "talent."  Anybody really good always says the same thing: they worked very hard to play what they can play, or as Doc Watson put it: " You practice like the devil!"  To me, obsession is a better concept: what is it that makes some people obsess over playing an instrument?  My husband is the only person in my life who knows how messed up I get when there's no time for music...speaking if which, I've got some time now--- should go work on maiden's prayer before I wear out--- gotta get up extra early tomorrow...lots to do! Excuse me while I indulge in obsession!

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 03/26/2014 18:16:01

saltcured - Posted - 03/26/2014:  18:20:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

I figured formal training had little to nothing to do with it in many many people including nearly everyone in my family on both sides.

---

Same here

boxbow - Posted - 03/26/2014:  18:57:09

My sense of "musicality" is that it assumes some sort of natural as well as, or even instead of, trained ability in one or more aspects of the musical experience.  Not just performance, but listening or dancing or I know not what.

manhac - Posted - 03/26/2014:  19:58:36

"Never heard of musicality...learned a new word tonight.  But I gotta say I've never believed in stuff like that, or stuff like "talent.""

So you have obviously not met people yet who cannot tap their foot along with the beat? Or cannot march with march music? Or cannot dance in rhythm? This is what basic musicality is all about.

When I was young, I had two friends who practiced guitar and bass like crazy and were technical wizards.

However, nobody wanted to play with them because they could not HEAR or FEEL the BEAT.

Edited by - manhac on 03/26/2014 20:00:16

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2014:  20:31:40

What I think of as musicality has nothing to do with some concepts of "natural talent" - which I don't put much stock into either.

I do like the explanation of "-the ability to perceive differences in aspects of music including pitch, rhythm and harmonies"  but even more so, it's not just any pitches and rhythm, but that they are structured in a way to create some musical sense (intuitive, not analytical on paper), if not create a feeling (it speaks to them) or some sensory experience - the ability to perceive what the music/musician is communicating - which I always thought was common, the reason folks enjoy music, and certainly prerequisite for wanting to learn to play an instrument, and a foundation to build off of. But maybe not, I have ran into quite a few folks that don't seem to have that perception (or at least don't tap into it). I do wonder if lacking that, can it really be taught to them?

fujers - Posted - 03/26/2014:  20:56:10

Alaska, You've made this a very nice post.

To me, This is what you posted "What I think of as musicality has nothing to do with some concepts of "natural talent" - which I don't put much stock into either"



Stands against music or what I call music. The whole concept of music is enjoyment..to you, others.



Without music we would all be nuts!



Remember the movie "RED VIOLIN"



In case you don't



There's this Strad been made a hundred years earlier. It passes through hand after hand through the years.



It makes it's way to this little boy...a little boy!



He becomes famous...I can't remember



Alaska, I think you are important to this and every post. You know why? You post the facts



Dry I might add..but the facts



Would love to met you one day



However, The fore mentioned statement from you I don't agree with

Natural talent is everywhere man! I don't care if it has nothing to do with music at all. Look

I got fired up...I don't know why

Jerry

PS. Never mind

SamY - Posted - 03/26/2014:  21:06:28

It amazes me that some people don't believe that some people have more natural music talent than others.  I'm beginning to suspect that those who don't believe in it have a big dose of it.

eeee - Posted - 03/26/2014:  21:28:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Never heard of musicality...learned a new word tonight.  But I gotta say I've never believed in stuff like that, or stuff like "talent."  Anybody really good always says the same thing: they worked very hard to play what they can play, or as Doc Watson put it: " You practice like the devil!"  To me, obsession is a better concept: what is it that makes some people obsess over playing an instrument?  My husband is the only person in my life who knows how messed up I get when there's no time for music...speaking if which, I've got some time now--- should go work on maiden's prayer before I wear out--- gotta get up extra early tomorrow...lots to do! Excuse me while I indulge in obsession!

---

I agree with you when you say what "talent" really means is a lot of practice. For non experts in any field there is a general belief that people with "talent" are born to it. The fact is anybody must work very hard to achieve skills. Even prodigies spend all their time doing what they do. But why will someone work hard at it? Where does the motivation come from? I think there are innate traits, aptitude and motivation, that allow some people to get more from their effort in a given area than others. I would never discourage anyone from persuing a musical interest, but I know some people will go farther than others.

My answer is to the original question is that musicality describes a knack, or talent if you will, that some people possess in greater degree than average. With effort that knack allows one to eventually play with greater freedom and imagination, or musicality.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/26/2014:  23:17:34

I've always thought of musicality as a musicians ability to make good music.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/27/2014:  01:16:24

I think of it as the ability to convey some kind of emotion with music or singing.

My dad had it.  In a way, he didn't seem to have much musical talent- he could sing "The Buffalo Skinners" and that was all.  Couldn't play an instrument.

But he could whistle in a way that seemed to make him feel good and made us feel good too.

And, actually, I think when he sang the Buffalo Skinners, he conveyed the emotion pretty well too.

Musicality has a lot to do with phrasing.  It's a way of phrasing that lifts the tune out of the precise and rather dead sounding mathematics of how it's notated musically, and turns it into something that moves people in some way.

Because it's hard to quantify mathematically, I think it's difficult to teach, and is more likely something that some people can do intuitively.

irfiddler - Posted - 03/27/2014:  01:32:52

Alaska, I always read your posts...and i always learn from them .... even  though I'm not ashamed to admit that some of them are over my head.

  The first time I heard the term "Musicality"  was at a California Fiddle Contest a few years ago.   One of the judges told me  that he felt the scoring criteria should include a category for  "Musicality".   I wish I'd asked him what he meant, and next time I see him, I will ask him for his definition. 

 . To put it in the most basic of  terms, to me, musicality means that regardless of the technical level of the musician, the music  they're  playing engages most of the listeners at some fairly deep level.    . They will signal that they're enjoying the music by tapping their toe or swaying.  If it's a slow air or a waltz, they might get a dreamy look.

 The best example of this that I can think of happened a couple of years ago  at a music festival when half a dozen fiddlers were onstage taking turns  playing their version of a well known hoedown. Some of the fiddlers often won in contests - and they played beautifully, but the audience was getting a bit bored with the same tune.  Then one fiddler who had been playing for about 5 years and wasn't technically as good as the others, reluctantly  took her turn.  Almost immediately, the tune took on a life of it's own - a different sound - it was infectious.  I've thought of this many times since.  Would that be musicality?

(Incidentally, correct me if I'm wrong, but as it stands now, the judges can give a maximum of 25 points each  for these 4 categories:  Difficulty, Old Time Style, Rhythm, and Clarity & Tone - for a total of 100 points.)

carlb - Posted - 03/27/2014:  05:02:58

Now, what musicality is not limited to what I'm about to describe, I think this is one aspect of it. For those who can read musical notation, you can look at a transcription of a tune for which there is no recorded version and come up with a version that has phrases and sounds like a flowing tune, and not stiff. I'm not sure how to describe it for those who do not read notation, but I found that, at least on the guitar, a good chord sense (that is to hear the chords from a single musical line) is also an indication of musicality and has nothing to do with technique.

 

boxbow - Posted - 03/27/2014:  05:46:53

I see two variants here.  One is to what degree music contains a structure apparent to the individual, the other is whether the individual can successfully communicate musically with another.  Both make sense, but my own sense of order suggests that they are two different things.  I'm not convinced they aren't the same thing, though.  Pretty slippery concept when you get down to it.

wooliver - Posted - 03/27/2014:  07:15:53

The ability to skillfully play music, is musicianship.

The ability to embody the elements of music, is musicality.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/27/2014:  13:12:41

If you want to develop musicality, I'd say listen to a lot of singers along with your fiddling, preferably in the same tradition you are aiming to play.

They don't have to be the best singers technically, but they need to be singers that can express emotion.

Violin/fiddle is one instrument that is very capable of imitating the human voice.  But you have to have a recording in your head of what singers you want to sound like.

The technical aspects of fiddling are daunting enough that's it easy to get engrossed in them, but at some point, it helps to thing of the fiddle as a singing voice.... or a whistling one!

Singing fiddlers include:  Bruce Molsky, Suzy Thompson (Bay Area), Alice Gerard, Bevery Smith, and of course, Allison Krauss!

And there were Mike Seeger, Roger Miller (do a search on his name and Orange Blossom Special on YouTube!) and Tommy Jarrell.

I think a lot of B.B. King's success as a guitarist was because he was a singer, and because he thought of his guitar "Lucille" as being a responsive voice in the call-and-response tradition of so much African-American music.

I think it probably helped me with Old Time that I had heard and enjoyed Jeannie Ritchie's singing (traditional Kentucky folk singer) before I ever attempted to play Old Time fiddle.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/27/2014 13:16:45

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/27/2014:  17:48:02

I've always had trouble tapping my foot or marching to the beat.  Can not dance at all.  

fiddlinglassblower - Posted - 03/28/2014:  07:19:14

I think musicality comes primarily from our parents and/or any close relatives or even friends with a passion for music. My mother played piano classically, so we grew up with that. I had a record of Beethoven's Fifth I used to listen to at age 5, I believe. There was never any effort to push me into playing an instrument. When I was 8, they were offering violin lessons for the 3rd grade at that particular school (we were only there 1 year), and I decided on my own to play the violin. Unknown to me, my great-grandfather played the violin, and his violin was in storage. The following year, that violin was retrieved from an attic, and fixed up for me. I already the passion for music, now it just needed to be brought out. That is where the technical aspect comes into play. Lots and lots of practice, and I did it without any prompting. Later, beginning in the 7th grade I had my first private lessons. Other than that first year, where I just learned the basics, I had only played in school bands or orchestras. Under the guidance of my teacher, I advanced very rapidly. In the tenth grade, he was preparing me to enter a contest, the winner of which would perform with the New Haven Symphony. However, I went away to a private school, so that ended that, although I continued playing on my own, eventually discovering fiddle music. But that's a different story.

DeamhanFola - Posted - 03/30/2014:  07:48:00

Itzhak Perlman was on the NPR programme 'Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" yesterday, and he actually used the term with reference to the player's enjoyment of the music s/he is playing (among some of the other facets raised previously in the thread).

I think that's an important aspect of it it the classical world in particular, where often very young people are battered within an inch of their lives with theory, scales, and regimented drills from the moment they first start playing. That can produce some very proficient and knowledgeable players who don't actually enjoy playing any longer, and who quit what appear to be promising careers.

Not saying that you shouldn't have any theory, but you should never forget to enjoy what your playing. Please yourself as well as your audience and teachers.

Dave S - Posted - 03/30/2014:  10:36:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Never heard of musicality...learned a new word tonight.  But I gotta say I've never believed in stuff like that, or stuff like "talent."  Anybody really good always says the same thing: they worked very hard to play what they can play, or as Doc Watson put it: " You practice like the devil!"  To me, obsession is a better concept: what is it that makes some people obsess over playing an instrument?  My husband is the only person in my life who knows how messed up I get when there's no time for music...speaking if which, I've got some time now--- should go work on maiden's prayer before I wear out--- gotta get up extra early tomorrow...lots to do! Excuse me while I indulge in obsession!

---

I agree with you when you say what "talent" really means is a lot of practice. For non experts in any field there is a general belief that people with "talent" are born to it. The fact is anybody must work very hard to achieve skills. Even prodigies spend all their time doing what they do. But why will someone work hard at it? Where does the motivation come from? I think there are innate traits, aptitude and motivation, that allow some people to get more from their effort in a given area than others. I would never discourage anyone from persuing a musical interest, but I know some people will go farther than others.

My answer is to the original question is that musicality describes a knack, or talent if you will, that some people possess in greater degree than average. With effort that knack allows one to eventually play with greater freedom and imagination, or musicality.

---

What you wrote above (I made it red) seems to me to be the essence of  talent. Same work, more progress.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/30/2014:  21:06:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



 

I've always had trouble tapping my foot or marching to the beat.  Can not dance at all.  

---

THAT is one of the symptoms of dyscalculia.  Another one is musical giftedness.  In dyscalculics, the music gifting just doesn't come out of the feet very well, but it flows out of the hands just fine!

Other things on the checklist:

Poor sense of the passage of time

Transpose numbers

Forget numbers- hard time memorizing multiplication tables.

Can't do math in head

Some have a language gifting or are very verbal.

Having heard your recordings, I'd say you play with plenty of musicality!

 

Henry - Posted - 03/31/2014:  01:33:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



 

I've always had trouble tapping my foot or marching to the beat.  Can not dance at all.  

---

THAT is one of the symptoms of dyscalculia.  Another one is musical giftedness.  In dyscalculics, the music gifting just doesn't come out of the feet very well, but it flows out of the hands just fine!

 

---

HeHe, I just checked that on WIKI, does'nt mention anything about toe tapping, but does mention....Difficulty reading musical notation.......lol...where do you get your info from.....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyscalculia

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/31/2014:  04:15:13

Weird... Yes I have always been terrible at math--- however, I do read faster than any other person I've seen, if that makes up for it.  Generally I can get through a couple hundred pages in an hour, IF, the book is interesting to me and I get lost in it and it's nonfiction.  I don't read fiction because you have to read it slow, and my mind drifts away if I try to read slow.  But math almost kept me from graduating high school and also gave me terrible problems in college...lol!  I was a map tech for a few years  in my 30s ( had to pass a test to get the job-- the test was easy for me, and I was told later it was sort of a non-arithmetic evaluation of your trigonometry skills--- weird again, because I know nothing of trigonometry and never got past basic arithmetic courses which I flunked and had to retake several times--- you know, the stories about Farmer Brown calculating how many pies can come from his orchard or how many gallons of paint Ralph needs for his square living room, etc.  I never did figure all that junk out and spent many summers going to summer school after flunking the entire 8 th grade and my parents wanting me to get through and get a diploma before I was 30 years old!!!  Lol...I did!). Yet at times hubby will be penciling away, figuring up a carpentry problem and I just pull the correct answer from thin air, no pencil, no figuring, I just know it sometimes--- he gets done calculating and I got it right--- we usually just laugh it off as more weirdness between me and math!  Interesting, but could my lack of math comprehension make me so terrible at tapping my toes or trying to dance???

Peghead - Posted - 03/31/2014:  09:59:53

To me, musicality is a measure of a persons innate ability to communicate musically. For those fortunite people it seems that the instrument is just a technicality. I personally think one of the biggest elements is a natural sense of rhythm/ meter, but it's a combination of things. People have different amounts of brain real estate wired for sound, and there's the emotional component too. I've noticed that some are able to play something that draws you in even if they are relative beginners or have technical shortcomings. 

Edited by - Peghead on 03/31/2014 10:05:33

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/31/2014:  12:29:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry George

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



 

I've always had trouble tapping my foot or marching to the beat.  Can not dance at all.  

---

THAT is one of the symptoms of dyscalculia.  Another one is musical giftedness.  In dyscalculics, the music gifting just doesn't come out of the feet very well, but it flows out of the hands just fine!

 

---

HeHe, I just checked that on WIKI, does'nt mention anything about toe tapping, but does mention....Difficulty reading musical notation.......lol...where do you get your info from.....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyscalculia

 

---

I did a Google search on it years ago and found a site with a symptom checklist.... unfortunately,  I can't find the checklist now.

However, the checklist matched my symptoms to a T, so I pretty much memorized it.  For instance, the single hardest thing about learning to play the drums is the foot coordination...it's all I can do to maintain a right-left/ bass-highhat sequence!!!  Anything that requires me to add bass thumps or remove bass thumps tends to bring things to a screeching halt!  And foot coordination was the single hardest thing in learning to drive... I got it eventually, but I took about a year longer than normal!!!

I DO have difficulty reading musical notation- not the notes as pitch values, but the notes as time values are very difficult.  Fortunately, I did take clarinet when young, and if the music is pretty basic rhythmically, like most fiddle tunes are, I can read it.   Basically a single dotted something-or-other works if it's the ONLY one for measures!  Or if the same dotted rhythm repeats over and over again, I can get it.... and it really helps if I've heard the tune!!!

(In band playing the clarinet, I was often actually learning by ear...)

And very often when playing fiddle, I'll screw up the foot tapping.... sometimes it's on the downbeat, sometimes on the backbeat... some days it goes pretty well, and other days it's HOPELESS!!!  Learning the drums DOES seem to have improved it some.

One of the difficulties with dyscalculia is that not everyone has precisely the same symptoms, or equally severe.  Maybe because my dad was an accountant, and pushed me hard and early on math, I can cope better than some, but I'm still VERY slow and it really needs to be on paper. And I'm very prone to dialing wrong numbers if I don't right them down, because the numbers will flip around, unless I use memory tricks.

Likewise, I think because foreign languages are so undervalued in the U.S., many people don't discover their language giftedness because they've never tried to learn one, or just have zero motivation.   Giftedness doesn't do you much good if you don't try AT ALL!!!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/31/2014:  13:05:04

To be clear, I don't see brain wiring as being totally set in concrete... there is a certain amount of reprogramming that can take place with extra motivation and extra work.

But it's not going to get you as far as someone who's gifted in that area, and is ALSO motivated, and ALSO does the work.  But it might get you to "decent".

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/31/2014:  13:18:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Weird... Yes I have always been terrible at math--- however, I do read faster than any other person I've seen, if that makes up for it.  Generally I can get through a couple hundred pages in an hour, IF, the book is interesting to me and I get lost in it and it's nonfiction.  I don't read fiction because you have to read it slow, and my mind drifts away if I try to read slow.  But math almost kept me from graduating high school and also gave me terrible problems in college...lol!  I was a map tech for a few years  in my 30s ( had to pass a test to get the job-- the test was easy for me, and I was told later it was sort of a non-arithmetic evaluation of your trigonometry skills--- weird again, because I know nothing of trigonometry and never got past basic arithmetic courses which I flunked and had to retake several times--- you know, the stories about Farmer Brown calculating how many pies can come from his orchard or how many gallons of paint Ralph needs for his square living room, etc.  I never did figure all that junk out and spent many summers going to summer school after flunking the entire 8 th grade and my parents wanting me to get through and get a diploma before I was 30 years old!!!  Lol...I did!). Yet at times hubby will be penciling away, figuring up a carpentry problem and I just pull the correct answer from thin air, no pencil, no figuring, I just know it sometimes--- he gets done calculating and I got it right--- we usually just laugh it off as more weirdness between me and math!  Interesting, but could my lack of math comprehension make me so terrible at tapping my toes or trying to dance???

---

Yeah, our brains are wired in a very similar way... I think your math disability is even a little more severe than mine.   I read quickly, but not as quickly as you do.  And I don't usually like fiction either.  I couldn't do word problems either, but if you give me the numbers, I can usually do the math on paper... but VERY SLOWLY. (In any math test, I'd always be the LAST to turn my paper in.)  The checklist I saw years ago included "two left feet" as part of the checklist.  It's not the CAUSE of the math disability, but whatever caused the math disability often causes that too, apparently often a head injury) It's like my feet belong to a different person....they aren't very well connected to the brain!!!  The intuitive math thing is pretty amazing though!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/31/2014:  13:29:31

The poor foot coordination evidently doesn't show up all the time, but often enough to get talked about on dyscalculia forums:

dyscalculiaforum.com/forum/vie...d_id=6469

Henry - Posted - 03/31/2014:  13:36:16

If you can HUM, aloud or in your head, you got musicality........

eeee - Posted - 03/31/2014:  14:11:10

If you can play or sing without any backup keeping good time you've got it.

Ever try to sing in church (it's been a loooong time for me) and notice the phrases get pushed into each other because everybody has to follow the singers with no sense of time who rush to the next phrase? I think a good sense of timing is really key to musicality.

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 03/31/2014:  15:56:04

That is enough of the opinions of what it means.. Now.. What exactly Does it mean???? Is there a consensus?

DougD - Posted - 03/31/2014:  16:11:55

Lee, do you not have Google where you live? Here is the definition:   google.com/search?q=musicality...firefox-a  Click the down arrow.

I don't see any reason to argue with that. Its just a word.

Edited by - DougD on 03/31/2014 16:18:59

dogmageek - Posted - 03/31/2014:  18:18:32

I'm working on supermusicality ...

yeah



 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/01/2014:  04:00:20

Wow, Pogo!  I think you've taught me something about myself!  I've also done really well whenever I took languages.  

change is good - Posted - 04/01/2014:  07:10:58

...in the state of melodiousness.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2014:  11:34:51

I wasn't looking for specific definition, nor interested about semantics of it - rather the statements regarding musicality and a teacher; and that ludwigbartholdy and MadBaloney were probably talking about 2 different things. I think represented by wooliver's difference;  

The ability to skillfully play music, is musicianship.

The ability to embody the elements of music, is musicality.

As Brad pointed out, there is this aspect of whether folks seem to "get it"  - speaking to the latter; how the music sounds and feels; not just the technical theory, definitions, on paper conformity.

Using that difference, IMO, most formal teachers lessons are just about teaching musicianship. Even self-directed folks might just focus on musicianship. Certainly if the student starts with high degree of musicality - that learning musicianship is maybe all they need (whichever path they choose).

But got me wondering, what can a self -directed student do to develop musicality (or to "get it"), and in what ways can a teacher or lessons help a student develop that musicality?

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 04/01/2014:  12:15:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

I wasn't looking for specific definition, nor interested about semantics of it - rather the statements regarding musicality and a teacher; and that ludwigbartholdy and MadBaloney were probably talking about 2 different things. I think represented by wooliver's difference;  

The ability to skillfully play music, is musicianship.

The ability to embody the elements of music, is musicality.

As Brad pointed out, there is this aspect of whether folks seem to "get it"  - speaking to the latter; how the music sounds and feels; not just the technical theory, definitions, on paper conformity.

Using that difference, IMO, most formal teachers lessons are just about teaching musicianship. Even self-directed folks might just focus on musicianship. Certainly if the student starts with high degree of musicality - that learning musicianship is maybe all they need (whichever path they choose).

But got me wondering, what can a self -directed student do to develop musicality (or to "get it"), and in what ways can a teacher or lessons help a student develop that musicality?

---

For students, especially beginners, I'd say that playing with others can be of a big help..

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2014:  13:27:41

How so, in what way? That is someone who is not "getting it" missing some aspect of the music as a listener?

MikeyBoy - Posted - 04/01/2014:  13:55:32

Guided listening with a teacher (or at least with someone who understands musicality), to point out why something is or isn't "musical." Instill in the student that music isn't emulation and repetition and patterns and mechanics, but communication, and as such cadence and inflection are important, as is your "accent." musicality surfaces when you are playing with your entire body, not just your head and your hands, when you can express yourself through your instrument instead of just playing a piece of music on your instrument. Musicality comes with confidence of self and confidence of purpose. Get to a point where you can just let it flow, man.

thus concludes my stream of consciousness for the day. 

boxbow - Posted - 04/01/2014:  14:43:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

I wasn't looking for specific definition, nor interested about semantics of it - rather the statements regarding musicality and a teacher; and that ludwigbartholdy and MadBaloney were probably talking about 2 different things. I think represented by wooliver's difference;  

The ability to skillfully play music, is musicianship.

The ability to embody the elements of music, is musicality.

As Brad pointed out, there is this aspect of whether folks seem to "get it"  - speaking to the latter; how the music sounds and feels; not just the technical theory, definitions, on paper conformity.

Using that difference, IMO, most formal teachers lessons are just about teaching musicianship. Even self-directed folks might just focus on musicianship. Certainly if the student starts with high degree of musicality - that learning musicianship is maybe all they need (whichever path they choose).

But got me wondering, what can a self -directed student do to develop musicality (or to "get it"), and in what ways can a teacher or lessons help a student develop that musicality?

---

For students, especially beginners, I'd say that playing with others can be of a big help..

---

I believe that reading music to play promotes more musicianship, as defined above.  I find that sight-reading in particular causes me to play note by note rather than in phrases.  My recall of the music is poorer.  My access is greater.

Playing and learning by ear promotes more musicality, then, because I find that I have a span of attention available for the musical phrases themselves, including major and minor rhythms, chord structure and double-stops, call and response with other players.  I've learned a few tunes at one sitting, but only under conditions of learning by ear.

That being said, I believe both talents are darned useful in any measure if you like to play music.

wooliver - Posted - 04/02/2014:  08:12:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler 

But got me wondering, what can a self -directed student do to develop musicality (or to "get it"), and in what ways can a teacher or lessons help a student develop that musicality?

---

I like to use the term "absorbtion" when it comes to Music. Not personal experience, but i do know that Music majors usually take Music appreciation class early on. Never touching an instrument, but hopefully learning how to absorb Music. Much the same way someone living down in a hollar would grow up around his family playing music, if they did. Weather it gets absorbed or not, the musical presents has to be there.

I surely admire your wanting to be a better teacher. It would almost be like one's first music lesson should be to listen to music with the student. See what, if any type music makes them respond, and to what degree. How many piano teacher to this day, throw down the chopin method, and dismiss initial reactions. "This is how you will be taught piano, if i am teaching you." That doesn't seem very sensitive, to getting the first job of absorbtion accomplished. I don't think Musicality is something to be earned. Where we all eventually find that musicianship is the thing we may earn.

ChickenMan - Posted - 04/02/2014:  15:42:32

The term is used in the dance world too. A choreographer strives for musicality in the dances they choreograph. How does that fit into the definitions here?

eeee - Posted - 04/02/2014:  16:05:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan



The term is used in the dance world too. A choreographer strives for musicality in the dances they choreograph. How does that fit into the definitions here?

---

Timing and phrasing.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/03/2014:  00:25:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

I wasn't looking for specific definition, nor interested about semantics of it - rather the statements regarding musicality and a teacher; and that ludwigbartholdy and MadBaloney were probably talking about 2 different things. I think represented by wooliver's difference;  

The ability to skillfully play music, is musicianship.

The ability to embody the elements of music, is musicality.

As Brad pointed out, there is this aspect of whether folks seem to "get it"  - speaking to the latter; how the music sounds and feels; not just the technical theory, definitions, on paper conformity.

Using that difference, IMO, most formal teachers lessons are just about teaching musicianship. Even self-directed folks might just focus on musicianship. Certainly if the student starts with high degree of musicality - that learning musicianship is maybe all they need (whichever path they choose).

But got me wondering, what can a self -directed student do to develop musicality (or to "get it"), and in what ways can a teacher or lessons help a student develop that musicality?

---

I told you.... listen to singers.   Singers tend to naturally express emotion and avoid mechanical phrasing... maybe because singing is an extension of speech, and we are always inflecting our voices to express one emotion or another.

I say this because I had a major epiphany about this.   I was about 24, had been fiddling for 4 years.   I went to my favorite folk club in L. A. but was a bit disappointed that it was a singer that night, and no fiddler with them.   But at the jam afterwards, it dawned on me that my fiddle was like my second voice, and I needed to just let it sing.   And I remember playing well that night.

One adjective for a musician who is playing with musicality is "lyrical" as in "So-and-so gave a lyrical performance".

Old Timer banjo players used to say "That feller can make a banjer TALK".  Same idea-  the instrument becomes a second voice, with very nearly the expressive flexibility of the first one.

The thing is, you can't teach this the same way you teach the mechanics of musicianship.... because there aren't any mechanics to it in one sense.   It's some kind of quantum leap forward where you take the mere mechanics and you start using them in a different way... instead of perfection being the goal, expression is the goal.  And you can only "catch" that from people who are already doing it.... either singers, or other instrumentalists who play lyrically, as if their instrument were a voice.

Another insight:

Around 1999, I got into electric guitar, and around 2001, I was at a blues jam. After the jam I was talking with the past president of the local blues society.

He shared a story where he'd been hanging out with an old bluesman, when the bluesman uttered this nugget.

"Blues is all about expressing emotion, but you white guys make it all about notes!"

And when I heard that, I had to say that by and large, IT"S TRUE!!!!

Anglo-American culture tends to focus on quantifiable stuff like technique.  Shredding guitar is the extreme result of this.

After awhile though... I realized that really, ALL MUSIC is about expressing emotion, and if we stop short of that, we really haven't taken music far enough to where it fulfills it's REAL purpose.

One of the reason American guitarists have a hard time expressing emotions is that so many of us are GUYS and have been taught to stuff our emotions.  If you don't allow yourself to weep under ANY circumstance,  how can you make your guitar weep? (Gently or otherwise!)

One reason for focusing on musicianship rather than musicality is that musicianship IS somewhat quantifiable, and it's easier to put a price tag on something quantifiable.

The person who teaches you musicianship may take years and could charge you thousands of dollars to do so.

The person who inspires you to musicality MIGHT do it in 10 seconds and may not be in a teacher student relationship to you, in fact, may not even have met you.   But they taught you something that may be just as valuable if not more valuable than the musicianship, because without it, the musicianship is rather sterile.

As far as fiddling, I can distinctly remember certain performances that triggered deep emotion:

Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham... one particular cut on the County albums, can't remember which one though!

Then they did it again at Galax playing Big Eyed Rabbit.

Luther Strong did it, I think with "Glory at the Meeting House".

Franklin George's playing did it too.

An album of Swedish fiddling did too, and various Irish fiddlers and pipers have evoked intense emotions.

IMO, if you don't have positive emotional reactions to other peoples playing, you probably won't think of music as being an essentially emotional thing.

There is also the aspect of getting stuck in our analytical brains.  (however you prefer to say that)

The emotions don't reside there, and if the playing is controlled entirely by our analytical mind, real musicality is going to go missing... it will sound sterile.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/03/2014 00:28:43

Henry - Posted - 04/03/2014:  01:01:45

I believe this is one of your best posts Pogo.....he's right about the singers...in any genre...!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/03/2014:  11:46:35

Thanks

.... but I left something out... it needed kind of a nutshell summary:

1. Musicianship- establishing physical control over the instrument.

2. Musicality- putting that control into the hands of your heart, soul, and emotions.

Oh yeah, you said.... "the singers.... in any genre".... it IS genre specific-  there are genre-based ways of modeling the fiddle after each genre's best singers.

When I first started listening to Irish Trad music, I listened to some Folkways albums of it- and they didn't just feature fiddlers, they had recorded little old Irish ladies singing traditional Irish songs, sometimes song versions of dance tunes ( The Frost is All Over, Lanigan's Ball).... and I can hear a connection between the best singers and the best Irish fiddlers.   There is also a connection between Old Time fiddling, especially when done slowly, and Old Time ballad singing style.  And I can hear a resemblance between the violin and operatic singing style... and for that matter, screaming rock guitar leads and screaming rock singers!  And the best (i.e. most emotional) blues guitarists and the best blues singers.

Part of my occasional irritation with violinists turned fiddlers is that they sometimes tend to import the flavor of an operatic singing style into genres where the singing style has nothing to do with opera!  They need to listen to the new genre's singers to help break that tendency.

For instance, a violinist wanting to get a more authentic phrasing in Old Time tunes would do well to listen to Jean Ritchie, Almeida Riddle, and Cary Fridley, and not just fiddlers.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 04/03/2014:  23:11:01

To me, musicality is the ability to spin a tale from the notes.  To tell a story.  To express or embody an emotion, whatever that emotion might be.  To understand that music is more than just a succession of notes or measures.  To understand that music is expressed in a succession of phrases, phrases which build upon the phrases that went before, not just parrot them. 

Bradford - Posted - 04/12/2014:  06:07:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

How so, in what way? That is someone who is not "getting it" missing some aspect of the music as a listener?

---

I would generally say that they are, but every case is different.

Firstly, there are people who think they've 'got it' already, they have stopped listening and learning. On the other end of the spectrum are people who are so timid and shy that they just can't get over themselves to play anything with any conviction.

Then there are people who are barking up the wrong tree, maybe they are really interested in bluegrass, but turn up at the OT jam or at an Irish session. Some may have no respect, some might honestly not know the difference. Both are hopeless.

Lord knows I made my share of mistakes coming up, but the wise man learns from other peoples mistakes.