haggis - Posted - 11/17/2013:  04:54:54

Can anyone help me out with a practical application of the diminished scale or arpeggio , if for example you were improvising in say D major. Also, is there a genre of music in which it is found more often  than any other?

eeee - Posted - 11/17/2013:  15:44:10

Diminished arpeggios and chords are primarily used as passing tones in styles that might be considered more sophisticated than the styles mostly discussed in this forum like Old Time, Bluegrass, Celtic, etc. There is a minor tension in the sound that cries to be resolved to another chord. You'd more likely find it in Jazz, Blues, Country, older pop standards. One practical application of it (it's almost a cliche) is to repeat the chord shape every 3 frets (or 3 half steps on a fiddle) and since the notes are evenly spaced minor 3rds in the scale it makes a new inversion of the same chord with every move. Since moving the position makes inversions the diminished 7th scale or chord can also be named from any of it's 4 notes, depending on the application or key you're in, and there are only 3 diminished 7 chords in that sense (4x3=12, all the notes in a chromatic scale). In the key of D you might move to a diminished 7 chord or arpeggio as a way to pass to Em, G, or A.

Strictly speaking a diminished chord is a triad consisting of the root, and minor third, and flatted 5th. The diminished 7th chord adds the diminished 7 which, since a dominant 7th is already flatted, becomes, enharmonically, a 6th.

Well, you asked, and I noticed nobody was answering so I thought to give it a shot. Now perhaps somebody else will clarify or correct me if I'm not stating it right.

haggis - Posted - 11/17/2013:  16:46:08

Abinigia thank you very much for the reply. You say "....you might move to a diminished chord or arp as a way to pass to Em ...." But which of the 3 diminisheds do you use and do you know the "rule" that determines this? (That it might be figured out in other keys.) With respect I am asking specifically about fiddle improvisation and understand what you say because I too am a guitarist,( I take it that you are a guitarist from the language that you use) However I dare say that the average fiddler could not tell you the 7 chords used in a harmonised scale. So, with my fiddlers hat on, how can I figure it out without reference to the underlying chord structure? Or can't it be done? And what about the deminished SCALE? Is that only used to construct diminished arps? Very confusing!!

haggis - Posted - 11/17/2013:  16:48:19

Abinigia thank you very much for the reply. You say "....you might move to a diminished chord or arp as a way to pass to Em ...." But which of the 3 diminisheds do you use and do you know the "rule" that determines this? (That it might be figured out in other keys.) With respect I am asking specifically about fiddle improvisation and understand what you say because I too am a guitarist,( I take it that you are a guitarist from the language that you use) However I dare say that the average fiddler could not tell you the 7 chords used in a harmonised scale. So, with my fiddlers hat on, how can I figure it out without reference to the underlying chord structure? Or can't it be done? And what about the deminished SCALE? Is that only used to construct diminished arps? Very confusing!!

boxbow - Posted - 11/17/2013:  16:52:16

I'll have to fire up my old keyboard so I can see as well as hear.  I can tell abinigia is making sense, just not to me.  Heckuva try, though.  Good one!

eeee - Posted - 11/17/2013:  17:41:20

quote:

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Originally posted by haggis

 

Abinigia thank you very much for the reply. You say "....you might move to a diminished chord or arp as a way to pass to Em ...." But which of the 3 diminisheds do you use and do you know the "rule" that determines this? (That it might be figured out in other keys.) With respect I am asking specifically about fiddle improvisation and understand what you say because I too am a guitarist,( I take it that you are a guitarist from the language that you use) However I dare say that the average fiddler could not tell you the 7 chords used in a harmonised scale. So, with my fiddlers hat on, how can I figure it out without reference to the underlying chord structure? Or can't it be done? And what about the deminished SCALE? Is that only used to construct diminished arps? Very confusing!!

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I'm going to think about this a little... but clearly (to me) one way to move from the root chord to a diminished that will likely be compatible with your key is to go 1/2 step up, say if you're heading to a 2 chord. So if you're in the key of D you then play D#dim7, then Em. That works because you are retaining some of your D chord notes (F#,A). If you want a 1 to 4 chord feel you'd go to G#dim7. If you want more of a 5 chord feel you'd go to the G dim7. I feel I'm wandering dangerously into incorrect terminology.

I think it's a useful chord for modulating keys, but I'll have to think about it a little before I can give a good example.

I'm frankly unsure of the dimished scale, although a dimished arpeggio only has the 3 or 4 notes in it.

It's very hard to describe clearly since the chords are ambiguous in sound and how you name them. I'm having to dig in my head some for this because I'm not formally trained, but I do strive to understand theory.

DougD - Posted - 11/17/2013:  18:25:23

It probably depends on what the melody is doing, but the chord that occurred to me in going from D to Em is also D#dim7, because of the chromatic movement - D,D#,E. I think that is the musically correct name for the chord in that situation too. How I figure that out is if you feel the need for a diminished chord, just find the one that includes the melody note or passing tone. There are only three, so the process of elimination doesn't take long.

I don't think I know what a diminished scale is (and its not in my music dictionary), but I agree with abinigia's first post that unless you're playing jazz, some blues or pop standards, none of this is very useful at all. One summer I played various fretted strings in a trio in the pit for a production of Oklahoma! and I never played so many diminished chords in my life. Mostly on guitar, and I just numbered them in the score (I was using a piano score with chord names added by hand in places) according to what fret I placed my first finger barre. I did have to learn a couple on mandolin for the song "Many a New Day." If you're going to improvise on Rodgers and Hammerstein or Gershwin tunes it might come in handy.

Edited by - DougD on 11/17/2013 18:31:10

eeee - Posted - 11/17/2013:  19:07:30

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

 

It probably depends on what the melody is doing, but the chord that occurred to me in going from D to Em is also D#dim7, because of the chromatic movement - D,D#,E. I think that is the musically correct name for the chord in that situation too. How I figure that out is if you feel the need for a diminished chord, just find the one that includes the melody note or passing tone. There are only three, so the process of elimination doesn't take long.

I don't think I know what a diminished scale is (and its not in my music dictionary), but I agree with abinigia's first post that unless you're playing jazz, some blues or pop standards, none of this is very useful at all. One summer I played various fretted strings in a trio in the pit for a production of Oklahoma! and I never played so many diminished chords in my life. Mostly on guitar, and I just numbered them in the score (I was using a piano score with chord names added by hand in places) according to what fret I placed my first finger barre. I did have to learn a couple on mandolin for the song "Many a New Day." If you're going to improvise on Rodgers and Hammerstein or Gershwin tunes it might come in handy.

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I used to play guitar, but mainly mandolin now, with fiddle a strong second. I sometimes play electric mando with a kind of country jazz band,and I've had to get used to playing some from charts. Those charts can have too many extended chords cluttering up the page . It didn't take me long to decide to take a black marker and in many cases ink out the extended chords, just leaving root and if minor. I can hear the extensions I want to make and don't need the page to be so cluttered (plus, something I think is important is that when playing in a group not every player should hit all the extended notes anyway, it's too much).

Another thing I do, since a lot of the songs have diminished chords, is take my pen and next to the chord name I write what fret is pressed on the E string and leave it at that. In first position the numbers are 2,3, or 4.

Leon Grizzard - Posted - 11/18/2013:  07:35:49

The most common place you see it is on the last part of the IV chord, ie D in the key of A, so a typical progression would be A A7 D D#dim and then either A E7 A, or just E7 A. That is the classic Texas style fiddle accompaniment for a half of a part. That same move is found in lots of other styles. You use the diminished arpeggion rooted on the D#. The rest of the band can still be playing D and the soloist can stick in a D# diminished arpeggio or run; just puts a feeling of motion in.

I just noticed you asked about the key of D, so that would be D D7 G G#dim A7 D.

Edited by - Leon Grizzard on 11/18/2013 07:38:28

martynspeck - Posted - 11/18/2013:  09:49:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Leon Grizzard

 

The most common place you see it is on the last part of the IV chord, ie D in the key of A, so a typical progression would be A A7 D D#dim and then either A E7 A, or just E7 A. That is the classic Texas style fiddle accompaniment for a half of a part. That same move is found in lots of other styles. You use the diminished arpeggion rooted on the D#. The rest of the band can still be playing D and the soloist can stick in a D# diminished arpeggio or run; just puts a feeling of motion in.

 

I just noticed you asked about the key of D, so that would be D D7 G G#dim A7 D.

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I think this is the first post in this thread that I understood. Just one question. Is that really "D Sharp Diminished" at the end of that progression?

Leon Grizzard - Posted - 11/18/2013:  11:36:00

Yes. D to D#dim. On guitar the sort of textbook progression would be D chord with D in the bass, them D#dim with D# in the bass, then either A or E7, with E in the bass, so you get a bass line of D D# E.

vibratingstring - Posted - 11/18/2013:  12:18:55

The diminished chord (V dim 7) also sounds good in place of the V chord in the turn around in jazz.     eg: DM7 Bm7 Em7 ((Adim7)) DM7.     It acts like a transition chord as mentioned above in the sense that Adim7 uses the same notes as D#dim7.   So the above sequence can be written DM7 Bm7 Em7 ((D#dim7)) DM7   The last 3 chords now look like a descending sequence .....    ((    ))  added to emphasize the diminished chord.

Larry

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 11/18/2013:  13:04:01

The diminished arpeggio occurs naturally in the harmonic minor scale on the Vb9 chord. Begin on any degree, except the tonic, and the result is the diminished arpeggio. 

The relative minor to D major is B minor...thus  Vb9 is F#b9... ( F#A#C#E G = F#b9 )

Therefore begin on G which is the IV of D major and you get...G A# C# E...OR...G Bb Db E = diminished arpeg.

So you can also use it in a minor gypsy tune as passing chord or on the V chord.

Just my way of looking at it..... 

OzCol - Posted - 11/19/2013:  05:30:19

I must have missed something here.

I was taught a Dim arp was in minor 3rds.

Therefore a Dim chord is 1, b3,b5,6.
A Half Dim chord is 1,b3,b5,b7.

I used Dim chords for years on Pedal Steel.
I looked at them as elevators to move through positions. They don't always have to sound discorded.

A good pattern on fiddle is descending, play minor 3rds and move up a half position as you cross the strings.

i.e. 1st str. G to open E.

2nd str. C# to Bb.

3rd str. G to E and same pattern on 4th str.

Do you see how it walks?

Ascending, you move down a half pos as you change strings.

Knowing that , you can play a Dim arp off any note.

Also, if you raise any note on a Dim chord up a half step, you will get a Dom 7.

Cheers Col.

eeee - Posted - 11/19/2013:  09:29:46

quote:

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Originally posted by OzCol

 

I must have missed something here.



I was taught a Dim arp was in minor 3rds.



Therefore a Dim chord is 1, b3,b5,6.

A Half Dim chord is 1,b3,b5,b7.



 

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That's right. A half diminished chord is also sometimes called a minor 7 flat 5.

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 11/19/2013:  17:21:27

quote:

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Originally posted by OzCol





3rd str. G to E and same pattern on 4th str.

 

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This had me confused for a minute. It is the same finger pattern but a semi-tone higher.

So the notes are from the 4th string up...G..Bb..Db....3rd..E..G ....2nd..Bb..Db....1st..E..G.

But...learn all the Dom b9 chords because the dim chord is considered as a ''rootless b9''....

OzCol - Posted - 11/20/2013:  00:18:46

quote:

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Originally posted by Henry George

 

quote:

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Originally posted by OzCol





3rd str. G to E and same pattern on 4th str.

 

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This had me confused for a minute. It is the same finger pattern but a semi-tone higher.

So the notes are from the 4th string up...G..Bb..Db....3rd..E..G ....2nd..Bb..Db....1st..E..G.

But...learn all the Dom b9 chords because the dim chord is considered as a ''rootless b9''....

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Yeh its a pattern.

I play it with fingers 1 and 3 and shift with each string.