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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/26293
notlwonk - Posted - 02/05/2012: 18:47:03
If I have a key of G tune and it starts on an open D, what would the key be if I started on open A, also on open G? The tune in question and would apply to others, is "Will the circle be Unbroken" I can start it on G. D or A, I just don't know what to call the key. Can this be determined by the circle of fifths?
DougD - Posted - 02/05/2012: 19:03:32
Starting on open A would be in D, open G would be C. The song starts on the fifth degree of the scale, which is D in the key of G. A is the fifth of the key of D, and G is the fifth in C.
Another way to look at it would be that the tonic note of the key is a fourth above the starting note.
You can also look at the relationship between the old starting note and the new one, and apply the same relationship to the key signature. D to A is a fifth, so the new key is a fifth up from the old one, G to D. D to G is a fourth, so the new key, C, is up a fourth from the old one, G.
Just different ways of looking at the same relationships.
Edited by - DougD on 02/05/2012 19:08:35
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 02/06/2012: 11:29:38
One way of thinking of it, if your piece is in G and it starts with an open D, then that is a dominant-tonic relationship. Every piece is associated with a scale. And every step of the scale has a specific name and a specific function.
I Tonic
ii supertonic
iii mediant
IV Subdominant
V Dominant
vi submediant
vii° leading tone
Triads (3 note chords) built on I, IV and V are major ("happy") and those built on ii, ii and vi are minor. The dominant (V) triad with an additional third added at the top is called a Dominent 7th chord ( V7 ), and the top three notes of that chord are the vii° , which by itself is a diminished chord.
Every major scale has half steps between 3-4 and 7-8. So you fit that frame on every key, and no matter what key you're in, the V-I relationship is the same; an upbeat on the dominant note, leading to the tonic is very, very common. (The V-I cadence, which is a chord formula, is the usual ending for nearly all pieces).
See:
Chord Structures & Cadential Formulas
and
Violin/Viola, Piano: 3 octave fingerings
Makeup of Major and Minor Scales | Identifying Key Signatures
Method for Memorizing Fingerings - Violin | Piano
Scale books - Violin & Viola | Piano
richdissmore - Posted - 02/06/2012: 13:38:14
beats me i just try to play i get mixed up very easy music jargon i don,t know ever thing just a few simpel tunes is all i can play how ever thank you i,ll try to pick up on what your trying to teach us my memorey is for stunken i have been trying to read music i just seem not to beable to geting my fingers to work with the music i can do it with fiddle TAB --G-o-1-a-2-b-3-c-4-d sample of fiddle D-o-1e-2-f --3-g-4-a-,-| A-o-1-b-2-c-3-d-4-e --|E-o-1-f-2-g-3-a-4--b open string is 0 then a letter for each finger no. 1-2-3-4- plus high finger or low finger as marked-
DougD - Posted - 02/06/2012: 14:03:24
scusigurl2011 - So after all that, can you answer the original posters question? "what would the key be if I started on open A, also on open G?" That might be helpful.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 02/06/2012: 14:17:20
I did answer the question, but they'd have to apply the rule. Any dominant pickup note would lead to the tonic, thus:
A ---> D major (2 #s)
G --> C major (nothing in the key signature)
F --> B flat Major (2 flats)
E --> A Major (3 #s)
D --> G Major (1 #)
C --> F Major (1 flat)
B --> E Major (4 #s)
You could apply the same dominant/tonic principle to the flat keys or the sharp keys, same result.
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 02/06/2012 14:25:13
DougD - Posted - 02/06/2012: 14:50:30
Thank you. I might mention that's its common practice to refer to the notes or degrees of a scale with Arabic numerals - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. The Roman numerals are used for the chords that might be built on those notes.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 02/06/2012: 15:02:04
Right; 1-8 are "scale step numbers." But I was talking in terms of the chord structures (triads), if you'll look, right after that.
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 02/06/2012 15:02:41
DougD - Posted - 02/06/2012: 15:12:13
I think what you said was "Every piece is associated with a scale. And every step of the scale has a specific name and a specific function." and then went on to list them, with Roman numerals.
Its a small point, but important, because discussions can can confusing if the two are mixed up. You did change to the standard terminology later in your post.
Edited by - DougD on 02/06/2012 15:18:11
notlwonk - Posted - 02/06/2012: 16:07:23
Thanks for the replies.
DougD: I made a 'graph' as a help tool for me: A B C D E F G A B C D E F. That works and is simple.
Rich: I'm with you, I just want to play. But folks at jams are always asking "what key?"
scusigurl: My comprehension of music theory is really low. I do appreciate your response.
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 02/06/2012: 16:10:36
You're right; I crushed it all together. I could have been *really* obnoxious and started talking about intervals. The part I've never been able to explain is why, if you invert an interval and then add the inversion and the original interval together, you get 9. Maybe you know? For example:
a 3rd, inverted, becomes a 6th: 6 + 3 = 9
a 4th, inverted, becomes a 5th: 4 + 5 = 9
But it's related to the issue at hand: if you're in C Major, C is the tonic (or "keynote") and G is the dominant. You see this relationship frequently: in pickup notes to a piece, and in the V (or V7)-I cadence at the end. In C Major, G is five notes above, or four notes, below the tonic C. 4 + 5 = 9
scusigurl2011 - Posted - 02/06/2012: 16:18:24
@notlwonk
>> My comprehension of music theory is really low.
I used to think that, too. What happened to me is that I kept getting better and better orchestra jobs, thoughout my career, and each time the concertmaster of the orchestra was associated with a university and I got full scholarships to attend those universities. ("Orchestra scholarships" are akin to football scholarships; they have to have so many players to fill the chairs.)
As a result, I ended up what was always a "boys' subject" - i.e., theory, ended up taking that over and over again. I finally got it. And it's not a boys' subject - but boys at that time were louder and more assertive than girls (even ME), and were thought to be better at math (and music theory). Girls were not thought to be able to do math (and music theory). Young women have no idea what I'm talking about, as a rule.
If you think you can't do it -- or worse, if someone tells you you can't do it (like one's mother, par example) -- then you probably won't be able to.
Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 02/06/2012 16:22:24
notlwonk - Posted - 02/06/2012: 16:44:29
quote:
Originally posted by scusigurl2011
@notlwonk
>> My comprehension of music theory is really low.
I used to think that, too. What happened to me is that I kept getting better and better orchestra jobs, thoughout my career, and each time the concertmaster of the orchestra was associated with a university and I got full scholarships to attend those universities. ("Orchestra scholarships" are akin to football scholarships; they have to have so many players to fill the chairs.)
As a result, I ended up what was always a "boys' subject" - i.e., theory, ended up taking that over and over again. I finally got it. And it's not a boys' subject - but boys at that time were louder and more assertive than girls (even ME), and were thought to be better at math (and music theory). Girls were not thought to be able to do math (and music theory). Young women have no idea what I'm talking about, as a rule.
If you think you can't do it -- or worse, if someone tells you you can't do it (like one's mother, par example) -- then you probably won't be able to.
Actually it is low, didn't even have to duck with your answer coming at me I know what what I like and am willing to leave the theory to others. The technical stuff, and not only in music, just isn't there for me. Too much info and the brain gets muddled. These little dabs of info are all I need...for now anyway.
DougD - Posted - 02/06/2012: 16:50:41
scusigurl2011 - If you mean why don't the inverted intervals add up to 8 (an octave) instead of 9, I think I can answer that.
As you probably know, intervals are reckoned in an upwards direction, including the first and last notes. So, in C, a third is C-D-E. The first inversion, which is a sixth, is E-F-G-A-B-C. As you can see, the E is being counted twice, both as the top of the first interval, and the starting point of the second. If you eliminate one, they add up to eight. Does that make sense?
DougD - Posted - 02/06/2012: 17:23:57
notlwonk - Your "graph" looks a lot like a piano keyboard, which is what I use to figure out things like this. I've always thought a keyboard, even a cheap $10 one, is a good tool for anybody trying to study theory.
You asked if the circle of fifths could be used to determine this, and I finally took time to look, and yes, it could. G, your original key, is one to the left of D, the starting note, on the circle of fifths. All the other combinations will be in the same relationship. D, the new key, will be one to the left if the starting note is A, and C will be one to the left of a starting note of G. As I said, its just different ways of looking at the same relationships, and its just a graphic way of saying what scusigurl2011 meant when she said "Any dominant pickup note would lead to the tonic." That's the way the circle of fifths is set up.
Diane G - Posted - 02/06/2012: 20:22:26
Wow...this is a great thread. Thanks Connie and Doug. This information helps to clear up some things I was wondering about.
Have a great day and stay tuned.
Diane
alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/07/2012: 00:47:01
quote:
Originally posted by notlwonk
Thanks for the replies.
DougD: I made a 'graph' as a help tool for me: A B C D E F G A B C D E F. That works and is simple.
Rich: I'm with you, I just want to play. But folks at jams are always asking "what key?"
scusigurl: My comprehension of music theory is really low. I do appreciate your response.
The easy solution, without needing to delve much into music theory at all - just do simple counting.
Since you already know that tune which happens to start on the D note is in the key of G; the same tune starting on an A note is 7 half steps (can think of it like frets) higher D/Eb/E/F/F#/G/G#/A - so the "key" is 7 half steps higher G/Ab/A/Bb/B/C/C#/D so the key = D.
Of course this (transposing by counting) only works if you happen to already know a starting note and key for a given tune. An easy general guideline is however that tunes often start with either
A. the root note or first note of the scale (same note name as key name)
B. the fifth note of the scale (as in your example) or 7 half steps (frets) higher or 5 half steps lower
C. the third note of the scale or 4 half steps higher than the root for major; 3 half steps for minor.
When they ask "what key?" - you've narrowed it down to three likely possibilities based on the start note.
As well another (and possibly better) way to guide you to "what key?" has to do with the end, as many tunes end with a sense of resolve by ending on the root note, same note as the key. This is probably more percentage than the start note. Realize not all tunes will this work, as the tune doesn't always end on it's root, but a high percentage do.
Of course it's what notes happen after the first note, and before the last, that define the key and modality (but you'll find it involves a significant amount of those three notes) -
These are just simple ways (without much theory) to answer "what key?" with a simple and humble "I think it's in the key of x" - in context of the situation asked, if you're wrong it's probably not a big deal.
mudbug - Posted - 02/07/2012: 02:20:59
Great answers all. Theory comes slowly to me, and like Connie says, you gotta keep doing it over and over till it sinks in, especially when math is not one's strong point. Here's a simple way that I do it: You have two knowns, the relationship that you're starting with, and the relationship you're moving to has one unknown. You could look at it as D is to G as A is to X. Start counting on your finger on the known relationship with D as your first finger, E is your secong finger, F is your third finger and G is your fourth finger. Now go to the unknown with A as your first finger, B is your second finger, C is your third finger and D is your fourth finger. Sure sometimes those sharps and flats will throw off the final answer, but you'll know it when you play it, and this bonehead (meaning me, not necessarily you) method will work most of the time.
Peghead - Posted - 02/07/2012: 05:24:42
D is the 5th note in the key of G - A is the 5th note in the key of D - E is the 5th note in the key of A - G is the 5th note in the key of C Etc. Keep in mind though, a melody can start anywhere. Because this melody starts on the 5 (in this case) you got lucky, the 5ths are adjacent on the circle. The better way is to find the relationship of the starting note to the key and then transfer that relationship in a parallel way. It's called transposing.
Edited by - Peghead on 02/07/2012 05:33:32
notlwonk - Posted - 02/07/2012: 07:24:22
I've heard the term 'fifths' before just didn't how it would apply in this situation. The counting on fingers or using a key board are good ways to do it. For me it's what note a tune starts on and from there it's a pattern of fingering and strings. Of course when trying to play along with a tune that's keyed for singing changes the pattern.
Alaskafiddler: That's interesting about the start note.
DougD - Posted - 02/07/2012: 08:53:42
notlwonk - BTW, there are several "virtual" piano keyboards available online. Here's one I have on both my computers. Its very handy for figuring out things like this, and I believe you can also use it to enter notes in notation programs: vmpk.sourceforge.net/
mudbug - Posted - 02/07/2012: 11:58:46
P.S. You can also use the "finger method" except counting 1/2 steps, but it takes more fingers.
notlwonk - Posted - 02/07/2012: 19:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
P.S. You can also use the "finger method" except counting 1/2 steps, but it takes more fingers.
Use your toes as the half steps. (You'll probably get some really strange looks from fellow jammers, but, hey, at least you'll know what to tell them for the key.)
SamY - Posted - 02/07/2012: 20:14:29
This might help for the next song you need the key for, IF you can sing or hum on key (I assume any musician can). Here's what I do. Suppose I think of a song that I know the melody and I want to "pick it out" by ear on the fiddle. I don't know what key I necessarily want to work it up in, so I pick a key, say G. Then I play a double stop G chord and hum to get that key in my head, just as if a guitar player strummed a G chord. Then I start to sing the song, "I was standing by my window...." Okay, now the first note I sang, the word "I" , sing it again and hold it, then hunt for that note on the fiddle, which with this song (Will the circle be unbroken) will lead you to a D note. So in the key of G you start on a D.
Now for the case of the original question. You're already playing the song starting with open D and want to know the key. Just take a guess to start with, say you try D. Play a double stop D chord, hum to get that chord in your head, then start to sing as above. You will find that the first note is A, so you guessed wrong. Okay pick another key and try again until you find the one that starts on the D note. For most fiddlers your key choices are usually boiled down to A, C, D, or G, occasionally E or F, so there's not too many to try.
Soon you will learn to zero in more quickly. For example, for the song at hand, suppose you guess key of A. Play the double stop, hum, sing... you will sing an E as the first note. One step down from E is D, the note you have been starting on. Therefore, one step down from A (the key you guessed) is G, the key you have been playing the song in.
Do this for a few songs and I bet you will learn to determine the key rather quickly.
p1cklef1sh - Posted - 02/07/2012: 21:09:30
Its amazing to me how complicated music is when you go around trying to learn more than just songs. Makes my head hurt. Great info on something I never understood though. Its like looking at a complicated gizmo and thinking...thats neat. but having no knowledge of how it works. ha ha!
bluesviolin - Posted - 02/08/2012: 09:53:55
many years ago I got me a mandolin chord dictionary with a finger board note chart on the back for 12 "frets". Yup, it's about 4 1/4" wide x 11" high called an *Alfred Handy Guide*. I've used it a lot for transposing over the years and I still use it. Just count the semi-tones up or down from where the note is to where you want it to be. or if the target note is across a string and up or down a coupla semi-tones or whatever.
Not using it so much these days, mostly if I have a scale that's a bit out of the ordinary. I find it a very quick and easy way to transpose. would be easy enough to draw out a chart for that matter.
it's a good little book tho, it's got ALL the chords plus movable cords and a separate section for the 3 principal chords with their relative minors and alternates.
Edited by - bluesviolin on 02/08/2012 09:57:25
bluesviolin - Posted - 02/08/2012: 10:03:25
quote:
Originally posted by bluesviolin
many years ago I got me a mandolin chord dictionary with a finger board note chart on the back for 12 "frets". Yup, it's about 4 1/4" wide x 11" high called an *Alfred Handy Guide*. I've used it a lot for transposing over the years and I still use it. Just count the semi-tones up or down from where the note is to where you want it to be. or if the target note is across a string and up or down a coupla semi-tones or whatever.
Not using it so much these days, mostly if I have a scale that's a bit out of the ordinary. I find it a very quick and easy way to transpose. would be easy enough to draw out a chart for that matter.
it's a good little book tho, it's got ALL the chords over 4 strings plus movable cords and a separate section for the 3 principal chords with their relative minors and alternates.