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fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/12/2013: 09:08:35
I was curious if folks could define what makes a: Reel, Hornpipe, Polka, Rag
DougD - Posted - 12/12/2013: 11:46:42
Those are tunes, not songs. Songs have words, which are sung to a melody - the tune. I know this is blurred in the iTune, online music selling era, where everything is a "song", but these types of fiddle tunes are not.
Most of these, except "rag" are defined by a type of dance that they originally accompanied.
Edited by - DougD on 12/12/2013 11:48:53
Fidleir - Posted - 12/12/2013: 12:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
I was curious if folks could define what makes a: Reel, Hornpipe, Polka, Rag
There are some simple as well as sophisticated discussions on mnemonics on the rhythms for reels, hornpipes and polkas as found in Irish traditional music on TheSession.org it's a good place to look.
If you are looking for an understanding of reels, hornpipes, polkas and rags as interpreted in other types of music - I haven't a clue.
And YES - these are tunes and not songs.
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/12/2013: 12:15:00
I like to write tunes, and I'm probably inappropriately calling them reels and what not. So it'd probably be good if I actually understood what a reel was ...
Fidleir - Posted - 12/12/2013: 12:43:50
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
I like to write tunes, and I'm probably inappropriately calling them reels and what not. So it'd probably be good if I actually understood what a reel was ...
Read this material: irishtune.info/rhythm/
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/12/2013: 13:06:12
Are most reels I'd play in Bluegrass circles taken from irish music?
DougD - Posted - 12/12/2013: 13:29:02
Can you give some examples? Some might be, but most are probably not.
If you want to oversimplify in a very stereotypical way, the reel is the national dance of Scotland - its in brisk duple meter: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reel_%28dance%29 The jig is the national dance of Ireland - its in 6/8, or sometimes (slip jigs) in 9/8 time, but the Irish take the distinctions a little further than that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig That's really hogwash of course, since both types are played both places, as well as over here.
The polka was a dance, Polish in origin or spirit from the mid 19th century: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polka Its usually slower, and with a different feel than either of the above.
The hornpipe is another dance in duple meter like the reel, but slower and more syncopated, and often ends each section with three repeated notes. Its origins are obscure, but was a popular stage dance in the later 18th century. Many popular hornpipes are named after the dancer who made them famous, and in the US are often played faster than in the old country, more like reels.
Edited by - DougD on 12/12/2013 13:32:46
DeamhanFola - Posted - 12/12/2013: 14:06:53
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
Are most reels I'd play in Bluegrass circles taken from irish music?
I'd wager that a fair few of them are ultimately Scottish or Scots Irish/Ulster Scots in origin, though as DougD points out these days it's more relevant to think of what's currently being done to them as opposed to from whence they hail. Polkas, for instance, have been whole-heartedly assimilated into Irish tradition--I doubt any musician would have trouble hearing a difference between a polka as played by someone in Sliabh Luachra with one played in Krakow.
The page that Fidleir posted is a pretty good intro to the subject. Just be sure to read all the way through-- the various tune forms are quite distinct, as the page points out. There's more to jigs than double jigs, for instance.
Want to tell a bluegrasser accompanist from someone used to accompanying traditional Irish tunes? Charge into a good slide.
Edited by - DeamhanFola on 12/12/2013 14:08:32
DougD - Posted - 12/12/2013: 14:31:34
Here's a hornpipe (Rickett's) played Southern style: youtube.com/watch?v=sYijBgaNxRY Even above the din you can hear the repeated three notes at the end of the sections. I'm playing me little ukulele. There were already too many of everything else!
Edited by - DougD on 12/12/2013 14:32:50
mad baloney - Posted - 12/12/2013: 14:59:36
It's a simple question, but you could fill a small library with the answers.
How the different genres approach the same kind of tune is very different, each style has it's own set of standards - what's good form in one genre is tacky as a rhinestone-studded pink flamingo in the next.
Best to decide what you want to know and research it.
Edited by - mad baloney on 12/12/2013 15:00:24
DougD - Posted - 12/12/2013: 17:25:48
Just as an example of how different genres approach the same type of tune, here's another hornpipe, in the Americo-Scottish style. In stage dancing the hornpipe frequently has a nautical theme, acknowledging its supposed origins, with climbing the shrouds, pulling on the lines and so on acted out. If she looks through her spyglass in this one I missed it: youtube.com/watch?v=MaCuH_C9GXI
This definitely would have looked like a "rhinestone-studded pink flamingo" to our group playing "Rickett's" only a few yards from the spot where the Carter Family and Jimmy Rodgers made their first recordings in 1927.
Edited by - DougD on 12/12/2013 17:31:25
fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 12/12/2013: 18:17:46
Got to love the old "rhinestone-studded pink flamingos" as they just aren't as good as they use to be.
mad baloney - Posted - 12/12/2013: 19:19:25
"The rhine-stone studded pink flamingo"... Sounds like a hornpipe Sean Maguire would have liked, It's probably in Qb minor with bow bouncing and accidentals everywhere.
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/12/2013: 20:40:51
DougD I looked at that video while my kids were brushing that teeth and they came running in to see what I was watching. So I set up the video for them and this is what came out:
(LOL)
elf1654 - Posted - 12/14/2013: 04:07:56
Fiddlinsteudel, thanks for posting the video of your two little dancing gals. The video brought back warm memories of my own two daughters when they were that age. I surely miss those days.
The older I get the more amazed I become at just how hardwired music seems to be in the human brain. Call it a reel, jig or anything you can think of but when the little ones start tap their feet and move around you are truly playing good music.
Rusty
DougD - Posted - 12/14/2013: 05:13:20
That video of your daughters is great, thanks. Start 'em while they're young! I'll bet Laura Scott, the dancer in the video would get a kick out of it if she saw it.
Strictly speaking I guess this would be "Scottish Dancing." Apparently the hornpipe is one of he categories in Highland dance competitions today. On Youtube there are several videos of multiple dancers performing this dance. The tune "College Hornpipe" has become known as "Sailor's Hornpipe" because of its association with this dance, although that's not what they're playing in the video.
There used to be a video of an English ballet dancer performing this in the character of John Durang (to "Durang"s Hornpipe") but I can't find it now.
Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 12/16/2013: 13:58:46
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
DougD I looked at that video while my kids were brushing that teeth and they came running in to see what I was watching. So I set up the video for them and this is what came out:
(LOL)
And I'll bet that they didn't ask you if the tune was Dorian or not??? Geez, what are you teaching those kids?
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/16/2013: 15:26:43
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
DougD I looked at that video while my kids were brushing that teeth and they came running in to see what I was watching. So I set up the video for them and this is what came out:
(LOL)
And I'll bet that they didn't ask you if the tune was Dorian or not??? Geez, what are you teaching those kids?
No but I quickly sat them down at desks and lectured them! ;)
wooliver - Posted - 03/06/2014: 14:20:38
Old tunes with "reel" in the title are likely to be Reels.
Old tunes with "hornpipe" in the title are likely to be Hornpipes.
Same applies to waltzes, rags, breakdowns, quadrilles, strathspeys, durdges, laments, jigs, & slip-jigs.
Swing - Posted - 03/07/2014: 05:53:30
Wooliver, I have found some Canadian tunes that were called Foxtrots that were Polkas.... as well as a few other strange inversions. So the title isn't always the truth in tune names.
Play Happy
Swing
Dick Hauser - Posted - 03/07/2014: 08:21:56
Originally, many tunes were played for specific types of dancing. In order to dance to the music, the beat, tempo, accent and other things had to be played a certain way. Traditional dancers would be unable to dance to what is often played today. Somewhere I read that being able to dance to a certain type of music helped improve your ability to play that type of music.
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/07/2014: 09:14:48
And the original question was what attributes (other than the song title) actually differentiate a song type from another For example say someone said, write a Hornpipe. What things would you need to include in your song in order for it to be considered a Hornpipe ...
DeamhanFola - Posted - 03/07/2014: 10:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
And the original question was what attributes (other than the song title) actually differentiate a song type from another For example say someone said, write a Hornpipe. What things would you need to include in your song in order for it to be considered a Hornpipe ...
Some of this would of course depend upon what sort of hornpipe one was trying to write. After all, Handel and Purcell wrote hornpipes. Another way of thinking about it would be to consider the approach one takes to the form, e.g. an Irish take on a hornpipe would likely involve a different approach.
Along these lines, Irish fusion group Kila's take on Handel:
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/07/2014: 10:26:21
Ok so in the context of Bluegrass ... go. :)
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/07/2014: 12:29:33
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
In the context of Bluegrass - "Monroe's Hornpipe" youtube.com/watch?v=0Wdagjrq0Rw
So what makes that a hornpipe vs a reel vs a breakdown? (other than its name)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/07/2014: 19:51:35
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
In the context of Bluegrass - "Monroe's Hornpipe" youtube.com/watch?v=0Wdagjrq0Rw
So what makes that a hornpipe vs a reel vs a breakdown? (other than its name)
There isn't any one characteristic that's ALWAYS there, but there are a bunch of characteristics that are often found together:
1. More notes.
2. More likely to have triplet ornaments or triplet runs, though less often in American hornpipes.
3. More likely to have bow rocking passages or melodic passages based on some arpeggio.
4. Because arpeggios are based on chords, hornpipes often have more interesting chord patterns.
5. You have characteristic ending notes that get played with a roll in Irish and Scottish hornpipes.
6. Often the second half of the second part is just a repeat of the second half of the first part.
7. While they aren't always played with a bounce, there is something about the way hornpipes are written that lends itself to being played in a bouncy way, if the player so desires.
Reels can have arpeggios, triplets, and quite a few notes, but they tend to have less of them, and the melody somehow doesn't want to bounce as much.
However, I've encountered a few tunes that even in Ireland have been played as both hornpipes and reels. Kitty's Wedding is one.
A basic source for a lot of hornpipes in the North American fiddling repertoire is Ryan's Mammoth Collection.
violinsheetmusic.org/collectio...ction.pdf
Check out:
Durang's, Fisher's, Rickett's, Sailor's, Devil's Dream, Democratic Rage, Harvest Home, Liverpool Hornpipe, Dundee Hornpipe, Texarkana Hornpipe, Boys of Blue Hill, Garfield's Hornpipe and Speed the Plough. These are pretty good examples of conventional 18th Century hornpipes. Chief O'Neill's Favorite gives you a different flavor in an Irish hornpipe.
The hornpipes are all together in one section, I think it's the third section after jigs and reels, so you have to scroll down quite a ways to get there.
The collection was edited and republished under the name "Cole's 1001 Fiddle Tunes", which is where I learned many of the ones I've mentioned. The plates for the pages even look the same.
GeeDubya - Posted - 03/08/2014: 04:37:25
Durang's, Fisher's, Rickett's, Sailor's, Devil's Dream, Democratic Rage, Harvest Home, Liverpool Hornpipe, Dundee Hornpipe, Texarkana Hornpipe, Boys of Blue Hill, Garfield's Hornpipe and Speed the Plough. These are pretty good examples of conventional 18th Century hornpipes. Chief O'Neill's Favorite gives you a different flavor in an Irish hornpipe.
Garfield wasn't president & Texarkana didn't exist in the 1700s, Pogo. I'd say 19th c. for most of these examples, though some of the melodies in a slightly different guise are undoubtedly older. Ryan's was published in 1883, and the presentations there, and subsequently in Cole's, are as the tunes would have been popularly presented at that time. The ubiquity of Cole's as a standard tune book amongst fiddlers who were paper-trained persisted until well after WW2, and the reverence amongst today's revivalists for some of those fiddlers' tunes has helped Ryan's 19th c. melodies persist into the 21st c. Pretty cool.
Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/03/2014: 08:51:22
The first few pages of "Fiddler's Fakebook" has a brief description of the different types of fiddle tunes. If you ever get the opportunity, and are curious about Irish fiddling, glance through Peter Cooper's "The Complete Irish Fiddler". The two CDs that come with it have some popular Irish tunes. This book has lots of interesting reading about Irish fiddling and its history.
It seems as though the titles often don't correctly indicate the type of tune. Many traditional dance forms require specific dance steps, and music is written to accommodate the dancing. People are dancing to the music less, and tunes are often being played too fast. I have even seen jigs, the "Red River Jig" for example, without the right dynamics for dancing a "jig". This happens even more for hornpipes.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/03/2014: 22:55:18
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Durang's, Fisher's, Rickett's, Sailor's, Devil's Dream, Democratic Rage, Harvest Home, Liverpool Hornpipe, Dundee Hornpipe, Texarkana Hornpipe, Boys of Blue Hill, Garfield's Hornpipe and Speed the Plough. These are pretty good examples of conventional 18th Century hornpipes. Chief O'Neill's Favorite gives you a different flavor in an Irish hornpipe.
Garfield wasn't president & Texarkana didn't exist in the 1700s, Pogo. I'd say 19th c. for most of these examples, though some of the melodies in a slightly different guise are undoubtedly older. Ryan's was published in 1883, and the presentations there, and subsequently in Cole's, are as the tunes would have been popularly presented at that time. The ubiquity of Cole's as a standard tune book amongst fiddlers who were paper-trained persisted until well after WW2, and the reverence amongst today's revivalists for some of those fiddlers' tunes has helped Ryan's 19th c. melodies persist into the 21st c. Pretty cool.
Editing FAIL!!! Thanks for pointing that out.... DEFINITELY 19th century/ 1800's!!!!!!
Yeah, Coles was standard fiddling fare in music stores when I started out in the early 1970's.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 05/03/2014 22:58:21
TexasRed - Posted - 08/16/2014: 07:56:11
Can't claim credit for this
Reel:
watermelon watermelon / watermelon watermelon
Double Jig
blueberry blueberry / blueberry blueberry
Slip Jig
blueberry blueberry blueberry / blueberry blueberry blueberry
Hornpipe
apple apple apple apple / apple apple apple apple
March:
grape grape grape grape / grape grape grape grape
pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/16/2014: 09:57:18
Generally speaking,I reckon
A "Hornpipe" is like Folkies play an Irish jig eg: (Dum-py Dum-py,Dum-py Dum-py)
and a "Reel" is like Blue grassers play a hornpipe eg: (dubadubadubaduba) 
boxbow - Posted - 08/18/2014: 07:03:07
quote:
Originally posted by TexasRed
Can't claim credit for this
Reel:
watermelon watermelon / watermelon watermelon
Double Jig
blueberry blueberry / blueberry blueberry
Slip Jig
blueberry blueberry blueberry / blueberry blueberry blueberry
Hornpipe
apple apple apple apple / apple apple apple apple
March:
grape grape grape grape / grape grape grape grape
I was just eating some watermelon that my wife had dried in a food dryer. It was really, really good. I'd never have expected that.
We've been picking wild blueberries about a mile from the house. You can't find 'em like these in the store, I'm tellin' ya! All others seem like fakes, somehow.
The apples are still disappointing, locally. The best are presently shipped in from New Zealand.
Grapes. I quit drinking decades ago.
Oh! Music! Um, well, let's see here. Let me go have a snack, and I'll get back to you.
'Done Gone - Jesse Milnes' 39 min
'The Keystone Fiddlers' 11 hrs
