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leemysliwiec - Posted - 04/10/2012: 14:55:22
When? I hear that it is relatively new to classical music..
eric marten - Posted - 04/10/2012: 16:25:41
Not so - it goes back to the Baroque era, but was used less then. Also, open strings were used more prominently in that era - there was none of the abhorrence that twentieth century violinists had for the pure open string sound. But, truth be told, the open gut strings did have a warmer sound than the modern steel strings, especially the E.
Vibrato was sometimes overdone in the early classical period. The most famous teacher of that era, Leopold Mozart, (Wolfgang's father) railed against players of his day using too much vibrato, as if they had "the palsy." If Mozart had to criticize it so vehemently, it obvious was widespread. Things got more intense in the early twentieth century - Leopold Auer (associate of Tchaikowsky in the late 19th century), wrote in his book on violin playing, c. 1920, an admonishment to use it sparingly. The late 19th and early 20th century Viennese violinist Fritz Kreisler is credited with popularizing the constant vibrato we now associate with classical (and pop) violin playing.
mad baloney - Posted - 04/10/2012: 16:53:14
all I can say is nothing ruins Bach quite a quick as using tons of spazzato
Edited by - mad baloney on 04/10/2012 16:56:54
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/10/2012: 18:23:39
Don't know, but what about old time? I know it's supposed to not be heard in old time...but...I have heard people who walked a line between old time and bluegrass or something...and made good stuff happen by dabbling vibrato here and there...not for the beautiful sustains of classical playing, but more of an intensity added to the attitude of the tune being played...lol...to me, anyway, tunes have attitude, fiddles have attitude, and people do too...so vibrato might be a way to slap on more attitude here and there...or is it just me? Not speaking from any factual knowledge...just what I think somewhere in the back of my mind...some far away fiddle memories??????
rcc - Posted - 04/10/2012: 20:32:09
In old-time, it's used like it used it was in very old classical music: as a sonic ornament. Something you tastefully add to a note here and there. If you listen to the old guys, you'll hear it.
As opposed to more modern classical music where it's all vibrato all the time.
There's nothing inherently non-old-time about vibrato. You just have to use it carefully and sparingly. Like the difference between using a pinch of salt and pouring in the whole bag.
ricmic - Posted - 04/10/2012: 23:02:35
The best and main use of vibrato is to cover faulty intonation. I prefer to hear the the unaddoned sound of accurate intonation
mudbug - Posted - 04/11/2012: 02:22:06
Yeah. early 20th century violinists and vocalists abused vibrato, but the best of the modern players seem to use it judiciously. In Scottish fiddling it's used as an adornment and not to hide bad intonation. As with anything, moderation is the key. It's not logical to say that you wouldn't learn it and use it because you've heard it abused. Taking that argument to it's conclusion, why fiddle after hearing how bad beginners sound?
OTJunky - Posted - 04/11/2012: 04:44:49
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
When? I hear that it is relatively new to classical music..
Vibrato is popular?
--OTJ
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/11/2012: 11:23:26
I read somewhere that vibrato in it's modern classical form came into classical via gypsy violin/fiddle from Eastern Europe during the Romantic era when there was a lot of interest in folk music styles (Brahms Hungarian Dances, for example) and the emphasis was on drama and expressing emotion.
In contrast, in the Baroque and Classical eras, Classical music (the classical period and Classical music are not quite the same, confusing, eh?)had a more restrained approach to emotion, and so it would make sense that the use of vibrato was more restrained.
There is also the influence of opera, which is also part of classical music. Operatic vibrato is VERY extreme, and violin is the instrument probably most capable of imitating the human voice. Anyway, I'm guessing that there is also some influence from that.
I'd also take a look at Paganini, who was VERY influential, and probably the prototype for the modern violin soloist.... did he use vibrato, and how much???
(later, after doing some "googling"...)
Here is an interesting article from a baroque point of view:
standingstones.com/stringvib.html
The article is basically AGAINST constant vibrato. (I can relate!)
He points out that Paganini did use it in the "Caprices" but ONLY at certain points.
And another from Leopold Auer, who saw the overuse of vibrato as a grave evil:
standingstones.com/auer.html
Here's an article on Hungarian and Gypsy fiddle which does mention the vibrato as part of the Gypsy fiddle style "slow and wide":
fiddlingaround.co.uk/hungarian/index.html
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/11/2012 11:58:33
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/11/2012: 12:02:49
Interesting Wikipedia article on vibrato, especially this section:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrato#Vibrato_wars
One thing that comes up occasionally in such articles is that for violinists, vibrato isn't JUST a means of expressing emotion,
but is also a device for increasing the "amplitude" (or "volume" or loudness) of the sound.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/11/2012 12:05:50
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/11/2012: 12:23:48
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
When? I hear that it is relatively new to classical music..
Vibrato is popular?
--OTJ
In the widest sense of the word "of the people", no.
Very few popular singers use much of it, if at all.... although I think that's a generational thing- the Beatles didn't use it, and I think young boomers LIKED them for it. And I think it was uncommon in most of the popular singers after that...except for Melanie!!!!
Popular among Old Time players... no. (but then, Old Time music isn't very popular, either)
Popular among modern violinists? I'd say so, but there are indications that the pendulum is swinging away from it towards at least moderation in the use of it.... a GOOD THING, IMO!!!
Part of my problem with vibrato is that to express emotions in speaking, people's voices quiver or quaver rather rapidly... and so to get that effect, it would have to be a FAST vibrato.... and not much at that.
To me, a slow, constant vibrato sounds unearthly, inhuman, and alien.
I use vibrato pretty often when playing electric guitar, but on a guitar, the sound is fading as the vibrato is being used, making it much less obtrusive, plus it's a fairly fast vibrato.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/11/2012: 13:24:38
I had wondered about the correlation of singing styles and the violin/fiddle, vibrato being one part.
I tend to think of non-vibrato as being a bit more earthy, organic. solid, if not gutsier quality. Might be the sparseness of the music (ornament is one aspect) directs attention to a more direct and concise expression of the music. When executed well, it sounds like it is coming from deep within a person's soul, and vibrato risks diminishing that. Especially when using non-equal temperament. Equal temperament might have a correlation to the rise (and/or the width and depth) of vibrato? Both ET and vibrato tend to make the music more excited (not necessarily exciting) creating a a bit of a shimmering, if not buzzed sound.
One interesting thing though is in blues and blues rooted rock (as opposed to pop) - the vocal style tends to lack vibrato; but the electric guitar and slide guitar sometimes has a vibrato to it, though guitar vibrato is different than violin or vocal.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 04/11/2012 13:27:57
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 04/12/2012: 07:36:28
In the baroque era, vibrato was considered to be an ornament. When our contemporary performance practice movements arose (HIP: Historically Informed Practice), wherein the goal was to produce sounds consistent with what the artists felt were produced during the era the works were written, there was a lot of performance and recording without much vibrato.
In response, you have the famous and often quoted remark by Pinchas Zukerman that "nobody likes that crap" and the firestorm that followed. Zukerman recommends an "almost continuous vibrato."
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 04/12/2012 07:37:40
IdleHands - Posted - 04/12/2012: 08:23:24
I think nailing notes solidly without the crutch of vibrato a) sounds better, and b) takes better intonation skills.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/12/2012: 09:21:10
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
In the baroque era, vibrato was considered to be an ornament. When our contemporary performance practice movements arose (HIP: Historically Informed Practice), wherein the goal was to produce sounds consistent with what the artists felt were produced during the era the works were written, there was a lot of performance and recording without much vibrato.
In response, you have the famous and often quoted remark by Pinchas Zukerman that "nobody likes that crap" and the firestorm that followed. Zukerman recommends an "almost continuous vibrato."
"Firestorm" you say... the wikipedia article on vibrato that I linked to had a whole section entitled "Vibrato Wars"!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/12/2012: 09:50:15
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
I think nailing notes solidly without the crutch of vibrato a) sounds better, and b) takes better intonation skills.
I tend to agree with you, and I HAVE heard some people who seem to be trying to mask bad intonation with vibrato, sort of like French chefs invented fancy sauces to cover up the taste of meat of dubious edibility.
However, not all who play violin use it that way. I don't think violinists who truly deserve the name use it that way.
Some of the things I have read about vibrato seem to be connected to a quality of the violin itself, that only vibrato brings out, and that I think you can only appreciate live. I'm actually guessing from what I've seen described, but it sounds a lot like some of my experiences with chorus pedals and electric guitar.
Chorus pedals add this kind of quavery sound (that I'm not too fond of) to an electric guitar, However, most of those pedals have stereo outputs, and if you have TWO amplifiers, and run each output into a separate amplifier, you get this wonderful effect of the sound shimmering through space... suddenly, it sounds VERY three dimensional!
One channel of chorus =
Stereo chorus channels = 
And I get the idea that when we hear classical vibrato in a recording, we can't REALLY hear what's happening.
From the descriptions, if you get to hear a top level soloist on one of the good genuine Strad or equivalent, in a big concert hall, the vibrato sends waves of sound pulsing out of the violin in different directions in a very similar way... and I can imagine that if that effect is anything like the electric guitar chorus, it could be ADDICTIVE.
Thankfully, I'm not addicted yet, and I don't intend to get that way, because it's a VERY expensive addiction.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/12/2012: 09:54:30
One of the more startling statements in one of the articles I read on vibrato yesterday, was that
vibrato went from being a special effect that was only used in passages marked for vibrato playing, to being so normal,
that composers assumed it would be used all the time, and then
PLAYING WITHOUT IT WAS MARKED IN THE MUSIC AS A SPECIAL EFFECT!!!!!
THAT is a HUGE change.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 04/12/2012: 09:58:16
I like Zuckerman and Perlman, Ma, Serkin and all those artists who have enjoyed such great success (I actually like Hahn and Sonnenburg better), but I was sort of shocked by Zuckerman's remark. I think I was surprised he was so undiplomatic, I guess. And I disagree with him; I *do* like baroque performance practice music, very much.
On the issue of vibrato and intonation, as a teacher I feel you have to establish intonation very firmly before vibrato is addressed.
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 04/12/2012 10:05:44
Mandogryl - Posted - 04/12/2012: 10:34:49
Intonation and vibrato are separate subjects altogether.
Vibrato was never intended as a crutch for poor intonation.
In Suzuki, vibrato is no even mentioned until book three.
DougD - Posted - 04/12/2012: 11:00:53
I'd say vibrato began when some poor old fiddler woke up with a bad case of the shakes.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/12/2012: 12:13:48
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
On the issue of vibrato and intonation, as a teacher I feel you have to establish intonation very firmly before vibrato is addressed.
Yes, a good point- I saw that come up several times in the articles on vibrato.
I also hear something very similar going on with slides and Bluegrass fiddling. Some people are so passionately attracted to Bluegrass fiddling, that they jump in without any preparation. (Historically many Bluegrass fiddlers first learned Old Time tunes at their daddy's knee- now many put in stints as contest fiddlers, or even get classical instruction) And SLIDES are practically an intrinsic part of Bluegrass fiddling style. Well, if you get someone whose sense of intonation REALLY isn't established yet, and they try and do a slide, the chances of them ENDING the slide in the right place are SLIM to NONE.
One of the reasons I think I was turned off to Bluegrass in the early 1970s was I heard too many of these not-quite-right slides coming from aspiring Bluegrass fiddlers.
I didn't realize this about Bluegrass fiddling until I did some time trying to learn electric blues guitar a few years back... well, BENDS are as intrinsic to blues guitar as slides are to Bluegrass fiddle and vibrato is to classical. And there are SO many people attempting to play blues guitar who NEVER get those bends right.... they bend them sharp, they bend them flat, anywhere but to the right microtone (which very well may not be a tempered third, but it still sounds RIGHT in the context of Blues). Now, having been through this with blues, I can hear Bluegrass, and the slides now make sense... sometimes I can even sort of mentally correct for when a fiddler slides too far!
The basic lesson in all this is that you really can't do a technique (vibrato, bends, slides) that messes with pitches in any way until you've internalized what the correct pitches are (for your culture and style of music). They really are somewhat advanced techniques.
I also now know better than to judge a style of music on the basis of what beginning to intermediate players in that style are doing- their enthusiasm is wonderful, but sometimes there is something they aren't quite getting right, and it can give the genre a bad rep.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/12/2012: 13:59:34
I like the "chorus" example. Single or stereo. It's an effects (usually as a pedal) It has it's use, but only for creating a chorus sound. While it does widen/fatten the sound, that is not always a positive. It can (like other effects)cover up some other tonal shortcomings of your ax/amp and technique. Many styles of music it would just sound wrong. It can muddy, the clear piercing directness.
There are different uses for vibrato, and slightly different ways of vibrato. In the right context it can sound great. It's in understanding the context, how vibrato will make it sound, what it will add, but also what it will diminish, divert the attention away from. All effects, ornaments have that; and risk that you notice the effect/ornament more than the other aspects of the music. All of those can end up being a crutch, rather than addressing.
As far as intonation - Equal temperament starts with a different idea of intonation, with weaker intervals. Vibrato can serve to try and fatten up the notes in ET. As well vibrato works well to mask that the ET is not quite in tune, widening the window of what can be considered "in tune". Just intonation has solid strong intervals, that form form a tight bond, that not only not need to be fattened, but diminish the sound of that tight bond. Think of like shape note singing. Vibrato, can be a crutch, (and I have observed it) in that if avoids ever developing solidly idea of intonation.
As far as the sliding, that is a common technique beginners find. I don't buy into the concept that beginners have not established concept of intonation. Often they do have a reasonable idea of intonation in their head, the sliding is just in not sure how to nail it with the finger placement, so they slide into (usually up to) the note. There chances are pretty good they end the slide at reasonable spot. And they also find that sound of sliding into can sound good, though they might overuse it, like other effects. No doubt, like vibrato, it could become a crutch.
Of course the other aspect about vibrato is the speed of notes played and the effect it can have on the rhythmic articulation, which might be part why fiddling doesn't use vibrato much.
jet - Posted - 04/12/2012: 23:11:59
My instructor, trained solidly in the Official Violin and Viola schools, plays vibrato far more often than required by the score and notation. But the way she does it brings a lot of personal style to the piece, what I can only call "color". Her vibrato is just how she plays, but she chooses well enough that it works.
On the other hand, I would never expect a band like Carolina Chocolate Drops to use vibrato well then they go and prove me wrong:
youtube.com/watch?v=bNaK_nBp2Yc
mudbug - Posted - 04/13/2012: 03:07:44
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
I think nailing notes solidly without the crutch of vibrato a) sounds better, and b) takes better intonation skills.
Strong wording. Are you trying to convince others or yourself?
DougD - Posted - 04/13/2012: 05:29:25
jet - I don't find that so surprising. Rhiannon Giddens is a graduate of the Oberlin Conservatory (in voice studies) and before the Chocolate Drops she was singing opera, among other interests. opera.fiorabella.com/bio.html
That particular tune came from a printed collection - no one knows how it was originally played. That's a haunting performance though.
BTW - Have you seen this YouTube clip of that tune? The lighting makes it even spookier, I think: youtube.com/watch?v=_Sk3mNm2Mfs
Edited by - DougD on 04/13/2012 05:35:09
IdleHands - Posted - 04/13/2012: 07:54:10
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
I think nailing notes solidly without the crutch of vibrato a) sounds better, and b) takes better intonation skills.
I tend to agree with you, and I HAVE heard some people who seem to be trying to mask bad intonation with vibrato, sort of like French chefs invented fancy sauces to cover up the taste of meat of dubious edibility.
However, not all who play violin use it that way. I don't think violinists who truly deserve the name use it that way.
Some of the things I have read about vibrato seem to be connected to a quality of the violin itself, that only vibrato brings out, and that I think you can only appreciate live. I'm actually guessing from what I've seen described, but it sounds a lot like some of my experiences with chorus pedals and electric guitar.
Chorus pedals add this kind of quavery sound (that I'm not too fond of) to an electric guitar, However, most of those pedals have stereo outputs, and if you have TWO amplifiers, and run each output into a separate amplifier, you get this wonderful effect of the sound shimmering through space... suddenly, it sounds VERY three dimensional!
One channel of chorus =
Stereo chorus channels =
And I get the idea that when we hear classical vibrato in a recording, we can't REALLY hear what's happening.
From the descriptions, if you get to hear a top level soloist on one of the good genuine Strad or equivalent, in a big concert hall, the vibrato sends waves of sound pulsing out of the violin in different directions in a very similar way... and I can imagine that if that effect is anything like the electric guitar chorus, it could be ADDICTIVE.
Thankfully, I'm not addicted yet, and I don't intend to get that way, because it's a VERY expensive addiction.
Exactly. Pedals were cool for about two years when i was in high school.
pinch - Posted - 04/16/2012: 09:39:34
"These strings were hand spun, in the same manner as they made yarn and therefore were not uniform in thickness and density throughout. This meant that their vibration wasn’t uniform, either, and the pitch actually fluctuated as you played it!"
Interesting! They should make some metal strings with the same non-uniformity.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/16/2012: 16:59:14
Oh my gosh...those strings would drive me batty!
mad baloney - Posted - 04/16/2012: 17:03:41
quote:
Originally posted by pinch
"These strings were hand spun, in the same manner as they made yarn and therefore were not uniform in thickness and density throughout. This meant that their vibration wasn’t uniform, either, and the pitch actually fluctuated as you played it!"
Interesting! They should make some metal strings with the same non-uniformity.
My pitch actually fluctuates when I play so maybe the shoddy strings & my shoddy playing would meet halfway & I'd be all set
DougD - Posted - 04/16/2012: 18:11:13
I think all strings fluctuate in pitch somewhat, depending on how hard you bow (or pluck) them. One more thing to think about.
