fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/17/2014:  12:21:57

So I was watching a really cool interview between Darol Anger and Mike Barnett (fiddler from deadly gentleman, david grisman quartet) and they were talking about improvising over a dominant chord. Mike shows some really interesting modal scales that he used. 

So my question aside from blatantly copying him (which I will do), how do I go about figuring out when I can use what modal scales over a chord. 

Edited by - fiddlinsteudel on 03/17/2014 12:22:53

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/17/2014:  13:25:27

That method, if I understand what you are asking, is reference to modes of the major scale; which the basics is essentially just follow the chord - so it coincides with the number of the chord. With G major as example

First mode - Ionian - I chord - G chord

Second mode - Dorian - ii chord - Am

Third mode - Phrygian - iii chord - Bm

Fourth mode - Lydian - IV chord - C

Fifth mode - Mixolydian - V(7) chord - D(7)

Sixth mode - Aeolian - vi chord - Em -

Seventh mode - Locorian - vii chord - F#dim (or half dim?)

So a I-IV-V; G/C/D - you would be using G Ionian scale; C Lydian and D Mixolydian.

There are variations to the above - like when a chord progression uses a cycle of ascending fifths chord progression- G-E7-A7-D7 - all of those after G are a V7 of the next chord; and often then might use all mixolydian scales. Even if like on a bridge going from I to I7 to IV.

Keep in mind -this is somewhat different than when folks (like Irish/OT) refer to tunes/melodies being modal, or in a mode.

 

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/17/2014:  13:48:17

SoI went back and listened, and over the D, he talks about playing a:

A melodic minor - D lydian dominant

Why does that work?

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/17/2014:  13:51:15

Another one he talked about using was the Diminished Whole Tone Scale ....

Beachbum Scott - Posted - 03/17/2014:  18:28:09

I tried to learn this Modes stuff for guitar but it never really stuck seeing as I don't really improvise solos over someone playing chords...

This should explain how the modes over D works if I remember what the class was teaching me... 

mandolincafe.com/niles2.html

Henry - Posted - 03/18/2014:  02:48:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

SoI went back and listened, and over the D, he talks about playing a:

A melodic minor - D lydian dominant

Why does that work?

---

Because any scale works if it employs the chord tones of D...................

JHDuncan - Posted - 03/18/2014:  12:31:19

For what tunes/songs?

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/18/2014:  12:33:23

Anything. I'm just looking at adding some different colors to my improvising.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/18/2014:  13:26:27

Melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished whole tone.... what kind of music are you thinking this stuff will fit into? Those minor keys are very Eastern sounding and that whole tone scale, other than some out there jazz, I can't think of a time when I've needed that one. BTW my opinions are mostly informed by thirty some years of improvising on guitar, not fiddle.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/18/2014:  13:29:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan



Melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished whole tone.... what kind of music are you thinking this stuff will fit into? Those minor keys are very Eastern sounding and that whole tone scale, other than some out there jazz, I can't think of a time when I've needed that one. BTW my opinions are mostly informed by thirty some years of improvising on guitar, not fiddle.

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Bluegrass ... I'l see if I can screencast some of the solo he uses it on. Obviously it's more newgrass/jazz sort of bluegrass than straight ahead trad. but I like that sort of thing.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/18/2014:  14:41:37

As for how do you figure out what works... Geez, I can't think of a better way than to try different modes over some 'standard' bluegrass changes. First you need to be very familiar with the modes you choose to use as the ones you listed are mostly outside of the usual major scale whole tone half tone layout. I would go with the minor one as it will likely sound/feel the most familiar. Improvising takes some practice despite how oxymoronic that phrase seems.

fujers - Posted - 03/18/2014:  20:02:10

Mark, Beachbum Scott, Gave you the right place to look for these scales. I suggest you read and understand. Jerry

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/18/2014:  20:08:37

Thanks guys

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/18/2014:  21:42:21

Darol can get quite a bit "out-there" as compared to straight up BG, _and be forewarned - it's not to everyone's liking) - but he does know, can and has done straight up BG (IIRC he stared from that) -

Darol (and bandmates) gave a workshop here 2 months ago on improvising, and mentioned some of this - and someone asked the same thing as the OP - how and when do you apply them? Can't recall exact response; he did state it's something that can't be explained in a brief workshop; but he did mention starting with solid straight up BG models, understanding chord progressions and movement (in context of tune.melody) - major and minor pentatonic scales; getting solid with those and then the other starts making sense.

You can read all sorts of cool scales (and chords) - and certainly experiment, but without understanding the why, (what it's doing) you can also delve into the dangerous ground of it just sounds like random notes and have someone comment "that ain't no part of nothing"

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/18/2014 21:47:04

haggis - Posted - 03/19/2014:  06:29:20

Henry George,help me out here.For years I have been playing around , on guitar, with the idea that any substitute chord need only have 2 of the original chord tones.
Am I understanding you correctly? One can use any scale which includes the chord tones of the chord being played.
So ,a scale being a series of notes this seems to imply that chord tones plus any other notes of your choice can be used . ( Some being way out there obviously.) Is this the case?

RobBob - Posted - 03/19/2014:  09:08:53

The Fiddling Handbook by Craig Duncan gives extensive aide to improvisation.  It contains all of the scales in all of the modes as well as diminished and harmonic minor.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/19/2014:  09:27:04

Thanks RobBob.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/19/2014:  09:35:03

Hey RobBob,

Do you know if the CD provides samples for all of the content? One of the things I dislike is when they don't have sound samples for most of the stuff.  Like the hotlicks book that only has like half the licks. 

Thanks, Mark

Henry - Posted - 03/19/2014:  14:19:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by haggis

 

Henry George,help me out here.For years I have been playing around , on guitar, with the idea that any substitute chord need only have 2 of the original chord tones.

Am I understanding you correctly? One can use any scale which includes the chord tones of the chord being played.

So ,a scale being a series of notes this seems to imply that chord tones plus any other notes of your choice can be used . ( Some being way out there obviously.) Is this the case?

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I thought this was obvious.? Of course, depending on the scale that is chosen it will sound either oriental, folksy, bluesy, jazzy, etc....And it is a lot fun to use many scales over a one chord progression, then they can be superimposed, that's when it begins to sound really exotic. No matter which scale is played it will always require a resolution to a chordal tone, unless you are moving in the realms of atonal music, where anything goes..... 

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/19/2014:  15:03:39

@Henry - Do you have any suggestions on how to practice incorporating modal scales into a tune? Say something simple like Angeline baker?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/19/2014:  19:20:30

Do you have a lap dulcimer ?  That's the best way to learn how modes work, because you are just forced into it, the way the instrument is designed.  Especially with a dulcimer built without the half frets.

Henry - Posted - 03/19/2014:  22:25:51

quote: Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

@Henry - Do you have any suggestions on how to practice incorporating modal scales into a tune? Say something simple like Angeline baker?

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Well. it's a folk tune, OT, BG, whatever. It's a simple tune, doesn't imply anything else. Keep it simple and stay with in the modes implied by the chords, as George explained. Unless you want to sound jazzy or bluesy, then choose the scales to suit those genre. 

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/20/2014:  08:56:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Do you have a lap dulcimer ?  That's the best way to learn how modes work, because you are just forced into it, the way the instrument is designed.  Especially with a dulcimer built without the half frets.

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I don't have a dulcimer.

Henry - Posted - 03/20/2014:  14:17:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Do you have a lap dulcimer ?  That's the best way to learn how modes work, because you are just forced into it, the way the instrument is designed.  Especially with a dulcimer built without the half frets.

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I don't have a dulcimer.

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You gotta have one...!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/20/2014:  18:30:02

What GHP referred to with modes is slightly differnt than what Darol and Mike are referring to. Modal as a template for a whole tune; and just think of the whole tune as being Dorian or Ionian, or Mixolydian (despite what chord changes occur) - so improvising  something like Angelina Baker is just using the D Ionian notes, and not really thinking about doing Lydian when it goes to the G.

The other might be better understood as navigating through modes of the major, and easier to apply over something with a more distinctive chord progression; and where it stays on a chord a bit. Fiddle tunes can be tough to really get into that. Something like Foggy Mountain Breakdown though; just following the chords you would improvise over  the first mode (G Ionian scale); then the sixth mode of G (E Aeolian scale); then back to the first, then to the fifth mode (D Mixolydian scale) 

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 03/28/2014:  09:44:50

We all have our viewpoints which are all well and fine; however, I will use science to answer whether or not one should use a Lydian mode over a major chord.   Here's the set up for my experiment.  I walked to the piano in our music room.  Two people were sitting nearby, on the couch.  

1) I played an E Lydian mode--all white keys from E to E--and all notes were quarter notes.  

2) I began to accompany my scale with an E chord alongside each note, hitting the notes E, G#, and B with my left hand an octave below the Lydian mode being played by my right hand.

3) I began to hear comments like, "Are we practicing a new tune and hitting some wrong notes?"

4) I responded by emphasizing the G and A in the Lydian mode, both notes a semi-tone from the third note of the E chord G#.

5) I began to hear comments like, "Stop!!!  Practice your !@#$%$# jazz somewhere else."

6) I changed my accompanying chord to an E7, adding a D interspersed.

7) Responses were the same.

Conclusions.  The Lydian mode over either a major or seventh chord succeeds if the intent is to drive people out of the room so that you may eat all the pizza left in the fridge. 

Conclusions.  T

Bradford - Posted - 03/28/2014:  16:06:11

E to E on the white keys is E Phrygian

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/28/2014:  17:11:50

I'm sick of these phryggin'modes!

Humbled, try Em next time =-O

Henry - Posted - 03/28/2014:  17:51:31

The basic idea is to play only the notes in the key even when the chords change, and then one emphasizes the notes of  each chord as they move through a progression. So when the tune is in the tonic chord we can play all the notes in the key, which is the Ionian mode, with emphasis on the chord tones which are the 1, 3, 5, scales degrees. Usually, if we play a scale run, we would begin with the scale degree 1 and continue as far as desired. But, there is nothing stopping us to begin a run from the scale degree...3. Beginning on this note the scale can be renamed....the phrygian mode...over the tonic chord. Or, begin on degree 5, thats called the mixolydian mode. What if we begin on any note of the key other than a chord tone? Why not, will sound ok if the phrase is resolved to a chord tone. So then, depending on the note on which we begun, the scale receives it's name. So why bother about scale names in this concept, just stay with chord tones in the scale. But naming scales are very handy to know when one begins to 'superimpose' modes over any chord, such as the mixolydian over the tonic chord...you get the flat 7th using that mode. If the lydian mode is played over the tonic chord..you get the flat 5th, and should be treated as such. Dorian....flat 3rd and flat 7th. etc,etc,etc.....( now, retain the chord tones and change only the other notes in the scale, this will sound funky ).....Oh man, this has been explained in so many different ways, I will know it inside-out and back-to-front.         

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 03/28/2014:  22:08:23

quote:

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Originally posted by mad baloney

 

E to E on the white keys is E Phrygian

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I was testing to see if anyone was reading.  Good.    So I went from F to F whilst playing an F7 chord and...the universe exploded.  

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/29/2014:  14:49:24

Better be careful, Humbled!  Them modes is powerful dangerous stuff!

haggis - Posted - 04/14/2014:  09:52:34

Humbled, don't mean to sound like a smart ass but I think EFGABCDE is a Phrygian mode. The Lydian using only white keys is FGABCDEF. ( Sure hope I am Right) Either way I get your point.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 04/14/2014:  12:42:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by haggis

 

Humbled, don't mean to sound like a smart ass but I think EFGABCDE is a Phrygian mode. The Lydian using only white keys is FGABCDEF. ( Sure hope I am Right) Either way I get your point.

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Yep.  I was just testing to see if anyone actually was reading my Phryg'n mode of communicating.  And it's all good; I'm always glad when you get into the discussion and start talking about scales whether it be a mix o' Ionian or a mix o' Lydian; indeed, through whichever Dorian we need to go, we end up getting there.  Don't scale it back; keep it coming!

Don't put the lydian on the discussion...let it boil right over into whole, new tones and timbres.

Timbrrrrrrrrre!

Humbled

Henry - Posted - 04/14/2014:  17:23:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by haggis

 

Either way I get your point.

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I DON'T.....!?

boxbow - Posted - 04/15/2014:  07:07:20

I like the good ol' Subterranean Mode for that Underground Sound.  Far better than the Barbarian Mode, which is what I first learned to improvise in.

Blue - Posted - 04/15/2014:  12:33:01

I like to use the Rastafarian Mode when improvising on Bob Marley tunes.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/25/2014:  11:52:47

Do Modes only apply to the major scale,or can you apply them to harmonic minor,melodic minor,Neapolitan major/minor,blues,bebop,etc?

change is good - Posted - 04/25/2014:  12:22:29

I always sit on the com-Mode when I think things are starting to get backed up....

Henry - Posted - 04/25/2014:  19:19:29

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

Do Modes only apply to the major scale,or can you apply them to harmonic minor,melodic minor,Neapolitan major/minor,blues,bebop,etc?

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Howdy Pete, welcome to the forum.

Modes apply to every scale that exists, no matter how many notes there are in the scale.  Once the key and type of scale have been established, the modes of this scale use exactly the same notes but the tonic/home note is altered...

Thus if the scale notes are 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8...the next mode will be ..2.3.4.5.6.7.8.2...the next is...3.4.5.6.7.8.2.3....etc..

Usually these modes coincide with the chord changes in a tune. But, as in the major scale, the tune can be based on a mode....play the harmonic minor beginning on the 5th degree, I think this is called the 'Gypsy Minor'.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/26/2014:  00:22:42

Thanks Henry
Nice explanation ,its reassuring to know i'm thinking in the right direction rather than going up another blind alley

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 04/26/2014:  08:04:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

Do Modes only apply to the major scale,or can you apply them to harmonic minor,melodic minor,Neapolitan major/minor,blues,bebop,etc?

---

Hi, Pete!  Do you know the Myxlydian mode (sp)?  Use it over the 7th chords in a blues progression and it'll spice up your playing.  

The Dorian is used often over "Celtic" tunes and songs and adds a nice motif to minor meanderings.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/26/2014:  11:24:02

Hello Curt yep i like Mixolydian old time tunes , at least thats how i'm thinking of them,i think that sometimes they get mistaken for minor tunes,by jamming accompanyists,but like you say,good for blues as well.
Some Celtic Tunes seem to Switch back and forth between Modes usually using the C in one Phrase and the C# in the next,all good stuff!
ps really enjoying this website:o)

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/26/2014:  20:47:55

Hello again ive been trying to figure that out for ages(which modes go well with which chords for improvising constructing "licks" etc)
Best i've come up with so far is that the modes have a similar "function" to the chords,
in that they lead away or back to the tonic(or float around going nowhere).
so you can either go with the chords or against them or just stand still and let the chords do the work.
Thats my theory at the moment anyway,i just need another lifetime to do it ,
but as a friend of mine once said "if you're not making any mistakes,your'e doing f!** all."

Henry - Posted - 04/27/2014:  15:11:26

Usually the mode accompanies the chord depending on it's position in the key as Humbled stated........mixo over V7.etc.

But a whole new world opens up when modes are superimposed, such as in a blues tune all the primary chords could be dom 7ths, even if the rhythm  player doesn't use dom 7ths chords,  the soloist will sound very bluesy playin mixolydian modes over each chord. Thus...Achord=Amixo...Dchord=Dmixo....Echord=Emixo......   

Peghead - Posted - 05/14/2014:  07:46:44

I just posted these in the Tab Section/ Scales exercises/Intermediate

Modes

wooliver - Posted - 05/14/2014:  11:05:07

Another explanation/tutorial on modes:

mandolincafe.com/niles2.html

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/14/2014:  12:16:31

I realize this is a bit of a tall order but...
can anyone describe their (musical) thought processes as they are improvising,using modes over say a 2,5,1 progression in a western swing context?
sort of the first thing you would grab at if you where put on the spot and had to go for it...

fujers - Posted - 05/14/2014:  12:34:50

Hi Pete, Not sure what you mean about 2,5,1. Most progressions in western swing are 1,4, 5, 6m, 3m with an ocassional minor or dim chord. There are instances where there's an aug chord.

First knowing your scales goes a long way. Try using your major 7th and your b3's scales against whatever chord you're playing, try using dim scales to enhance what you're playing. Not really sure what you are saying.

Peghead - Posted - 05/14/2014:  12:57:56

There's always a melody and so much depends on it, you're always safe with some variation of it's notes. Timing too, how long you stay on any one chord dictates what you can get away with tonally. If it's just a quick passing chord there are lots of options, but if it lingers on a chord for any length of time, your note selection becomes more noticeable. The modes are great but they are not universally applicable. The 2 chord for instance if it's major will probably require a mode shift to a different key. Something derived from a major arpeggio of the 2 with a 7th added will lead nicely into the 5 chord. (the 2 is actually the 5 of the 5 chord if that's not too confusing) so you could just play the 5th mode for the 2 chord. It's gets a bit academic and geeky to talk about it so abstractly. It's all about context, I personally would look to take my cues from the melody first.