elf1654 - Posted - 01/10/2014:  04:11:54

Sorry for the vague reference in the subject line. I'm not really sure how to phrase the question but here I go.

I play a particular tune (Wayfaring Stranger) in a way that's nice and slow (pretty much everything I do is nice and slow) but as time has progressed I have tried using my fourth finger more and more. Here's something I noticed more often since then but have no way to explain to myself why the difference is. When I play the E note on a open string the sound of course is much more open. When instead I play the E note on the A string using the fourth finger (second position 1st note?) the note is more subdued and adds to at least me a I don't know exactly how to describe it perhaps haunting quality to the sound.

The passage in particular starts on the A string B note (I normally add a slight amount of vibrato to the note) goes to D note on A string and then finally either to a open E or 4th finger on A string. The effect seems to start  when I start my return from the 4th position back to the D note on the A string. To me its a difference of night and day in the passage between the open and noted position.  I will admit that my fourth finger still needs a lot of work and as a result I have no doubt I tend to play notes a bit more flat than normal.

I'm just curious how to explain this to myself, any help would be greatly welcome.

Rusty

Edited by - elf1654 on 01/10/2014 04:16:25

S_Heriger - Posted - 01/10/2014:  04:57:02

Probably just need to spend more time using the 4th finger, getting it strong and used to playing. In theory, it shouldn't be any different from your other fingers, except that it tends to hit the string more at an angle than say your 1st finger, which tends to press straight down on the string. A lot of that has to do with how you learned. I learned from a classical player who is also a great fiddler, and she taught me how to arch my wrist outward toward the fiddle head and all my fingers hit straight up and down, even the 4th, and that greatly improves tone. 



Also, I play guitar, octave mandolin and a bouzouki, so I use my 4th finger regularly and it's very used to being pressed into service, so to speak. My personal feeling is that it's just a matter of technique that will improve with use. A simple exercise is to just play different notes with your 4th finger, and hold the notes and add vibrato. Fingers need practice to develop motor muscle memory. The more you use it, the better it will get, and you'll sound better. 

DougD - Posted - 01/10/2014:  05:16:32

The sound of a stopped note will be different than the same note on an open string. Many classical violinists avoid open strings because they can't be "vibrated" or the pitch adjusted. I thought these were called "white" notes - i.e. +plain" or "bland," but that term doesn't seem to have hit the Internet yet. In the passage you describe the stopped E will better match the sound of the stopped B and D. If you watch really good fiddle players, especially on slow tunes, you'll see that they don't just clamp their fingers down on the notes and leave them there. They're always moving - that's one of the things that give the music life. Watch J P Fraley in this video:youtube.com/watch?v=oQ4mFmJsfE8

BTW, that E on the A string as you describe it is not second position - its fourth finger, first position.

Edited by - DougD on 01/10/2014 05:19:14

boxbow - Posted - 01/10/2014:  10:33:53

I don't know if this is a useful suggestion or not.  Here goes.

Try doubling the E notes.  That is, use your pinkie on the A string and also play the open E.  You can learn to adjust the notes to match.  It's a worthwhile effect in itself, but you'll also learn to control that pinkie much better.  I like to play descending half-scales this way, starting on the G string and working my way up, including (especially including) the discordant stopped notes.  My normal warm-up is to do this on all string pairs for just a minute or two.  It seems to jump start my intonation and it's dynamite for ear training.  Doing it for too long will just over-stress your left hand, so just a minute or two and move on.  Revisit it later if you like.   Listen, listen, listen.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/10/2014:  11:38:46

To add to what Doug said - obviously an open string will not only be open but be brighter sounding than one that is touching skin; but as well because the notes have a different length and on a string of a different diameter they don't have the same timbre, the same layout of harmonics; even though the fundamental is the same; so the position gives a sense of coloring the sound. Very noticeable on a guitar, (frets come into play, rather than skin) the difference of sound of an open E string, to that of the same pitch on the B, G, D, and A (19th fret) strings. That tone color can be a factor in deciding where to play. On a fiddle, sometimes because of  the string match (not well balanced), the difference can be quite significant, the open being very bright, if not almost harsh sounding, compared to to the stopped one; and make the significant difference in going from a D to an E note. Of course these things are much more noticeable on slower tunes. One thing to consider is finding an E string that better matches the A string.

Another factor is that the stopped string allows for easier control in how sustained - as you can choke it off or dampen, controlling the white space between notes. And then in the sound of a slur between 2 notes being naturally different if on one string, compared to crossing.

wooliver - Posted - 01/10/2014:  11:43:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

 

I don't know if this is a useful suggestion or not.  Here goes.

Try doubling the E notes.  That is, use your pinkie on the A string and also play the open E.  You can learn to adjust the notes to match.  It's a worthwhile effect in itself, but you'll also learn to control that pinkie much better.  I like to play descending half-scales this way, starting on the G string and working my way up, including (especially including) the discordant stopped notes.  My normal warm-up is to do this on all string pairs for just a minute or two.  It seems to jump start my intonation and it's dynamite for ear training.  Doing it for too long will just over-stress your left hand, so just a minute or two and move on.  Revisit it later if you like.   Listen, listen, listen.

---

Amen,

Not only the open E & E on the A string, but the open A & A on the D sting. (ala Sally Goodin & Grey Eagle) And open D & D on the G string. (ala Jerusalem Ridge) The fourth finger unison, technique is quite a useful tool.

DougD - Posted - 01/10/2014:  12:01:47

boxbow and wooliver - That's a valuable technique, but that's not really the question here, and in fact would probably be out of place on this tune.

elf1654 - Posted - 01/11/2014:  04:02:01

Thanks to everyone for their insight and suggestions, it was very helpful. Yes that pesky ole 4th finger of mine needs a bit more practice and I find it getting easier as time goes by. Doug I stand corrected on the fourth finger first position thought, You are definitely right, I'm afraid my brain was thinking correctly but my fingers typed in something different. LOL

I think I like Alaskafiddlers thought of "the note having some color to it." that seems to be what I was looking for. I'm still a newby at all of this and find myself a little amazed how just a slight change can bring some much more to a tune. I'm slowing starting to understand the comment "You can play the tune but you are not playing it with any feelings" when experienced folks have reviewed another's playing,

The word timbre is also something I need to research out, it's definition may help to explain some of the nagging questions I've had for a couple of years,

Once again thanks to all for your time and effort,

Rusty

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 01/11/2014:  12:24:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

 

I don't know if this is a useful suggestion or not.  Here goes.

Try doubling the E notes.  That is, use your pinkie on the A string and also play the open E.  You can learn to adjust the notes to match.  It's a worthwhile effect in itself, but you'll also learn to control that pinkie much better.  I like to play descending half-scales this way, starting on the G string and working my way up, including (especially including) the discordant stopped notes.  My normal warm-up is to do this on all string pairs for just a minute or two.  It seems to jump start my intonation and it's dynamite for ear training.  Doing it for too long will just over-stress your left hand, so just a minute or two and move on.  Revisit it later if you like.   Listen, listen, listen.

---

Boxbow, referring to your comment about doubling the E notes.. "it is a worthwhile effect in itself"...So true...!!    LEE

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 01/18/2014:  15:48:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

 

I don't know if this is a useful suggestion or not.  Here goes.

Try doubling the E notes.  That is, use your pinkie on the A string and also play the open E.  You can learn to adjust the notes to match.  It's a worthwhile effect in itself, but you'll also learn to control that pinkie much better.  I like to play descending half-scales this way, starting on the G string and working my way up, including (especially including) the discordant stopped notes.  My normal warm-up is to do this on all string pairs for just a minute or two.  It seems to jump start my intonation and it's dynamite for ear training.  Doing it for too long will just over-stress your left hand, so just a minute or two and move on.  Revisit it later if you like.   Listen, listen, listen.

---

Boxbow, referring to your comment about doubling the E notes.. "it is a worthwhile effect in itself"...So true...!!    LEE

---

Playing third and fourth string unisons are two of the most important tricks of OT fiddling... I'm always amazed at how many people play tunes and Never use unisons and are  missing great opportunities  to sound real Old Timey  by not using unisons in their playing...

carlb - Posted - 01/19/2014:  05:13:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

Playing third and fourth string unisons are two of the most important tricks of OT fiddling... I'm always amazed at how many people play tunes and Never use unisons and are  missing great opportunities  to sound real Old Timey  by not using unisons in their playing...

---

I do that and recommend it to all. Now the unisons need not be perfectly in tune with each other as a description from Irish button accordion players informed me. Their instruments are either tuned with a "dry sound" (reeds with identical pitches are perfectly in tune with each other) or a "wet sound" (reeds with the same note are tuned a few cents apart (100 cents/half step). Those who prefer the "wet sound" say it has more presence.

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 01/19/2014:  05:35:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

Playing third and fourth string unisons are two of the most important tricks of OT fiddling... I'm always amazed at how many people play tunes and Never use unisons and are  missing great opportunities  to sound real Old Timey  by not using unisons in their playing...

---

I do that and recommend it to all. Now the unisons need not be perfectly in tune with each other as a description from Irish button accordion players informed me. Their instruments are either tuned with a "dry sound" (reeds with identical pitches are perfectly in tune with each other) or a "wet sound" (reeds with the same note are tuned a few cents apart (100 cents/half step). Those who prefer the "wet sound" say it has more presence.

---

I must play with a lot of presence because my unisons are always a 'off'. I have years of in-experience behind my playing.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/19/2014:  17:20:44

I'm in the same boat...I love the sound of the note up in the 4 th spot, but pinky doesn't always feel up to it so I've often utilized my ring finger by sliding on up.  The sound of an unattended string on the fiddle, is, sometimes good, sometimes not ... Sometimes I like the unison of the 4 th spot and open string above.  The fiddle breathes fire when you play both.  But, even though I've plated the guitar for over 50 years now, finger style which uses that pinky a whole lot to stretch over several frets, bend, grab notes all over while other fingers stay positioned in a chord...I'm finding my pinky not reliable at all for fiddling.,.i don't think it's pinky strength or independence...I believe those are necessities in guitar fingerpicking...I'm not sure what it is...I never know if my pinky's gonna get those notes or crash.  It might be getting a little better here in my fifth year of steady playing, but still a very iffy thing.

rustycase - Posted - 01/21/2014:  15:01:30

I feel more like humbled each day.

As DD and AF have said, the options are superlative.

What a wonderful instrument!

Dependent upon circumstances, audience, subject material, immediate tuning, your capability, etc...
Make your presentation, ...and move on to the next!
:-)
rc

hardykefes - Posted - 01/22/2014:  08:20:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

...... Many classical violinists avoid open strings because they can't be "vibrated" ......

BTW, that E on the A string as you describe it is not second position - its fourth finger, first position.

---

Doug, this is not exactly true. Every note can be vibrated by using a simple trick: Example G-string: vibrate the G on the D string (with 3rd finger) but play the open G-string. E-string: vibrate the E on A string but play open E-string.

So I would phrase it like open strings can not be directly vibrated. I don't really avoid open strings but rather choose when to use them and when not, depending on what sound I want to use and depending on the context. In general: using the closed position gives a warmer tone. But lots of fiddle tune sound better when using open string: Try to play 'Devil's Dream' 2nd half with 4th finger, IMO it would sound not very pleasant.

Edited by - hardykefes on 01/22/2014 08:21:05

boxbow - Posted - 01/23/2014:  19:02:08

Not unlike the effect of cross tuning.  When cross tuning, it really pays to be able to grab that fourth finger note, and you can still, as hardykefes suggests, touch the open strings with the bow as well when you want.

mswlogo - Posted - 01/23/2014:  19:53:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardykefes

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

...... Many classical violinists avoid open strings because they can't be "vibrated" ......

BTW, that E on the A string as you describe it is not second position - its fourth finger, first position.

---

Doug, this is not exactly true. Every note can be vibrated by using a simple trick: Example G-string: vibrate the G on the D string (with 3rd finger) but play the open G-string. E-string: vibrate the E on A string but play open E-string.

So I would phrase it like open strings can not be directly vibrated. I don't really avoid open strings but rather choose when to use them and when not, depending on what sound I want to use and depending on the context. In general: using the closed position gives a warmer tone. But lots of fiddle tune sound better when using open string: Try to play 'Devil's Dream' 2nd half with 4th finger, IMO it would sound not very pleasant.

---

I think Doug maybe meant Vibratoed. But I think classical players also avoid open strings because of unevenness in level and tone.

Peghead - Posted - 01/24/2014:  15:30:39

"Vibrated"  is way better don't you think?  "Spasato" if it's really fast. 

Edited by - Peghead on 01/24/2014 15:35:51

DougD - Posted - 01/24/2014:  15:37:59

Well, according to the online Merriam Webster's vibrato is from the past participle of vibrare meaning "to vibrate" in Italian. I've heard the term "vibrate" used to mean "to play with vibrato," which is what I meant. In any case, I think mswlogo understood my meaning, and I agree with his second point too.

irfiddler - Posted - 06/09/2014:  13:54:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

I'm always amazed at how many people play tunes and Never use unisons and are  missing great opportunities  to sound real Old Timey  by not using unisons in their playing...

---

I especially love the sound of sliding up - or down - or both - with the fourth finger when it's played in unison with the open string.  It works with  waltzes  as well as faster tunes  It's another great trick to add to your collection to take a plain vanilla tune and make it your own.  Another reason to strengthen that pinkie.

Also makes it easier to get the two notes perfectly in tune.

Edited by - irfiddler on 06/09/2014 14:00:39

irfiddler - Posted - 06/09/2014:  15:24:12

Sometimes I think it's good to have a choice - open string - or 4th finger. - different sounds. We can do a lot with an open string depending on how we use our bow,

For example an open string can give an almost haunting quality. Lightening up - a lot - on the bow pressure and letting the bow slide down over the fingerboard is another sound these 4 strings can give us.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/10/2014:  12:52:24

One thing related to this is in how the choice between open or stopped string can affect the bowing, phrasing and flow. Early on, I used to use my 4th finger too easily on some phrases, it seemed initially easier to bow; but later found that some tunes - the crossing to adjacent string was often actually better for the rhythmic flow and phrasing.

Conrad - Posted - 06/30/2014:  09:54:00

I think the sound of your fourth-fingered notes is going to depend on the length of your pinky.  Those with short fingers will find it harder to use the fingertip, and will more likely play on the flat of the finger.

The following remarks on elbow position seem to be mainly concerned with the attacks of the notes (articulation), but I think they probably apply also to the tonal quality of the sustained bowed note.

archive.org/download/principle...0gala.pdf

Refers to Galamian's Principles, page 14:

"... the position of the elbow will also vary to allow for different tonal results."

" ... moving the elbow a little to the right ... results in a steeper angle in the fingers,; they can hit a little harder and, by contacting the string with the narrower, more bony part of the tip, can produce the desired articulated sound."

" ... for a character of softness and ease ... Moving the elbow to the left will flatten the fingers by allowing them to contact the string with the bigger, softer, and fleshier pad."

fiddlinjim - Posted - 07/20/2014:  13:36:34

I tend to use my 4th. finger maybe too much at times but I've wandered into Celt. and can't help it.   

vibratingstring - Posted - 07/21/2014:  02:59:05

Alaskafiddler>>>>>>>>One thing related to this is in how the choice between open or stopped string can affect the bowing, phrasing and flow. 

Phrasing?   Did you say PHRASING?   Those are fighting words!

Learner - Posted - 07/21/2014:  18:32:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardykefes

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

...... Many classical violinists avoid open strings because they can't be "vibrated" ......

BTW, that E on the A string as you describe it is not second position - its fourth finger, first position.

---

Doug, this is not exactly true. Every note can be vibrated by using a simple trick: Example G-string: vibrate the G on the D string (with 3rd finger) but play the open G-string. E-string: vibrate the E on A string but play open E-string.

So I would phrase it like open strings can not be directly vibrated. I don't really avoid open strings but rather choose when to use them and when not, depending on what sound I want to use and depending on the context. In general: using the closed position gives a warmer tone. But lots of fiddle tune sound better when using open string: Try to play 'Devil's Dream' 2nd half with 4th finger, IMO it would sound not very pleasant.

---

Thanks for mentioning that trick, Hardy.  That's exactly what I use.

I've been playing now for six years, and because my pinkies are short, producing good tone with the pinky has always been a struggle.

As a result,  I've forced myself to use the pinky almost all the time, even when lifting a finger to play the open string would be the better way to play a fast passage, or grace note.  This forces me to learn to strengthen and speed up my fourth finger.  Then, when I actually perform the song (or practice for performance) I may go back to using the more appropriate open string for that same passage.