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scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/17/2012: 05:44:07
I've been working on a document for a long time which is a list of the various articulations used for violin playing. (There are other things on there, as well; stuff about mutes, parts of the bow, down bow/up bow, etc.)
This page gets a lot of hits and is especially liked by composers (especially if they're not string players) and students:
Terminology: Common String Articulations
So far, what I have on the page is the following:
What I would like to find out about is what are the common terminologies, specific to fiddle? I think those should be added to the list. What do you think should be added? (I've already updated the Scordatura link, based on suggestions from this board).
TIA,
Connie
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 03/17/2012 09:13:28
mudbug - Posted - 03/17/2012: 13:48:00
Let's see, ya got "scrunch" , which is the fiddle equivalent of martele. Ya got "chopping", which I believe is like richochet. Scortadura is known as "open tuning". Vibrato is not used by all fiddlers, but those that do , call it vibrato. Some use harmonics and some pizz. Probably most of the violin techniques are or have been used by fiddlers, but they might not even call them by a specific name.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/17/2012: 14:03:45
Even though it's mostly French and Italian, it's gonna be Greek to most fiddlers.
One of the problems is that there aren't all that many phrases, since fiddling was originally passed on my imitation,
and music notation was rarely used. Also, many phrasing approaches that would be specified by a composer in classical music are left entirely up to the individual fiddler as part of his or her personal style. So there is no need for a word, you "just do it". However, normally you "just do it" after either having grown up in the tradition, or have done enough listening to at least partially make up for not having grown up in the tradition.
So there are big gaps in the terminology... there was no need in a living tradition to exhaustively describe them all.
Looking through the definitions, most North American fiddlers play mildly "detache" (separated) a lot, except when they slur.
Sawstroke (single strokes) are often used to get passage to sound separated, although there are a few fiddlers (Kenny Baker was one
They also play "marcato", and slurring is often a technique to make the accents stand out even more.
There are specific rhythmic combinations of single notes and slurs usually call "shuffles". Two of the most common (and the ones with the most established traditional names) are Nashville Shuffle and Georgia Shuffle. Others exist however- various people have attempted to name them, but so far none have stuck as well as Nashville Shuffle and Georgia Shuffle. I have heard series of two notes slurs called "Kentucky Bow", but only once here on the Fiddle Hangout.
The downbow rule is usually followed in Bluegrass, Texas, and Contest Old Time, and used by many US Old Time players as well, and as you say with classical there are exceptions. One reason for common use of the downbow rule is that it works along with the fairly common sawstroke approach to impart "bounce" to the sawstroked passages.
However, there are players who REVERSE the rule, and are called upbowers, and also those who ignore it to some degree or another (there is no traditional term for this- I call them "anywhichwayers")
Left hand pizzicato is occasionally used on specific Old Time tunes. "Pop Goes the Weasel", Bonaparte's Retreat, and "Drunken Hiccups" being three.
Scordatura (non-standard tunings) was often used in the more archaic traditional styles, and left hand pizzicato is often (but not always) used in conjunction with scordatura. For instance, "Drunken Hiccups and some common versions of Bonaparte's Retreat use three successive notes played with left hand pizzicato in one of the parts.
Luther Strong and William Stepp, both recorded for the Library of Congress archives, are outstanding examples of fiddlers who played with scordatura all the time... or at least in all of their recordings for the LOC. William Stepp was the fiddler whose version of Bonaparte's Retreat (which didn't use l.h. pizzicato) was used as the main theme of Aaron Copland's "Rodeo". It's pretty common for fiddlers to go one way or the other on "tunings"- either they use tunings all the time (AEAE, GDGD, ADAE, and DDAD being the most common) or never or hardly ever use tunings except for one or two tunes that require it- especially Bonaparte's Retreat (DDAD, with the first D being tuned DOWN) or Black Mountain Rag (AEAC#).
There is a term used called "longbowing". I get the impression that traditionally this didn't mean anything approaching "son file" in classical, but just that most fiddlers tended to use single strokes and 2 note slurs, which makes it easy to keep the bow in one place. Fidders that use slurs of 3 notes or greater are likely to use more of the bow, like Tommy Jarrell, especially on long downstrokes, which still may only be 3 or 4 notes long.
Classical influence has been felt among fiddlers. J.P. Fraley mentioned hearing a violinist as a young man and liking the sound. His fiddling is unusually smooth for a fiddler. Clark Kessinger sometimes sawstroked passages, but also used long slurs for smoother passage.
This smoother approach similar to "son file" is often used for the "fills" between verses in Bluegrass songs, where the phrases need to be subtle and de-emphasized so as not to distract from the fiddler.
One aspect that has shaped some of the different uses of the bow is the instrumentation of dance bands (aka "string bands" since they were usually stringed instruments). It was common on the frontier and in the mountains for the fiddle to be the only instrument at a dance. This meant the fiddler had to emphasize the rhythm as well as the melody. Fiddle and banjo duets feature a rhythmic interplay where the fiddle and banjo are both playing rhythmically.
Rhythmic fiddling can certainly continue, and often does with the addition of a guitar, but with the guitar (and sometimes stand-up bass) the dancers can get rhythmic cues from the accompanist, and the fiddler is free to slur more and focus on melodic playing. In most areas of the U.S., a "dreadnought" shaped guitar, often a Martin D-18 or similar guitar is the preferred accompaniment. In Canadian and New England Contradance fiddling piano is often used instead.
In Irish Traditional fiddling, the fiddle doesn't define the phrasing as it does in North American fiddling styles- it is usually playing unison with various wind instruments like uilleann pipes, tranverse wooden flutes, or "tinwhistles", along with later additions like accordion, concertina, mandolin, and downtuned tenor banjos.
The fiddlers often attempt to mimic the phrasing of the pipes and whistles, resulting in a less "marcato" and less "detache" style. This varies with the region however. "Lift" is what Irish traditional players call a phrasing that inspires dancers.
It is very common for fiddlers to keep the bow on the strings all the time (dragging the bow) unless they are playing left hand pizzicato, but some "jete" phrases are used, often at the beginning of a tune or song as a kind of flourish. I'm curious if there is a traditional name for this... I'm not aware of it, but maybe it's because I don't do it.
There is/was a loose division of fiddlers in Appalachian Old Time between "hornpipe" or "hornpipey" fiddlers, and "hoedown" fidders.
Hornpipey fiddlers tend to use mostly sawstroke for an effect similar to the tunes in Cole's 1001 fiddle tunes (originally Ryan's Mammoth Collection) which was characteristic of urban 19th Century US fiddling. Hoedown fiddlers tend to use less sawstroke and more shuffle patterns, often interspersing Nashville Shuffle with other variant patterns. Two well known examples whose bowing can be seen on YouTube are Tommy Jarrell and Melvin Wine.
Hornpipey fidders tend to use more complex melodies which end up sounding a little like Baroque, hoedown fiddlers tend to use simpler versions of the tunes and to emphasize the rhythm with shuffle patterns. Outside of the Appalachians, whole regional traditions seem to have gone one way or the other, and so they don't use the terms as much.
Sawstroke = single strokes, often down-up, down-up.
Nashville Shuffle = two note slur followed by two single strokes, then repeat in the opposite directions.
Many common shuffle patterns are in some way related to the Nashville Shuffle, often using the same ending phrase. Or they can be the same motions, but offset in relation to the measure lines.
Georgia Shuffle = three note slurs used with isolated single stroke accents. The most common method is three note upbow slurs with the single stroke accents on the backbeat or offbeat- this method is the one commonly used in Bluegrass. Some Old Time fiddlers reverse this and put the three note slurs on the downstroke and the accents on single upbows. I have also heard it used to describe a single strong downstroke on the downbeat, followed by a three note slur on the upbow... this is sometimes called "downbeat Georgia".
Dragging the bow = the common technique of keeping the hair on the strings while playing.
Downbow fiddler = can refer either to starting with a downbow, or keeping the accents on the downbow, (downbow accent fiddling) or both.
Dowbow fiddlers usually use a down-up sawstroke, if they use sawstroke.
Upbow fiddler = fiddler who either starts on upbows, puts accents on the upbow, or both. Upbow fiddlers usually use an up-down sawstroke, if they use sawstroke.
Bounce = US term for playing in a way that inspires dancers
Lift = Irish Traditional term for playing in a way that inspires dancers.
I have also heard a term used "he can make a banjo talk!". This refers to playing expressively. Has anybody heard this used of a fiddler?
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/17/2012: 14:19:21
Michael; thank you for your scholarly analysis of that. If I have your permission, I'd like to add your terms to the list, along with a link to this thread. Is that okay?
Many thanks!
Connie
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/17/2012: 14:38:10
This is what I have so far:
beststudentviolins.com/terms.html#fiddle
KCFiddles - Posted - 03/17/2012: 15:09:17
Edit: Looks like Michael beat me to a lot of it, but I'll let this stand as I wrote it between customers:
Bow rocking, Figure-8 bowing, Train squeaks, Choo-choo bowing like you do or Orange Blossom Special, double Shuffle, Vassar's 4-part double shuffle, All kinds of other shuffle patterns that some of us use and others avoid , Double and triple stops, "primes", drones, interrupted bow (portato, loure, slurred staccato) a la Kenny Baker, Pete MacMahan, and Violet Hensley, bird-call harmonics (mockingbird), upbow accents on the backbeat (Billy Matthews does this a lot)
That's starting to maybe scratch the surface. One of the problems is, a lot of really good fiddlers don't talk that much about fiddling, they just do it. If you ask them how they bowed something, they are more likely to just say, "like this here," and show you.
The down bow rule is honored in the confusion as to whether in means downbow on the One, or on both the One and the Two, except when it doesn't work, which is a lot of the time for some styles. I figure out a tune in mostly detache (sawstroke) bowing then add slurs and accents to get the drive and sound that I want.
A lot of "long bow" old-time fiddlers, bluegrass and country fiddlers like MacMahan and Vassar Clements get a lot of articulation on a single bow by changing speed and/or pressure, or interrupting the stroke as mentioned above (slurred staccato, loure)
Here's a 2-minute bowing seminar from Vassar:
Lotta right and left hand pizz, jete, bow rocking and everything else from Jean Carignon.
Some more fancy stuff, including bowed triplets from Carignon
Then there's a lot of Irish technique that I don't know well enough to talk about: bowed triplets, crans, rolls, slurring across the beat, etc.
And I haven't even touched on Appalachian old time fiddling, Jazz, and alternative fiddlers such as Darol Anger and Casey Driessen, both known for funk rhythms and "chop" bowing.
Here are some interesting techniques from Driessen. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them didn't have names.
Aaron Weinstein's one of my favorite Jazz musicians. Here he uses a lot of slurred staccato and portato bowing, plus he gets a LOT of non-classical timbre with his bow technique.
I have dozens more examples, but I'll leave those to others to point out.
Edited by - KCFiddles on 03/17/2012 15:27:51
Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/17/2012: 19:22:29
You forgot the Tommy Jarrell scratch-unbearable, the Clyde Davenport Glide, and the Bruce Greene Fiddle Twirl (Bruce Greene has an injury that forces him to rotate his fiddle instead of moving his bow to hit different strings).
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/17/2012: 21:37:18
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
Michael; thank you for your scholarly analysis of that. If I have your permission, I'd like to add your terms to the list, along with a link to this thread. Is that okay?
Many thanks!
Connie
Sure... although it isn't REALLY scholarly... it's just what I've absorbed over almost 25 years of playing (that got interrupted for 15 years) and reading what I could get my hands on back in the day, and also since 2005 when I started. I can remember a lot of stuff, but for most of the stuff I could not for the life of me give you sources or footnotes or genuine scholarly stuff like that. AND I am wired for excess verbal and language skills (dyscalculic syndrome) which means when I regurgitate what I remember, it tends to SOUND more authoritative and system-atic than it is.
Woodwiz gets so many fiddlers in and out of his shop that he gets more contact with other fiddlers in a year than I got in 25!
So if you DO use my stuff, have someone like woodwiz check it out.
Also, my area of real familiarity is in Appalachian Old Time... there's a fair amount of familiarity with Bluegrass fiddlers by watching them in concerts back in the day and on YouTube videos. But except for Earl Collins, I'm not too familiar with fiddle styles west of the Mississippi... but then, when I do see/hear them in videos, I also see a lot of commonalities with Appalachian style... at least with the hornpipey fiddlers.
Woodwiz in contrast gets a lot of fiddlers in a lot of different styles in his shop.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/18/2012: 05:34:41
Pogo...I'm glad about your dyscalculic syndrome...has helped me as my fiddling develops!
Sue B. - Posted - 03/18/2012: 05:54:59
I sometimes use classical terms to point violinists wanting to "sound right" on the fiddle towards what to do or not do, but it doesn't occur to me to catalog & categorize for fiddlers. People in classes sometimes will say to the teachers, including the likes of Rayna Gellert and Bruce Molsky, "Is that the ..... shuffle?", and the usual answer seems to be, "I don't know, don't think in those terms."
Mandogryl - Posted - 03/20/2012: 08:41:31
A dynamic that Andrea Beaton from Cape Breton taught me is the 'cut'.
two 16ths followed by an 8th on the same note in rapid succession.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/20/2012: 11:19:44
quote:
Originally posted by Sue B.
I sometimes use classical terms to point violinists wanting to "sound right" on the fiddle towards what to do or not do, but it doesn't occur to me to catalog & categorize for fiddlers. People in classes sometimes will say to the teachers, including the likes of Rayna Gellert and Bruce Molsky, "Is that the ..... shuffle?", and the usual answer seems to be, "I don't know, don't think in those terms."
I think you point to a significant difference between a violinist and a fiddler, the way they think (therefore approach) the music and the playing.
IdleHands - Posted - 03/22/2012: 10:05:36
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
quote:
Originally posted by Sue B.
I sometimes use classical terms to point violinists wanting to "sound right" on the fiddle towards what to do or not do, but it doesn't occur to me to catalog & categorize for fiddlers. People in classes sometimes will say to the teachers, including the likes of Rayna Gellert and Bruce Molsky, "Is that the ..... shuffle?", and the usual answer seems to be, "I don't know, don't think in those terms."
I think you point to a significant difference between a violinist and a fiddler, the way they think (therefore approach) the music and the playing.
Or maybe some fiddlers don't really care about or think in patterns? It could be that.
bj - Posted - 03/24/2012: 17:30:13
This kind of analysis is . . . anti-fiddle. Sorry, it just is. Having to articulate jargon for everything is an ACADEMIC way of looking at a subject. Fiddling isn't academic. Not at all. So the very thing you're trying to do makes it into something it's not and never will be.
Fidleir - Posted - 03/24/2012: 18:23:03
Or maybe some fiddlers don't really care about or think in patterns? It could be that.
BINGO!
mudbug - Posted - 03/25/2012: 04:17:23
quote:
Originally posted by bj
This kind of analysis is . . . anti-fiddle. Sorry, it just is. Having to articulate jargon for everything is an ACADEMIC way of looking at a subject. Fiddling isn't academic. Not at all. So the very thing you're trying to do makes it into something it's not and never will be.
I disagree. Just as Baroque and Classical violin share traits, but are different, so too, styles of fiddle. Scottish fiddle in partcular shares many techniques of Classical violin, but is still considered fiddling. Fiddling doesn't HAVE to be academic, especially as it was handed down in the mountain tradition, but in today's world, some folks learn mountain fiddle from sourses like instructors, where the best one's should be able to articulate techniques.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/25/2012: 06:46:10
Updated version with input from Brad Maloney:
beststudentviolins.com/terms.html#fiddle
OTJunky - Posted - 03/25/2012: 06:48:27
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
I disagree. Just as Baroque and Classical violin share traits, but are different, so too, styles of fiddle. Scottish fiddle in partcular shares many techniques of Classical violin, but is still considered fiddling. Fiddling doesn't HAVE to be academic, especially as it was handed down in the mountain tradition, but in today's world, some folks learn mountain fiddle from sourses like instructors, where the best one's should be able to articulate techniques.
I do have to say that after forty five years now of interacting with fiddlers one way or another, I've never been able to discern any correlation at all between the amount of "coursework" or "analysis" some fiddler has undertaken and his/her ability to fiddle.
Many - maybe most - of the fiddlers I've known have never had any formal instruction and don't seem to spend anytime at all on analysis. Instead they just pick up the sounds they like from listening to other fiddlers and try to either emulate or improve on what they hear - apparently according to some inner subjective standard.
That said, we know many fine fiddlers who've had extensive coursework and have undertaken extensive analysis in the classical realm before starting to fiddle - Betse Ellis, Rayna Gellert, fiddlerdi.
And probably most of us have encountered many aspiring fiddlers who've read all the books, taken lessons, and engaged in extensive analysis who still can't render a passable version of Soldier's Joy.
My conclusion from all this is that fiddling can be learned but can't be taught. In the final analysis a fiddler must have a point of view about how some tune ought to be played, then work to play it that way. Usually this point of view evolves over time from listening to a lot of other fiddlers play the tune, deciding what you like or don't like, then working that into what you can play - often leaving out things you like but can't play. So, it's a lot of listening and a lot of trial and error and nobody's likely to get through it all without a complete passion for the music.
When you run into one of the many potential "road blocks" a "teacher" can be a great help by showing you how to create some sound you can hear but can't yet make - though usually you can't take this kind of advice until you're ready to hear it. And commonly the "teacher" is just another fiddler at some "gathering" who happens to already be able to play something you've been trying to figure out. After all, you really only need a teacher when you need one. Most other times they're a waste of money.
I suppose there are many paths to any eventual goal so if course work and analysis seem to be working for somebody, then more power to him/her.
But I think there's no way to skip the listening and the experimentation because, in the end, the entire point of fiddling is to figure out how you personally are supposed to do it.... It's like jazz in that regard.
--OTJ
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/25/2012: 07:51:27
I don't think anybody's saying that fiddle music should be academic. That would defeat the whole purpose. Even so-called "art" music (symphonies, sonatas and the like) is not effective if it's academic. But people with analytical frames of mind (musicologists) have been analyzing folk and popular music forever; you're not going to stop that, and you shouldn't even want to.
I used to post to academically oriented musciology lists and they ran me off because I wasn't academic enough. I didn't mind. These people are scholars, much like scientists; unless you know their language, it's sometimes difficult to even understand what they're saying. There is a place for that in the human rainbow and I like looking at it. But I'm not a musicologist; just a music teacher and performer.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/25/2012: 12:14:13
i should have known; what I'm attempting to do (RE; fiddle) has already been done in FH. By
bullrambler - Posted - 09/16/2010: 17:25:54
fiddlehangout.com/archive/15566
Here is a list of fiddle terms from The Great Canadian Fiddle and some of our good friends at FHO may have some additional terms specific to parts of the USA (and beyond) to add to this list.
FIDDLE DEFINITIONS
Appalacian - A style of fiddling that comes from the Appalacian Mountains of the United States that uses modal sounds and techniques.
]Blue Grass - Amusical style that originated with Bill Monroe in the late 1930's with increased improvisation and flashiness. This style is primarily meant for a listening audience only.
Brudmarsch - A Swedish Bridal March
Cajun - A French-North American style that originated in the Maritme Canada with the "Acadiens", a group of French settlers in the present day Nova Scotia. This group was harassed by the British, moved to Southern Louisiana, and were issolated until the start of the twentieth century.
Cape Briton - A regional variance of Scotish fiddling with a more formal style. Players of this style include Winston "Scotty" Fitzgerald and the Cape Briton Symphony Fiddlers.
Celtic - A type of Scotish fiddling with the melody in a higher range usually imitating the soundsof the bagpipes.
English - A style where ornamentations are used sparingly and the bow is used simply.
French Canadian - A higly spirited style that borrows from French Folk music, Scottish and Irish fiddling, but leans towards a more rhythmic and less ornamental style. The favoured instrumentation is fiddle and piano.
Ganglat - A Swedish walking tune.
Irish - Attention is given to the ornaments and melody on an equal basis. Tunes in the Ionian mode (major scale), Dorian (a scale starting and ending on the second note of the major scale), Mixolydian (a scale starting and ending on the fifth note of the major scale) and Aeolian (natural minor scale) are equally common.
Maritime - Music with a brisk tempo and a spirited bounce that makes it very suitable for danciing. This is also referred to as the "Down East" style. Players of this style include Gerry Robichaud and Don Messer.
Metis - A mix of Scottish, French and Indian music with a highly spirited character and adjusted to suit the traditional Metis dance.
New England - A mix of Irish, Scottish and English fiddle techniques. Tunes can range from a simple English fashion to a highly ornamented style of Scottish/Irish fiddling.
Newfoundland - A local offshoot of Irish and Welch fiddling that is lively in spirit and quick in tempo.
Old Tymey - A pre-bluegrass stringband style with county dancey rhythms, including music from Vaudeville, minstrel shows, British Isles folk traditionals, early 78 RPM country recordings, old songs played on the fiddle, Appalachian modal tunes, and listening tunes unsuitable for dancing.
Ontario - A style of fiddling that is melodic in character and has it roots in the music of the British Isles. This is the most widely known fiddle styles in Canada.
Polska - Denotes two diffferent dances; 1. The Hambo" (eighth note) polska with a strongly marked 3/4 beat. 1. The "Slangspolka with a more even beat in 3/4 time.
Roundpeak - A highly rhythmic style of North Carolina fiddling ( ex. Tommy Jarrel).
Scandanavian - A highly melodic type of fiddle music that can be played in the harmony and sometimes on eight string or nine sting Hardanger" fiddles. They used regular violin tuniing but have four droning strings that run under the gingerboard and through the middle of the bridge.
Scottish - Where the right hand is used to bring out a wide variety of arpeggio and spicatto bowings. Reels are usually slower than in Ireland, and the roll, a staple Irish ornament, is rarely used.
Shetland - Has a lively style of its own taking from Sweden, Norway, Scotland and Ireland.
Skanklat - A Swedish gift giving tune at a wedding.
Sligo - A highly ornament ornamental Irish fiddling style typified by the playing of Michael Coleman, which originated in Sligo area of Ireland.
Southern - A mix of French, Spanish and British fiddling with very quick tempo and a heavy usage of double stops.
Texas style[/b ]- A style with highly developed melody variations and jazz-like backup from the accompanying instruments. Tempo is slower than Old-time and bluegrass. An example includes Bob Wills.
Ukrainian - An ethnic type of music that is high spirited, lyrical, and faster in tempo than traditional fiddle music. Much of this music is composed in minor keys.
Western swing - A form of popular music that originated from popular swing. Fiddling often aspires to the "hot" improvisation of jazz soloists such as Joe venut and Jean-Luc Pony.
FIDDLE TALK
Breakdowns -A fast reel played with a heavy beat, generally used to climax a square dance.
Clogging - A kind of heel-toe step dance performed by the seated fiddler when he plays; in Quebec, the steps are more intricate than the West where the dance is called "jigging".
Jig - Dance tune, usually moderate tempo with a swinging 6/8 beat.
Hornpipe - A strenuous solo sailor's dance in 4/4 time performed with arms folded.
Irish Bowing - Played with the bow tilted slighly outward to produce a light, sweet tone.
Air - slow song in which the violin initiates the sound of the human voice.
Backbowing - Bowing that creates a ragtime rhythm in which accents fall on unaccented beats.
Bight the Note - created by hitting the note fast, then sliding away and back to it.
Change - A change from one dance to another within a set of dances, e.g. "first", "second" or "third change', " grand change", and "ladies change", are alternate expressions for "grand chain", and "ladies chain", which are movements within a single dance.
Double Stop - Playing two strings at the same time.
Lilting - A series of "diddle-dee-dee's and dum's and trilling burrs which supply an oral accompaniment.
Modal - Based on one of the old musical scales before the major-minor system.
Old Tymey -Traditional folk music played by country bands popular in the 20's & 30's.
Pizzicato - Plucking strings with fingers.
Reefing the Bow - A hard long, digging down stroke on two or three strings with a sharp, heavy accent.
Reel - Dance tune in 2/4 or 4/4 time, usually faster than a jig.
Round Dance - A group circle dance like a "Paul Jones" or social dances for individual couples such as waltz, foxtrot or polka.
Sawing the Bow - Moving the bow back and forth in the long stokes very quickly with a stiff wrist.
Scottish Bowing - Played with the bow flat or tilted inward to produce a gritty, "rosiny" tone.
Shake of the Bow - An up stroke with a skaking wrist n which the bow hits the stings faster than the wrists shakes.
Snap the Wrist[/b ]- The opposite to the "Shake of the Bow", a sharp down stroke with a loose wrist producing a Scottish "snap" (a sixteenth note followed by a dotted eighth).
[b]Square Dance -A suite of jigs and reels for communal dancing in which couples form a square and follow the instructions of a caller.
[b]Staccato Bowing - Detached notes created usually by an up stroke in which the bow leaves the string as the wrist shakes.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/25/2012: 12:20:36
I'll continue to look, but I'd love to find the link to The Great Canadian Fiddle if anyone has it..
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/25/2012: 13:07:10
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Bob Wills was not a "Texas Style" fiddler.
--OTJ
Yeah, I'm sure there are a lot of errors in that. For example:
Staccato Bowing - Detached notes created usually by an up stroke in which the bow leaves the string as the wrist shakes.
Staccato is ON the string, not OFF, and has nothing to do with whether it's used on the up or down bow.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/25/2012: 14:07:36
OR:
Modal - Based on one of the old musical scales before the major-minor system.
Modes are really not musical scales; they're pitch collections, more accurately, I think. Our current major scale developed from the Ionian mode, the minor from the Aeolian. See:
Material of this sort (his, not mine) is fascinating, nevertheless, despite spelling errors, errors in sentence construction, using non-words like "alot" or (for example) the often failed distinguishing of "your" and "you're." ["your" is a possessive pronoun; "you're" is a conjunction and should be used when "you are" is meant] Precise use of language is important to scholars, but it's not important to everyone and there is no special reason it should be -- except that we are all judged by it. And aesthetically, it matters if you care about the beauty of the language. I do have problems with teachers who use bad spelling and grammar. This is no doubt a failing on my part.
OTJunky - Posted - 03/25/2012: 14:33:27
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
OR:
Modal - Based on one of the old musical scales before the major-minor system.
Modes are really not musical scales; they're pitch collections, more accurately, I think. Our current major scale developed from the Ionian mode, the minor from the Aeolian. See:
Material of this sort (his, not mine) is fascinating, nevertheless, despite spelling errors, errors in sentence construction, using non-words like "alot" or (for example) the often failed distinguishing of "your" and "you're." ["your" is a possessive pronoun; "you're" is a conjunction and should be used when "you are" is meant] Precise use of language is important to scholars, but it's not important to everyone and there is no special reason it should be -- except that we are all judged by it. And aesthetically, it matters if you care about the beauty of the language. I do have problems with teachers who use bad spelling and grammar. This is no doubt a failing on my part.
As far as I know the modern "major scale" is exactly the Greek Ionian mode and the modern "natural minor" scale is exactly the Greek Aeolian mode - though the modern harmonic and melodic minor scales are not found among the Greek modes.
It's hard to see why we'd say the Ionian and Aeolian modes are "musical scales" then say that the Mixolydian and Dorian modes are not musical scales - especially since the Irish in particular play a lot of music using those modes.
Is there some rule that qualifies a "pitch collection" to be a "musical scale" that's not widely known?
--OTJ
Edited by - OTJunky on 03/25/2012 14:34:42
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2012: 19:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
I don't think anybody's saying that fiddle music should be academic. That would defeat the whole purpose. Even so-called "art" music (symphonies, sonatas and the like) is not effective if it's academic. But people with analytical frames of mind (musicologists) have been analyzing folk and popular music forever; you're not going to stop that, and you shouldn't even want to.
What whole purpose would it defeat? Could you clarify?
I guess I never thought of the study of fiddling, including analytical, as being either a good or bad thing, and a certain amount is almost necessary.
GeeDubya - Posted - 03/26/2012: 06:58:53
Best laughs of the morning: The Great Canadian Fiddle.
Appalacian? Cape Briton? Old Tymey with county dancey rhythm? But the best is Jean-Luc Pony.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/26/2012: 07:05:58
>> Is there some rule that qualifies a "pitch collection" to be a "musical scale" that's not widely known?
I am not, as I mentioned, a musciologist, but it has to do with the context. Modes were used in the Catholic mass during the catholic synthesis. Modes are not scales, and vice versa. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
>> What whole purpose would it defeat? Could you clarify?
Well, I guess some people might characterize the whole purpose of art as self-expression and catharsis. This only works when it comes from some authentic, heart-felt place. It's not, in other words, an academic exercise. Analysis, is.
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 03/26/2012 07:09:17
Sue B. - Posted - 03/26/2012: 09:09:15
The Cajuns were kicked out of Nova Scotia, but they weren't called Cajuns till much more recently, and it wasn't "Cajun music" then. That took getting to LA and taking in a lot of other influences. Ties more to France and French of the 1700's than Canada/Maritimes.
mad baloney - Posted - 04/01/2012: 06:38:50
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
I don't think anybody's saying that fiddle music should be academic. That would defeat the whole purpose. Even so-called "art" music (symphonies, sonatas and the like) is not effective if it's academic. But people with analytical frames of mind (musicologists) have been analyzing folk and popular music forever; you're not going to stop that, and you shouldn't even want to.
What whole purpose would it defeat? Could you clarify?
I guess I never thought of the study of fiddling, including analytical, as being either a good or bad thing, and a certain amount is almost necessary.
I actually think about some of this stuff... not only to categorize things to merely to put them on a dusty shelf - but to have concise terms to describe certain musical devices without the fiddle in my hand to say, "You play it like this..."
Forum websites are a good example... I've seen flame wars arise over ornament names & their execution by people describing things in terms as muddy as "daaa blaat blaat" With a somewhat codified lexicon musical ideas can be tossed around with a lot less ambiguity & misinterpretation and "daaa blaat blaat" becomes a long roll.
Then there are multiple names for the same device - I've seen people use the word 'shakes' to describe what people call triplets or trebles. I've just never heard any respectable Irish fiddler (be it from Ireland or Japan or anywhere in between) ever use the term, 'bow shakes'. I now know what they mean but the lexicon doesn't need 3 or more terms for something as rudimentary as a triplet.
Then there are ornaments which seem to have different meanings in different styles, Mandogyrl keeps mentioning that two 16th notes followed by an 8th is a 'cut'. But all Irish & Scottish player that I know would call a cut a simple striking motion on the string to articulate consecutive notes of the same pitch, it was originally used on all bagpipes, flutes & fipple-flutes. As opposed to a pat, tap or strike which are again a pipe/flute name for articulating two consecutive notes of the same pitch but separated by a quick note from below on the fiddle it translates to a quick lifting/eplacing of the finger.
As far as two 16th followed by an eighth I would know it by a few names depending on how it's done; If the notes are seperated by changes in bow direction (detache) I & every player I regularly play with would call that a triplet, if it was articulate with a cut & a tap it would be a type of short roll (Condensed long roll according to Grey Larsen), if it were done with two cuts on pipes whistle or flute it would be a called a condensed long crann (again term coutesy of Grey Larsen) & a fiddler would most likely call it an open string short roll & would be rarer than a hen's tooth.
IdleHands - Posted - 04/02/2012: 09:19:34
I always think of cut as a "grace note" above the target note, essentially.
mad baloney - Posted - 04/02/2012: 09:45:22
grace notes have note value & can be heard, cuts are articulations & only stop the vibration of the string momentarily but no audible note is sounded.
IdleHands - Posted - 04/03/2012: 14:40:24
quote:
Originally posted by mad baloney
grace notes have note value & can be heard, cuts are articulations & only stop the vibration of the string momentarily but no audible note is sounded.
What is the note value of a grace note?
OTJunky - Posted - 04/03/2012: 15:24:46
quote:
Originally posted by mad baloney
99¢
Ok - that settles it for me.
I'm not playing any grace notes - can't afford it...
--OTJ
mad baloney - Posted - 04/03/2012: 15:26:49
seriously though, cuts in Irish music are called ghost notes in the western classical nomenclature. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_note Grace notes are used too but are a different beast, and the note is actually heard. As far as actual value, it's varies from tune & player - but I would say it like a double flagged snap (at most).
mudbug - Posted - 04/06/2012: 02:35:38
Grace notes I've seen written as a tiny note in size. I've seen them written as an eighth note before a quarter note. Not sure how they notate cuts since it doesn't have a melodic value, only a rhythmic one. Maybe they don't notate them, since everyone seems to add embellishments where they see fit.
fiddlejen - Posted - 05/23/2012: 20:30:39
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
Grace notes I've seen written as a tiny note in size. I've seen them written as an eighth note before a quarter note. Not sure how they notate cuts since it doesn't have a melodic value, only a rhythmic one. Maybe they don't notate them, since everyone seems to add embellishments where they see fit.
I've often seen cuts written as tiny little notes that look like grace notes. Funny, I can play cuts just fine, and I can sight-read tunes just fine, but I can't handle the written-in cuts -- and now I know why! It's because they look like grace notes, but my fingers & ears know that's not what belongs there...
Eric Sprado - Posted - 06/08/2012: 20:36:24
Thanks Woodwiz for the reference to the YouTube of Vassar Clements showing his unbelievable thriftiness of bowing. He could get more music out of one bow stroke than anybody I've ever seen!! I've watched it a zillion times but pretty hard to imitate. My version of Milk Cow on my homepage is SO much the opposite of what I wanted it to be. Vassar was on my mind but Eric still was in my soul.... and still playing choppy. Yup-ol Eric back from the depths again.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/08/2012: 23:21:57
I probably should have made these suggestions sooner- sorry!
The Great Canadian Fiddle
Canadians take their fiddling quite seriously, as do the fiddlers in many countries with long winters. They have some commonalities with US styles, but there are slight differences in terminology, plus if they aren't really familiar with some part of the US fiddling tradition, they COULD mispell it or use their own spelling. So I'm going to make some corrections.
Also, the Swedish fiddling terms MOSTLY special characters, and these should be used correctly whenever possible. The easiest way is to switch to a different keyboard layout, and I just recently enabled a Swedish keyboard in my Linux Mint desktop.
FIDDLE DEFINITIONS
Appalacian - Appalachian- gotta have the "h" in there. One thing to remember is that since mountain areas are nearly always more oriented towards conserving traditional practices in music (but in other things as well) many things that are true of Appalachian or Ozark Old Time WERE true of Old Time in other parts of the South or even in parts of the Midwest 100 or more years ago. This is analogous to the Highland areas in Scotland, or the Alps in Europe, or Dalarna in Sweden.
Blue Grass - A musical style that originated with Bill Monroe in the late 1930's with increased improvisation and flashiness. This style is primarily meant for a listening audience only. (Probably should include a mention that the base instrumentation is the same as in Old Time string band music -fiddle, banjo, and guitar- while mandolin, harmonica and bass are optional in Old Time, mandolin and bass are mandatory in Bluegrass, and harmonica and Dobro slide guitar are optional in Bluegrass.)
Cape Briton - Cape Breton- Briton and Breton are related words, but not at all the same- "Briton" is a noun and means "an inhabitant of Britain" ("Great" or otherwise) "Breton" is French, and is either a noun meaning "an inhabitant of Brittany" or an adjective meaning "pertaining to Brittany". It's terrible for a single vowel to signify such a huge difference in meaning, but it does!
Celtic - when used in a musical context it's a rather loose category or "umbrella term" used to describe:
1. Music of various Celtic peoples that don't currently have national status. Because Ireland has achieved nationhood (at considerable cost) Irish musicians tend to want their music referred to as "Irish Trad". But, not having national status, many of the other Celtic peoples are aware that they don't register on most peoples "radar" (To most Americans, "Manx" is associated exclusively with a tailless cat, and Cornish is associated exclusively with game hens! Most Americans would be hard put to properly identify European COUNTRIES, let alone minority regions in those countries!), and are fairly tolerant of the term since it gives them more visibility than they would otherwise have- this includes the Bretons, Cornish, and Welsh (all from the Brythonic branch of the Celtic peoples) and the Manx, the Shetland, and Scottish traditional musics (all from the Gaelic branch of the Celtic peoples). Because the most visible of these groups musically is Scottish traditional music, it is somewhat understandable if Scottish music were equated with Celtic Music, since some well known Scottish fiddlers (like Alasdair Fraser) are using the term to describe their music, but it's only one of the ethnic music genres that could be called Celtic. Also, Cape Breton fiddling is hard to categorize- it is very close to Scottish fiddling and in some ways may be a survival of earlier Scottish fiddling styles, but the name hearkens back to Brittany- but that's only because French settlers ONCE lived there, but the British resettled them in Louisiana along with the other Acadiens. Because Cape Breton is part of Canada, not Scotland, it seems inappropriate to call it "Scottish" fiddling although the resemblance is VERY strong... so Cape Breton fiddlers are usually quite happy to use the term "Celtic".
2. When people from other countries play music from various Celtic ethnic traditions, they hear enough resemblances that they tend to be attracted to more than one of them, and they also tend to confuse the styles, and end up with a hybrid sound. It's convenient to call these hybrids "Celtic" as well, since the source musics for the hybrid are all ethnic Celtic traditional genres. Also, when Irish musicians like the Chieftains get experimental enough, their music can no longer truthfully be called "Irish Trad", and at that point, they are often quite willing to call it "Celtic" because it's less restrictive- it allows them more artistic freedom.
3. Some claim "Celtic" is just a marketing term- while I think it's much more than that, nevertheless, it IS convenient, especially in the US to put all these under one heading, i.e. "Celtic"- whether in CD bins in brick and mortar stores, or online classifications for mp3's or CD's.
4. When English musicians play Irish trad, and such is the charm of the music that many do, and get good enough to be able to sell their music, what are they going to call it? Calling it "Irish Trad" might offend the national sensibilities of some Irishmen, even if it sounds quite Irish, so "Celtic" is a MUCH safer term. And likewise, when Americans play either Irish Trad or Scottish Traditional music, even if they sound ever so authentic, calling it Irish or Scottish fiddling tends to imply that the MUSICIAN is also Irish or Scottish. Calling it "Celtic" sidesteps that implication.
For instance, Fairport Convention was an English music group that at the time might have been classified as "folk-rock". They SANG mostly English ballads, but the fiddling was often Irish tunes. Bands that imitate them consciously or unconsciously are much more likely to get called "Celtic" nowadays.
Ganglat -Gånglåt ) pronounced GOHNGLOHT- A Swedish walking tune.
Old Tymey - is a term often used to refer to Ottawa Valley or Ontario fiddling. There is some resemblance to American Old Time (in the bowing rhythms and use of drone strings) , but more Scottish tunes are used, the tone is more polished, and the piano is the normal backup instrument.
Old Time or (less often, more informally and somewhat affectionately) "Old Timey" usually refers to American Old Time. Old Time Music also includes Old Time Banjo and Old Time Ballad singing, and really also hymn singing in the same vocal style... also autoharp and dulcimer music (Jean Ritchie). Old Time Fiddling is only PART of it. Guitar and/or banjo are the normal backup instruments in American Old Time, guitar being more widespread than banjo. When the term "Old Time" is used in the context of Old Time Fiddle Associations or Old Time Fiddle Contests, the style is usually somewhat more modern and progressive.
Roundpeak properly two words ¨Round Peak¨... and Tommy Jarrell´s last name has two ¨r¨s and two ¨l´s.
Scandanavian - Should be ¨Scandinavian¨. Scandinavian is a grab bag term like ¨Celtic¨ except it's somewhat more focused on the region rather than the ethnicity. It could include Finnish, Norwegian, Swedish, or Faeroe Islands fiddling. Danish traditional fiddling seems to be extinct, but it is also technically ¨Scandinavian¨. The Finns are MOSTLY ethnically distinct from the other Scandinavian peoples, but their fiddling is quite similar in sound, and there is also a substantial ethnic Swedish minority in Finland.
Skanklat - Skänklåt pronounced SHENKLOHT
Southern - I've seen the term Southeastern more often. It really refers to Southern Old Time styles that exist or existed outside of the Ozarks and Appalachians. - Cajun is usually thought of as a distinct style. No significant Spanish influence until you get to the SouthWEST which is something else alltogether. In the "Deep South" the base style probably started as English traditional fiddling, but there is a significant Afro American contribution via Ragtime and various Afro-American fiddlers- one survey recorded that the #1 instrument played among African-Americans before 1860 was the FIDDLE, and the banjo was a distant second, played only half as much. Also, there was an indirect African American contribution through minstrel music. In Virginia, Scottish fiddling was VERY popular- one early collection of "Virginia Reels" has American titles, but the tune melodies are VERY Scottish sounding. The Scottish influence seems to extend into the Appalachians- for example, "Molly Hare" is really a version of the Scottish "Fairy Dance" and Leather Breeches is really a derivation of "Lord McDonald's Reel".
Texas style[/b ] or Texas fiddling is really just the Texas version of Old Time fiddling, which tends to be more polished than most other American Old Time styles . Bob Wills developed a style of fiddling ORIGINATING in Texas which is properly called ¨Western Swing¨. Joe Venuti and Jean Luc Ponty may have had some influence, but Texas Swing is a genre of it´s own... it definitely has ¨Swing¨ rhythms, backup and phrasing, but the melodically it´s not nearly as modern as Venuti or Ponti, not nearly as jazzy. To confuse matters, the Quebe Sisters Band does BOTH Texas fiddling (when they do fiddle tunes) and Western Swing fiddling (When they do Bob Wills or Andrews Sisters tunes)
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 06/09/2012: 04:22:44
This is great information: where did you get it? Did you write it?
GeeDubya - Posted - 06/09/2012: 04:56:06
I wont enter the whole fray here about the term Celtic, but its use in identifying regional music is quite recent, and is, for the most part, a catch-all marketing term - often used by musicians themselves. The Celts, as a large & complex group of loosely related pre-Christian tribes, left behind their languages and some now-integrated cultural practices, but whatever existed of their music is unknowable today. The jigs, reels, strathspeys, etc. we associate with Irish/Scottish dance music are descended from 17th & 18th c. European roots, and have little or nothing to do with Celts, beyond a convenient and frequently misused nomenclature.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 06/09/2012: 05:42:16
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
I wont enter the whole fray here about the term Celtic, but its use in identifying regional music is quite recent, and is, for the most part, a catch-all marketing term - often used by musicians themselves. The Celts, as a large & complex group of loosely related pre-Christian tribes, left behind their languages and some now-integrated cultural practices, but whatever existed of their music is unknowable today. The jigs, reels, strathspeys, etc. we associate with Irish/Scottish dance music are descended from 17th & 18th c. European roots, and have little or nothing to do with Celts, beyond a convenient and frequently misused nomenclature.
That's useful information and important to know. Modern marketing usages are also useful to profession teachers and players. This is not the first time in history that some factual set of historical data has been adopted to serve the purposes of income production, right? Poetic license?
boxbow - Posted - 06/09/2012: 07:29:31
Good job, pogo! Well written, too. Will you be expanding on this ?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/09/2012: 11:54:03
quote:
Originally posted by boxbow
Good job, pogo! Well written, too. Will you be expanding on this ?
WHAT????
You want it LONGER????
I probably should explain something about how I'm wired. I showed 99th percentile Verbal Reasoning, 99th percentile spelling and 97th percentile History Reading on the PSAT. With that, I probably should be writing history books!!!
(and 15th percentile math ability and 20th percentile clerical speed and accuracy!)
BUT... there is this motivation problem... I'm interested in a lot of different things, and it's rare for ANYTHING to hold my interest or attention for more than an hour.... and writing a book requires a WHOLE lot more than that.
(I do however tend to focus intensely during that hour or so.)
I'm good for about one lengthy post or blog article, and then my mind is SOMEWHERE ELSE.
So...
"What you see is what you get!"
fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/09/2012: 12:04:57
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
This is great information: where did you get it? Did you write it?
I'm married to a Swede and speak some Swedish, and through that I got more aware of Scandinavia.
The Celtic part is mostly observations about how the term is used. Having studied languages, I'm very aware of how "messy" some terms can get- one word can mean a LOT of different things.
And it's hard to get a "messier" term than "Celtic"!!!! That's one of the reasons why it results in such... um... INTERESTING threads!
And I read quite a bit of stuff about fiddling on line (including some Canadian sites, which is where I noticed that they like the "Old Tyme" spelling) and tend to remember it pretty well.
And I was in one 100% Old Time String Band, and another band that was 50% Old Time and 50% Irish Trad (or as close as we could get- I played backup guitar on the Irish tunes- this was before DADGAD was popular).
And I've seen quite a few good Bluegrass bands in concert, and been to quite a few Bluegrass jams in recent years.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 06/09/2012: 13:16:34
In other words, you wrote it? In which case I can post is on the fiddle page, with your attribution and a link back to your homepage??
boxbow - Posted - 06/09/2012: 18:57:20
Just get a good editor, pogo. I well remember the first time I said ganglat in the hearing of someone who knew the correct pronunciation. I thought he showed admirable restraint. So what's a skanklot? A term for my first run-through of a ganglat?
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