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ARCHIVED TOPIC: Theory Made Easy

Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/34478

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/10/2013: 15:02:05

So I was just reading about someone using (or not using) a C#dim7 chord and thought, "There are probably a few folks who don't understand what all the code means," so let me be the helpful person I so often am and explain it. First letter=C. Play a C chord. #=sharp. Means you are to play the C chord sharply, staccatoey. Dim=short for diminished, so you should play your staccatoey C chord a bit lighter than usual, less forcefully. The last number, the 7? Simply play the C chord seven times.

Hope this information helps, (and I'll be glad to answer all your other theory questions, too!)

Humbled

rosinhead - Posted - 08/10/2013: 17:22:02

Staccatoey. I like that . All these years of confusion cleared up in about 15 seconds. I believe I will use this new found knowledge to start a jazz fiddle trio. I shall be next Stephane Grappelli.

withnall - Posted - 08/10/2013: 17:41:16

So an augmented triad is you and 2 friends on open mike night and an inverted chord is how you play it after having a lot of beer and loosing a bet about being able to stand on your head?
As an Australian, I REALLY hope the chord "root position" doesn't mean what I think it does

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/10/2013: 18:46:28

quote:
Originally posted by withnall

So an augmented triad is you and 2 friends on open mike night and an inverted chord is how you play it after having a lot of beer and loosing a bet about being able to stand on your head?

As an Australian, I REALLY hope the chord "root position" doesn't mean what I think it does

LOL!!!!!!

Round Wound - Posted - 08/10/2013: 20:28:10

quote:
Originally posted by withnall

So an augmented triad is you and 2 friends on open mike night and an inverted chord is how you play it after having a lot of beer and loosing a bet about being able to stand on your head?

As an Australian, I REALLY hope the chord "root position" doesn't mean what I think it does

Withnall,

When I first came to Aussie I was fitting kitchens. Everything in the workshop was....rooted, that's rooted, you're rooted etc. We had a top with a bad scratch, almost in the sink cutout area. I was told if it wouldn't work bring it back and we make a new one. It didn't work and I'm packing it up and the woman sez " what's wrong with that one? sez I " ah ma'am its rooted. " Her jaw dropped, then I remembered the real significance. I quickly apologized and said I was just a " new chum ".

Edited by - Round Wound on 08/10/2013 20:35:47

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/11/2013: 00:42:15

Humbled,

What you REALLY need to watch out for is those augminished and demented chords!!!

boxbow - Posted - 08/11/2013: 05:08:29

Please, people, let's confine ourselves to the original post. "Diminished" is actually derived from two words, dimension and vanished, hence its use in this case of lighter, less forceful play in a sharply staccatoey setting. As the notes leave the known universe, there is a slight dopplering (wavelenth compression causing the note to go sharp) followed by a brief "pop" as the air rushes in to fill the sudden void. It's all well-documented. Never, ever play undocumented notes.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/11/2013: 05:52:29

Well now, some fiddlers swear that there's no way to get to the root position using a diminished motif. Yet it is true, too, that as we age the demented chords seem to be played more frequently. Of course, this is all theory, and perhaps we need some Aussies (good with this sort of thing) to test these propoundments scientifically.

withnall - Posted - 08/11/2013: 07:20:41

quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

Well now, some fiddlers swear that there's no way to get to the root position using a diminished motif. Yet it is true, too, that as we age the demented chords seem to be played more frequently. Of course, this is all theory, and perhaps we need some Aussies (good with this sort of thing) to test these propoundments scientifically.

I'm happy to volunteer myself for this experiment.

BUT as I'm an Aussie living in the Cayman Islands (i.e. the wrong hemisphere) will I have to restring my fiddle? G at the bottom etc? Or just play it left-handed?

Is a note diminished in the Northern hemisphere also diminished in the Southern?

I'm so conufsed by this theory stuff, so much harder than I thought ;-)

Ellie

RobBob - Posted - 08/11/2013: 08:06:41

And to think I always drink my fifths before I flatten them.

OTJunky - Posted - 08/11/2013: 09:49:36

quote:
Originally posted by withnall

...
Is a note diminished in the Northern hemisphere also diminished in the Southern?

I'm so conufsed by this theory stuff, so much harder than I thought ;-)

Ellie

Dunno - but I can say for sure than when a diminished note leaves the fiddle it rotates counter clockwise in the Northern hemisphere but clockwise in the Southern hemisphere.

I think it's the opposite for augmented notes.

--OTJ

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/11/2013: 12:29:09

Me and my buddies tried going around a circle of fifths, trying to diminish them, but never made it all the way around. Initially it seemed to our playing was augmented, but after diminishing enough of the fifths our playing was definitely diminished.

Perhaps Professor Humbled can help with this other theory terminology question; sometimes when folks at the jam play, they slow down a part (especially at endings) it usually sounds dumb to me, as it's rarely together, - I know in notation it's marked as rit. for the Italian - ritardando - I get the first part of the word, to make it sound retarded (which they succeed at), but what's the and-o?

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/11/2013 12:33:00

mudbug - Posted - 08/12/2013: 02:56:13

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Perhaps Professor Humbled can help with this other theory terminology question; sometimes when folks at the jam play, they slow down a part (especially at endings) it usually sounds dumb to me, as it's rarely together, - I know in notation it's marked as rit. for the Italian - ritardando - I get the first part of the word, to make it sound retarded (which they succeed at), but what's the and-o?

It's just the Italians having fun. Kinda like Old MacDonald doing the "e-i-e-i-o", or the Irish with all the "Fol-de-ral-diddley do-dah".

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 08/12/2013: 18:46:13

Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks for this illuminating discussion

kindascratchy - Posted - 08/13/2013: 09:30:37

Oh, man...you mean I've been playing chords wrong all these years? Then that means bar chords are way more fun than I thought. Better start practicing them again. Cheers! (hic)

tonyelder - Posted - 08/13/2013: 14:11:31

I don't know about theories, but when it comes to bar chords - I think it's pretty doggone sharp if you can pull-off anything major, after getting hammered-on fifths.

Edited by - tonyelder on 08/13/2013 14:12:29

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 08/13/2013: 15:23:29

With Old TIme music, one usually needs a C, G, D, A, and sometimes an Eminor chord .. Other than that, it just doesn't sound right... On TWO occasions, while busking with other musician, I had the opportunity to say, " WOW, you really sounded great on that tune. Whatever you were doing, it really Worked.".. Each time the other musician replied, "I didn't know the tune so I just played some root chords..you know, C, G, D, A..." I stand by this comment..!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/13/2013: 16:42:50

No doubt playing chords in bars often, due to drinking, loud talking and hollering, requires playing with power in a major way. (the audience is sometimes almost equally involved with the drinking and hollering) - and generally minors in bars, while sometimes allowed, are often frowned upon or prohibited.

When playing in an organic, herbal, chai tea environment (or tai chi) you probably should not play bar chords; ironically that is where a C#dim7 might be heard. Of course some of those places you might go for the very advanced music theory where you just need the one note, great for sing-alongs with highly developed single note harmony. I could tab it out for you. Edit; it is perhaps similar to digeridoo music theory, including chords, but I defer to Humbled as more of the expert on all didgeridoo music theory. How does one get a C#dim7 on the digeridoo?

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/13/2013 16:48:15

withnall - Posted - 08/13/2013: 18:10:57

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

How does one get a C#dim7 on the digeridoo?

I believe you throw it at a banjo player and if your aim is good he may play one during his death throes.

Ellie

Round Wound - Posted - 08/13/2013: 20:45:17

While very pleasing in some contexts, the general rule is didgeridon't

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/13/2013: 20:48:03

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

including chords, but I defer to Humbled as more of the expert on all didgeridoo music theory. How does one get a C#dim7 on the digeridoo?

A good buddy went over to Australia and came back with a digeridoo. We pleaded for it to be a digeridon't.

Yet if my memory is not clearly clouded over and rained upon and flooded way down the river, the digeridoo was chorded by sitting three digeridooists close together. The first played an A note, low and not entirely sonorous; the second (on a second digeridoo) formulated a C natural, (naturally and out in the middle of nature, under Eucalyptus Wig Wam Bom Bom trees); and the third lurched forth with a tremelo betwixt an A# and a B--all in order to scare and skedaddle away the great Boomba Choomba McToomba Bleck Billed kangeroo. Why would such a terrible animal and predator be skeered away by such a chording? Glad you asked. And here's where theory is important.

A-chording to AMTA (American Music Theory Assoc.), a chord consists of three notes. We like notes played together which generally are at least three half steps apart. The further apart the notes, the more our ears will accept notes which would sound horrible closer together. Notes played right next to each other (in Western theory) sound the worstest, horriblest, and lousiest. We don't like C and C# played together. We don't like C and D played together--unless you're Dave Mathews and you play the D an octave higher (called a 9th then) (and everyone then loves you.) Go up one more half tone (key of the piano) and you're okay, for a C and an Eb make for a minor motif. And so on.

I'm tired of teaching you clowns. But luckily for you a video has been made which covers all this stuff in detail:

youtube.com/watch?v=a_Y6UKMp8Qw

You're welcome,

Humbled

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/14/2013: 19:08:58

Note to self. If you want to close a thread, talk about the great Bloomba Choomba McToomba Bleck Billed kangeroo. Works every time.

withnall - Posted - 08/14/2013: 19:43:51

quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

Note to self. If you want to close a thread, talk about the great Bloomba Choomba McToomba Bleck Billed kangeroo. Works every time.

What if you were to talk about the preferred bowing pattern of the Bloomba Choomba McToomba Bleck Billed Fiddlin' Kangaroo?

I reckon with little short arms like he has he'd almost certainly use some kind of shuffle. Maybe the Aussie Double-Inverted Southern Shuffle?

Ellie

PS- And I BET he uses a shoulder rest.............

Jaunskots - Posted - 08/15/2013: 07:04:08

Just hope that the Bloomba Choomba McToomba Black Billed Fiddlin' 'Roo doesn't always play chords in root position, let alone inversions. No wonder he needs a rest and shuffles oddly.

KCFiddles - Posted - 08/15/2013: 08:14:14

quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec

With Old TIme music, one usually needs a C, G, D, A, and sometimes an Eminor chord .. Other than that, it just doesn't sound right... On TWO occasions, while busking with other musician, I had the opportunity to say, " WOW, you really sounded great on that tune. Whatever you were doing, it really Worked.".. Each time the other musician replied, "I didn't know the tune so I just played some root chords..you know, C, G, D, A..." I stand by this comment..!

Some contrasting ideas from Charlie Walden:

The harmonics of Missouri fiddle music are another distinguishing feature. There are very few of the sort of modal tunes heard in the eastern United States and there is very little interest in such music. Even when the melody suggests otherwise, Missouri fiddlers prefer the dominant (V7 chord) over the modal (VII chord) when ending a phrase or tune. They'll even alter the melody to achieve such harmony. Consider the coarse part1 of "Old Joe Clark" in A which usually involves a hard G note and G chord in the 4th bar. Most Missouri fiddlers will play a G# and the guitarist an E chord.

Another important harmonic consideration is that the "Missouri Rules of Harmony" require a certain chord progression for most hoe-downs. Consider the coarse part of "Soldier's Joy." I've heard many folks back East accompany as follows:

D / | D / | D / | A / | D / | D / | A / | D

Missourians want it this way:

D / | D / | D / | A / | D D7/F# | G G/B | A A/C# | D

The melody of the tune in no way suggests this pattern of chords. However, the insertion of the IV chord (or G) in the 6th bar serves a couple of purposes. The structure of most fiddle tunes is such that on any given eight bar part there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between the first four bars and the second four bars. The presence of this chord gives a clear signal as to where you are in the tune. Also, this harmonic progression from I to IV to V chord provides a forward momentum to the music which is lacking if such a progression is not used. Frankly, I can't get right with my playing if I don't hear the accompaniment in this way. This pattern is also widely used in Canadian old-time and Texas fiddling. It is also the underlying pattern for most modern contest fiddling accompaniment. They've just added the passing chords between the I-IV-V to give a more complete moving base line, as shown below:

D6 D7/F# | G G#dim | D6 E9 | A7 A9/C# D D7/F# | G G#dim | A7 A9/C# | D

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/15/2013: 10:02:25

quote:
Originally posted by KCFiddles

quote:

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

With Old TIme music, one usually needs a C, G, D, A, and sometimes an Eminor chord .. Other than that, it just doesn't sound right... On TWO occasions, while busking with other musician, I had the opportunity to say, " WOW, you really sounded great on that tune. Whatever you were doing, it really Worked.".. Each time the other musician replied, "I didn't know the tune so I just played some root chords..you know, C, G, D, A..." I stand by this comment..!

Some contrasting ideas from Charlie Walden:

The harmonics of Missouri fiddle music are another distinguishing feature.   There are very few of the sort of modal tunes heard in the eastern United States and there is very little interest in such music. Even when the melody suggests otherwise, Missouri fiddlers prefer the dominant (V7 chord) over the modal (VII chord) when ending a phrase or tune. They'll even alter the melody to achieve such harmony. Consider the coarse part1 of "Old Joe Clark" in A which usually involves a hard G note and G chord in the 4th bar. Most Missouri fiddlers will play a G# and the guitarist an E chord.

Another important harmonic consideration is that the "Missouri Rules of Harmony" require a certain chord progression for most hoe-downs. Consider the coarse part of "Soldier's Joy." I've heard many folks back East accompany as follows:

     D / | D / | D / | A / | D / | D / | A / | D

Missourians want it this way:

     D / | D / | D / | A / | D D7/F# | G G/B | A A/C# | D

The melody of the tune in no way suggests this pattern of chords. However, the insertion of the IV chord (or G) in the 6th bar serves a couple of purposes. The structure of most fiddle tunes is such that on any given eight bar part there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between the first four bars and the second four bars. The presence of this chord gives a clear signal as to where you are in the tune. Also, this harmonic progression from I to IV to V chord provides a forward momentum to the music which is lacking if such a progression is not used. Frankly, I can't get right with my playing if I don't hear the accompaniment in this way. This pattern is also widely used in Canadian old-time and Texas fiddling. It is also the underlying pattern for most modern contest fiddling accompaniment. They've just added the passing chords between the I-IV-V to give a more complete moving base line, as shown below:

        D6 D7/F# | G G#dim | D6 E9 | A7 A9/C#         D D7/F# | G G#dim | A7 A9/C# | D

Thanks, KCfiddles, very interesting. I've thought that the A-G part of Old Joe Clark (and other such songs "Little Maggie," etc.) is a nod to the older, British Isles music, and quite possibly these American songs came from songs which were in fact Am-G (or verisimilitude). The major chordings might be more of an American thing?

Peghead - Posted - 08/16/2013: 09:46:03

This chord stuff is giving me a headache, I need to play some Irish tunes.

Fidleir - Posted - 08/16/2013: 10:59:27

quote:
Originally posted by Peghead

This chord stuff is giving me a headache, I need to play some Irish tunes.

YAY!!! Yes! We generally are happily chordless. My teacher explained it thusly "Irish music is primarily melodic. It isn't build on chords but rather melody." I do get so weary arguing this with people sometimes.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/16/2013: 11:09:04

quote:
Originally posted by Fidleir

quote:

Originally posted by Peghead

This chord stuff is giving me a headache, I need to play some Irish tunes.

YAY!!! Yes! We generally are happily chordless. My teacher explained it thusly "Irish music is primarily melodic. It isn't build on chords but rather melody." I do get so weary arguing this with people sometimes.

Hmmmmph! So YOU mighty be chordlessly happy; however, happiness ain't all it's cracked up to be (though how one cracks it I don't know). Indeed, if Irish music is built upon melody rather than chords, are you then suggesting that music built on chords is devoid of melody or less melodic!!!! Achording to whom! This I say, by dint of the fact that I am the one saying it, a chordal approach to tunes and songs creates less dischord and more euphony than any musical motif built solely upon a moldy melody line played o'er and o'er by all the musicians gathered (save the drunken bodhran players); moreover and forsooth and forthwith,...uh...I forgot what my point was....

tonyelder - Posted - 08/16/2013: 11:19:11

quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

...moreover and forsooth and forthwith,...uh...I forgot what my point was....

ahhhh-ha... that's gotta be a relative minor.

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 09/02/2013: 11:43:02

This topic reminds me of the "FIVE MINUTE UNIVERSITY"... In just five minutes you should be able to learn all of the important stuff about a topic and then get your diploma.... For example...Investing=buy low, sell high..........Old time fiddle=long, short, short. Carpentry=swing hard, move thumb...............MUSIC THEORY=if it sounds to sharp, play flatter: If it sounds too flat, play sharper........Really ! We make this stuff just too hard..

rosettewang91 - Posted - 03/09/2014: 17:48:49

Wish you guys were my music theory professors back in college. I could just imagine all those music theory courses cramped up into one term... Could've graduated earlier AND learned important terms like 'staccatoey'.

Edited by - rosettewang91 on 03/09/2014 17:49:18

Addie - Posted - 03/09/2014: 18:54:45

And here I thought the strings were chords, and that they diminished when I hear a pop and a twang. Augmenting doesn't work if the break is at the peg end: the knot won't fit through the peg hole. For that same reason, inversion doesn't work either, unless you slip that little brass thingie out first.

Hope this helps.

johnv - Posted - 03/13/2014: 17:53:53

johnv - Posted - 03/13/2014: 17:57:56

I'm a biginner but all you have to know is the following, Chord plus Melody or is it Melody plus Chord equils soothing sound to the ears---------- Dischord plus uneven notes equils NOISE to the ears, or something like that Cheers

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 03/26/2014: 09:02:44

quote:
Originally posted by Addie

And here I thought the strings were chords, and that they diminished when I hear a pop and a twang. Augmenting doesn't work if the break is at the peg end: the knot won't fit through the peg hole. For that same reason, inversion doesn't work either, unless you slip that little brass thingie out first.

Hope this helps.

Very much so...indeed so much so that the helpfulness becomes very much at the time that the much verily so's.

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 03/26/2014: 14:22:56

quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

quote:

Originally posted by Addie

And here I thought the strings were chords, and that they diminished when I hear a pop and a twang. Augmenting doesn't work if the break is at the peg end: the knot won't fit through the peg hole. For that same reason, inversion doesn't work either, unless you slip that little brass thingie out first.

Hope this helps.

Very much so...indeed so much so that the helpfulness becomes very much at the time that the much verily so's.