JRice - Posted - 11/21/2013:  14:53:26

I have a question about key signatures and practice. It seems that when I started playing I practiced scales and arpeggios. When I did practice I used sheet music containing sharps. Now I want to be able to play sharps or flats. Is there any short cuts to learning finger positions for flats. I cannot play by ear. When I started playing I learned to read sheet music. I hope I have explained what I need help with. Many Thanks in advance. Jerry

Fidleir - Posted - 11/21/2013:  14:59:05

Hi Jerry - I used this website to learn the scales with the sharps and flats - I think it's designed for children but I figure I was a child when it came to this!  mrfiddle.tripod.com/scales.html

DougD - Posted - 11/21/2013:  15:25:53

I don't know what you're trying to play, but FWIW, the sharp keys (G,D,A) are a lot more common in most fiddle playing than the flat keys.

eeee - Posted - 11/21/2013:  15:57:54

quote:

Originally posted by DougD

I don't know what you're trying to play, but FWIW, the sharp keys (G,D,A) are a lot more common in most fiddle playing than the flat keys.

Sharp keys also include B and E which are somewhat common in fiddle tunes. The flat keys used are mostly F and Bb, partly because both of them allow some open strings. To play in flat keys you need to know your closed fingerings. That's pretty much it. And as great as being able to read is, don't rely on it as the only way. Memorize some tunes in flat keys and you'll start having the tools to play other tunes in those keys.

PS  There aren't any shortcuts.

Edited by - eeee on 11/21/2013 15:59:56

mswlogo - Posted - 11/21/2013:  16:35:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by JRice

 

I have a question about key signatures and practice. It seems that when I started playing I practiced scales and arpeggios. When I did practice I used sheet music containing sharps. Now I want to be able to play sharps or flats. Is there any short cuts to learning finger positions for flats. I cannot play by ear. When I started playing I learned to read sheet music. I hope I have explained what I need help with. Many Thanks in advance. Jerry

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What I highlighted above is the only thing stopping you from learning to play by ear. That is, thinking you can't. You can do a scale by ear, I would expect. And an arpeggio. Tunes are often clumps of scales, broken scales, arpeggios, scale fragments... etc.

Start with Twinkle and work your way up.

Once you have a few tunes memorized (which I suspect you already do) try playing them in different keys. The easiest Keys to switch to initially is by going up or down a 5th which only involves moving over a string and using the same fingering.

Play Twinkle in all the "Folk Keys" G D A E F Bb and multiple octaves. After you practice those scales.

kindascratchy - Posted - 11/21/2013:  19:00:40

I agree! I wouldn't write off your ability to learn by ear just yet. A year ago, I would have said the same thing about myself, but with some good coaching from my teacher and attending Fiddle Hell a couple of weeks ago where tunes and techniques were mostly taught by ear, I can say that I'm not only able to learn by ear, i almost prefer it.

JRice - Posted - 11/21/2013:  22:19:44

Many Thanks, for the most helpful encouragement. With all of your help, I'm looking at things differently. Thanks!

Henry - Posted - 11/22/2013:  01:20:52

quote:

Originally posted by JRice

 Is there any short cuts to learning finger positions for flats.

Yeah, there is a short cut......just learn the four basic tetra chords and the finger extensions for harmonic minor scales.

JRice - Posted - 11/22/2013:  06:18:46

Henry, What is the order of practice for tetra chords? I know that a tetra chord is a four chord scale, but what order? What do you mean by finger extensions? Thanks!

Henry - Posted - 11/22/2013:  21:18:53

Well I would suggest learning the scales around the circle of fifths...thus adding one sharp or flat at a time....

e.g. sharps...C...G....D....A....E....etc...clockwise....Then anti-clock wise, flats.....C.....F.....Bb.....Eb...etc..

Or the ''short cut''...Just the tetra chord patterns, putting them in the major scale context then in the modes....

These are the finger patterns on the string...the 4th finger may also be the open string, but you need to learn the closed positions too.

1-23-4......12-3-4......1-2-34.........1-2-3-4.....( a possible order you may learn them )

The finger extensions create  the 'whole-tone-and-a-half' between certain fingers for the harmonic minor scales....

JRice - Posted - 11/23/2013:  11:36:14

Henry, Good explanation! Thanks

boxbow - Posted - 11/23/2013:  11:36:42

I'm still unclear what a tetra chord is.  Your last post implies that it is 4 adjacent notes in series, not necessarily starting with the tonic of the relevant scale, thus with never more than a single half-step interval.  That doesn't spell "chord" to me, but I'm a long way from knowing the entire lexicon of music theory.

DougD - Posted - 11/23/2013:  12:25:30

Well, I can't say that I've ever heard that term used, but the Virginia Tech online music dictionary defines a tetrachord as "The perfect fourth and the set of four diatonic, chromatic, or enharmonic notes encased therein."

Henry - Posted - 11/23/2013:  16:20:37

From WIKI................''In modern usage the tetrachord is any four note segment of a scale or tone row, not necessarily related to a particular system of tunning.''

Henry - Posted - 11/23/2013:  16:23:25

quote:

Originally posted by boxbow

 

  Your last post implies that it is 4 adjacent notes in series, not necessarily starting with the tonic of the relevant scale,

Any note will be the tonic of either a major scale or a mode.....depends on where the semi-tones occur.

wendellfiddler - Posted - 11/27/2013:  10:30:25

Just start playing in the key you want to build facility in and don't stop until you're sick of it.  You may find that flat keys offer some interesting opportunities - as do sharp keys.  There's a reason why many fiddle tunes are in A, D and G - they sound good there and there are certain licks that just right in those keys.  The same is true for flat keys  - it's just different stuff.  

That said, boy do I hate to play in B.   I guess I need play in that key all the time for about 6 months!

Doug

Bradford - Posted - 12/03/2013:  14:00:09

I'm almost reluctant to post this for fear of getting demonized and crucified , but here's a basic explanation of a 'tetrachord"

A tetrachord is 3 intervals that add up to a perfect 4th. It's a partial scale and not a "chord" as most people think of chords (a bunch of notes played together)

"whole step, whole step, half step" is a major tetrachord - two of these separated by a whole tone will give you a major scale. DEF#G than the whole step between G and the open A then ABCD.

So two "whole step, whole step, half step" tetrachords played on the G than the D string will give you a G major scale, on the D &A strings it will produce a D major scale - finally on the A & E strings it will produce a A major scale. 

So the other common tetra chord is "Whole step, half step, whole step" which is the minor tetrachord. So we constructed a G major using two major tetrachords starting on the open G and ending on the 3rd finger on the D string, to play the scale in the next octave use the minor tetrachord on the A string, AB-CD )the dash is the half step. then half of a minor tetrachord on the e string - EF-G. If you move that down a set of stings you have you C major scale. 

It's convoluted to describe, because it's such a basic component of theory. It's like giving a blow by blow on how to put pants on.

Anyway, here's some recipes, to make the common scales and modes from tetrachords: If you put two minor tetrachords seperated by a whole step, you get a minor scale. A minor tetrachord folllowed by a major separated by a whole step is the dorian mode, a major tetrachord followed by a minor tetrachord  separated by a whole step is the mixolydian mode. 

Bradford - Posted - 12/03/2013:  14:03:17

quote:

Originally posted by Henry George

From WIKI................''In modern usage the tetrachord is any four note segment of a scale or tone row, not necessarily related to a particular system of tunning.''

No, from Wikipedia  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachord 

"In music theory, traditionally, a tetrachord (Greek: τετράχορδoν, Latin: tetrachordum) is a series of three smaller intervals that span the interval of a perfect fourth,"

Bradford - Posted - 12/03/2013:  14:09:43

Anyway... Boo on all this tetrachord stuff. The OP wanted to know about keys We should be suggesting the circle of fifths. Which tells how many shaprs and flats there are in every key. 

To learn the scales just have at them, start with C and work your way around the circle of 5ths. Start with your root note and follow this pattern

"whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step"

Henry - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:08:11

quote:

Originally posted by mad baloney

quote:

Originally posted by Henry George

From WIKI................''In modern usage the tetrachord is any four note segment of a scale or tone row, not necessarily related to a particular system of tunning.''

No, from Wikipedia  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachord 

"In music theory, traditionally, a tetrachord (Greek: τετράχορδoν, Latin: tetrachordum) is a series of three smaller intervals that span the interval of a perfect fourth,"

Oh LOL.....read the next sentence.......

Bradford - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:37:08

"In music theory, traditionally, a tetrachord (Greek: τετράχορδoν, Latin: tetrachordum) is a series of three smaller intervals that span the interval of a perfect fourth, a 4:3 frequency proportion. In modern usage a tetrachord is any four-note segment of a scale or tone row, not necessarily related to a particular system of tuning."

Right, three intervals making up a 4th. Different way of saying the same thing.

Henry - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:54:26

quote:

Originally posted by JRice

 Is there any short cuts to learning finger positions for flats.

Tetrachords are the only short cut I can think of................. 

boxbow - Posted - 12/03/2013:  19:52:58

Some short cut.

I play major and minor scales by ear with considerable success.

Modes, well, once you've learned the tune, yer playing the mode.  What's to know?  The notes are pleasing or they are otherwise.

The only times I worry about the sharps and flats is when I'm trying to remember what key has that particular combination of sharps and flats or when I'm trying to pick something out on a keyboard, as it's useful to press the black keys in the correct spots. 

Better to train your ear to hear intervals and to recognize the sound of a major scale and a (harmonic?) minor scale.

Henry - Posted - 12/03/2013:  23:41:27

quote:

Originally posted by boxbow

Some short cut..

Yeah , ok , agreed , playing by ear is shorter.....Ah but....the OP can't play by ear.....did you read that bit.....????

boxbow - Posted - 12/04/2013:  09:08:18

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quote

:

---

Originally posted by Henry George

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

Some short cut..

 

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Yeah , ok , agreed , playing by ear is shorter.....Ah but....the OP can't play by ear.....did you read that bit.....????

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Indeed, I did read that bit.  That's why I recommended further ear training.  If he's learned to play the fiddle, he can almost certainly improve his ear.  Doing so would open up a lot of possibilities, including playing scales with greater accuracy.  I admit that I'm unsympathetic toward the idea that a person with perfectly functional ears can't train them.  I'm sympathetic toward the idea that it's an uncertain pursuit at first, sure.  I'm sympathetic toward the idea that a person with a good musical ear may find himself dissatisfied with his accuracy beyond what a less critical listener (an audience) might hear.  Perfectionism is a tool, not an end.  Might this not be what's really going on?  Pure speculation on my part, of course.  Also, I have had a pretty good ear since childhood.  Not perfect pitch, no, most certainly not.  But I doubt that very many people have no kind of musical ear at all, since we're surrounded by broadcast music practically every waking hour, so I'm convinced that most of us have had a great deal of subliminal ear training.  Most often, I find that I can automatically track the course of a pop tune like I can automatically track a line to the horizon.  I believe that most of us can, or we wouldn't be doing this music thing.  One of the weaknesses of modern pop music from the commercial music industry is the utter predictability of the so-called tunes.  Predictability>Surprise>Resolution is one formula for ear- and mind-pleasing music.  I don't know what it's like not to have a musical ear, only that there are advantages to making the most of the one you certainly must already possess. 

Therefore, I stand by my somewhat ironic remark.  Some short cut. 

Henry - Posted - 12/04/2013:  13:44:14

One of my students is a professional piano tuner, and I think you would agree that, this chap has a very good ear.

Recently I was showing him how to shift position, ''then you continue on with the notes of the scale'' I said.

Well his accuracy was not good, he kept playing out of tune and very well he did know that....!

So, I wasn't going to sit there and wait until he discovers the pattern his fingers should make to play intune....??

NO!...I told him which T E T R A C H O R D he needed to play in this new position.

So, this works both ways, for the untrained ear to develop functional ears and for the trained ears to understand finger patterns............ 

boxbow - Posted - 12/05/2013:  19:49:49

I'll take that one on faith, brother.

JRice - Posted - 12/09/2013:  16:45:44

quote: Where can I find and print a copy of this circle of fifths? Jerry

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

Anyway... Boo on all this tetrachord stuff. The OP wanted to know about keys We should be suggesting the circle of fifths. Which tells how many shaprs and flats there are in every key. 

To learn the scales just have at them, start with C and work your way around the circle of 5ths. Start with your root note and follow this pattern

"whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step"

---

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/09/2013:  19:46:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by JRice

 

Is there any short cuts to learning finger positions for flats. I cannot play by ear.

---

Don't know if there are any shortcuts exactly to learning fingering positions other than to just practice it.

But it might help to visualize some things. That is fingering positions come in just a few shapes, that you only have 4 fingers to use. Numbers representing your fingers and " - " a whole step.

1 - 2 - 3 4;

1 - 2 3 - 4;

1 2 - 3 - 4

where it's just changing where the half step is; these are the most used, and they come in repeated pairs of 2 adjacent strings. The other one is no half step 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and doesn't repeat; and the sequence starts over (with a slight shift established by the last) - this might be related to using tetrachords? Here are the common keys, going from high string to low.

A major (F# min, E mix, B dor) = 3 sharp

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2  -  3 4

x   *  1  -  2  -  3 4

notice the finger pairs, the only difference is the half step changed from 34 on low strings to 23 on high strings (only the third finger position)

D major (B min, A mix, E dor) = 2 sharp

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4 (notice new half step shift)

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2  -  3 4

G major (E min, D mix, A dor) = 1 sharp

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

again pairs, the now as 12 and 23 (second finger high or low)

C major (A min, G mix, D dori) = no sharp or flat

O 1  -  2  -  3  -  4  (notice no half step)

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1  -  2 3  -  4

F major (D min, C mix, G dori) = 1 flat

O 1  -  2  -  3 4 (note how this is the same finger pattern as in the first example of A; just now shifted down half step)

O 1  -  2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

 

Bb major (G min, F mix, C dori) = 1 flat

x  1  -  2  -  3 4

O 1  -  2  -  3 4

O 1  -  2  -  3  -  4

O  -  1 2  -  3  -  4

Many of the common keys use an open string in these, to which the 4 is the same as the open, so could be played with out the 4, until you get to the Bb and Eb on the 4th finger.  But keeping the 4 in the pattern, these are not limited to first position using open strings; the same patterns can move up the neck positions. The keys of E, B F#; and Eb, Db IMO are are best approached without the idea of open strings. For example

B major  = 5 sharp

x   -  1  -  2  -  3 4

x   *  1  -  2  -  3 4

x   -  1  -  2  -  3  - 4

x  *   x  1 2  -  3  - 4 

notice it's the same as Bb, just up one, not using any open strings; can be moved up to higher keys.

The other closed one folks use like that is

x   1  -  2  3 -  4

x   1  -  2  -  3 4

x   1  -  2  -  3 4

x   1  -  2  -  3  - 4

can be used from Eb, up one to E, up 2 to F and so on.

----------

Another trick in adapting this to reading notation - in first position examples above, notes on lines of the stave are going to be odd numbered fingers = 1 or 3. Notes on the spaces are going to be even = open, 2 or 4.

------

As far as "by ear" it is not as hard as you think - the major scale is just being able to recognize the do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do; it's the same relationship sound on every major scale, just starts with a different pitch; beyond that the finger chart with or without notation,  just rough guides, you need to "hear" it being in tune.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 12/09/2013 19:49:04

fujers - Posted - 05/23/2014:  12:50:07

Mad Boloney, thats a very good chart you got there. Learning the cycle of fiths is a must have for any player. It allows you to transpose to any key. Let say that your're playing a show and a guest singer comes up and wants to play a song in C. Now you have only played in other keys before. Knowing the cycle of 5th's you can transpose it on the fly. Just by knowing the cycle of fiths you don't have to search for chords...you already know them

Henry - Posted - 05/23/2014:  17:28:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by JRice

 

Henry, Good explanation! Thanks

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You are very welcome, all ways pleased to answer any questions.

Try the short cut, but knowing the ''circle of fifths'' will improve your musicianship........

The tetra chord patterns and the music theory go hand-in-hand........