bluesviolin - Posted - 01/27/2012:  10:56:23

Lydian was the only mode I didn't have a grasp on... until I recently got into youtube guitar teachers/players. I knew the Lydian scale (in C would be: C D E F# G A B C) but I could never really "hear" it until I started to listen to it played over the appropriate Major Chord family. It is an absolutely wonderful mode! Some describe it as a mystical ethereal sound but with the positive energy of the major key.

I discovered that guys like Joe Satriani work in Lydian quite a bit and there are quite a few pretty incredible Lydian guitar solos on youtube.

also sounds pretty cool on violin with the appropriate chord progression.

no matter what genre you're into, it's always a great feeling when a door opens and you turn the light on in the next room.

Learner - Posted - 01/27/2012:  14:19:36

Another one of the beauties of the diatonic scale system! :-)

Sue B. - Posted - 01/27/2012:  15:16:21

It's handy to think of the various modes in terms of what comes out if you only play the white keys on the piano. This one is F to F, I believe. Can you name a couple tunes to look for?

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 01/27/2012:  15:48:13

Leonard Bernstein uses it a lot in West Side Story. The Overture, Maria, Something's Comin' and Cool all rely on it.  The mode has a jazzy, yearning quality that's just intoxicating.  I use it all the time on guitar solos.

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/27/2012:  16:06:48

Sorry Sue, can't name any tunes.  well... other than the theme from the Simpsons TV show, which is hardly mystical or ethereal 

I'm just in the process of deciding which Lydian back tracks I want to buy off the net, and they range from slow and pretty to wild & free with that positive energy from the Major.

I believe that dorian and mixolydian are used fairly commonly for fiddle tunes, but can't say how Lydian might apply to that. But I see by your Bio that you have a wide musical scope...

Maybe it's just infatuation, but I'm in love with this mode right now. even wrote a haiku about it to post in another forum on the haiku thread. Here it is just for fun.

I have found you now

hiding there in the raised fourth

Come Lydian: Dance

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/27/2012:  16:16:22

Ok, now I'm gonna hafta go out and rent West Side Story! ... which I did about a year ago but wasn't thinking Lydian back then. This is so cool! I could hear Lydian right when I was reading that list of tunes.

Thank You very much for that info Lonesome Fiddler, I appreciate it very much...made my Day. 

PS. I also like your description very much... "intoxicating"

Edited by - bluesviolin on 01/27/2012 16:23:06

Shawn Craver - Posted - 01/27/2012:  23:20:38

I love this mode as well and it shows up in most older traditional fiddle styles. The Hardanger tradition, old fiddlers from SW Pennsylvania down into Kentucky. Once the ear gets out of standard scales as taught by classical western music, it becomes very evident as a person listens to older fiddlers. Samuel P. Bayard the great ethnomusicologist identified the sharpened fourth as being very characteristic of fiddlers who came out of an older tradition.

Shawn Craver - Posted - 01/27/2012:  23:25:56

One quick example is Rebel Raid. As he comes down of the high notes descending to the G, he clearly plays a c#. It's not poor intonation because he clearly hits a nice solid C natural on the low part of the tune. (I used the key of G as an example, but I think the fiddle is tuned in "standard" intervals-- just tuned lower. myspace.com/music/player?sid=1...78&ac=now

Bayard's "Dance to the Fiddle March to the Fife" collection is full of examples with many tunes moving in and out of lydian .

Sue B. - Posted - 01/28/2012:  05:17:12

Yep, lots of background ;) I number of Cajun tunes are mixolydian. We just love playing those "shocking" F chords in key of G tunes.

Shawn Craver - Posted - 01/28/2012:  07:16:56

Not sure we are talking about the same thing Sue. Your example of an F natural in G would indicate a flatted seventh, where in the Lydian the "effect" is created by a sharpened fourth.

fidnaz - Posted - 01/28/2012:  07:27:13

I don't think I have a grasp on any of the modes, really; I have moved regular ionian tunes to other modes, but had to do it by writing out the scale degrees of the melody and then transferring those to the target mode or scale. It works, but it's a tedious way to do it. Just starting out and playing to a different tonal center by ear doesn't come naturally to me at all. If theres a trick to thinking about it while playing by ear, I'd like to get some help with that.

daveh - Posted - 01/28/2012:  10:14:31

I think the F# would indicate C mixolidyan .
Dave

daveh - Posted - 01/28/2012:  10:49:27

Sorry, That is Lydian. My bad. Need coffee

DougD - Posted - 01/28/2012:  11:06:00

I don't know about his other book, but in Hill Country Tunes, Bayard doesn't exactly say that some tunes are in Lydian mode.

Instead he says "The majority of the fiddle tunes are in a major mode, although a fair number of them appear cast in dorian or mixolydian, or have about them something of  minor tonality. But the major scales of the fiddlers are not those of art music, for they admit alternating pitch at some places. We have no space to discuss folk scales adequately; but it is certain that the fiddlers quite often play a high C, a high G, and a low F-Sharp; that they habitually raise the fourth and lower the seventh notes of their major-scale tunes; that they note instantly a divergence toward the fixed-tone scale (so that faulty ear and fingering cannot be blamed for the intervals they play); and that they disapprove of the conventional fingering, because, as they say, it is out of tune and spoils the music."

In a footnote he makes a reference to Cecil Sharp, who had some interesting thoughts about the modes in the songs he collected in the American South, and to Irish fiddlers doing similar things.

fidnaz - What you are describing sounds more like what guitar thrashers try to do. Normally in traditional fiddling you just learn the tune, and whatever mode it might be in just comes through - you don't try to change it around.

Edited by - DougD on 01/28/2012 11:21:55

Shawn Craver - Posted - 01/28/2012:  11:59:25

Doug said: " I don't know about his other book, but in Hill Country Tunes, Bayard doesn't exactly say that some tunes are in Lydian mode."

I said: "Bayard's "Dance to the Fiddle March to the Fife" collection is full of examples with many tunes moving in and out of lydian ."

Bayard refers to this mode changing as "shading" If I remember correctly. The sharpened fourth would be a "shade" of lydian, and many of the tunes in his collections have this trait.

Shawn Craver - Posted - 01/28/2012:  12:28:56

Another tune that comes to mind that is strong with the lydian mode is Burl Hammons "Wild Man of the Forest" or something like that. It is one of the many variants of the old Irish tune "Black Bird." Sends chills up my spine!

Edited by - Shawn Craver on 01/28/2012 12:29:42

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/28/2012:  12:59:15

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

fidnaz - What you are describing sounds more like what guitar thrashers try to do. Normally in traditional fiddling you just learn the tune, and whatever mode it might be in just comes through - you don't try to change it around.

---

I agree with this statement. Seems to me as previously mentioned a coupla times, most fiddling would be in dorian or mixolydian, but it's very interesting to learn that a certain amount is done in Lydian. hmmm, now I'm wondering if there's any Phyrgian Fiddling. 

But it would also seem to me that modes may not be that relevant for fiddling. As Doug D. says... the tune is the tune whatever mode, no need to change it around. Otherwise it's just transposing the key if I understand fidnaz correctly.

But I'm much closer to one of them there guitar thrashers than I am a fiddler, and for fusion improv, I think knowing the modes is indispensable.

fidnaz - Posted - 01/28/2012:  17:52:12

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesviolin

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

fidnaz - What you are describing sounds more like what guitar thrashers try to do. Normally in traditional fiddling you just learn the tune, and whatever mode it might be in just comes through - you don't try to change it around.

---

I agree with this statement. Seems to me as previously mentioned a coupla times, most fiddling would be in dorian or mixolydian, but it's very interesting to learn that a certain amount is done in Lydian. hmmm, now I'm wondering if there's any Phyrgian Fiddling. 

But it would also seem to me that modes may not be that relevant for fiddling. As Doug D. says... the tune is the tune whatever mode, no need to change it around. Otherwise it's just transposing the key if I understand fidnaz correctly.

But I'm much closer to one of them there guitar thrashers than I am a fiddler, and for fusion improv, I think knowing the modes is indispensable.

 

 

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Yeah, I'm just thrashing about for fun. To see what Old Joe Clark or Buffalo Gals would sound like in another mode, not just transposing to another major key. I didn't expect to discover anything useful, just exploring my ignorance.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 01/28/2012:  17:59:36

Playing modally is difficult on the violin, but it is easy on the guitar, and even easier on the piano.  On the guitar or piano, you just let the frets or keys be your guide.  Try a C scale on the piano, just hitting the white keys, beginning with the C.  Then do an all white key scale, only start on the D.  Etc.  You'll be doing  the modes.  On the fiddle you actually have to know the pitch you're aiming at.

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/28/2012:  19:49:04

Lonesome Fiddler: my ears perked up when you said you did a lot of your guitar solo's in Lydian. I play some fairly decent lead guitar myself, started on guitar around 10 but didn't start the violin until 22... figured I could teach myself cuz I knew guitar, which was a mistake! Can't speak for piano, but I find modes on violin easier than guitar. maybe it's because there's only 4 strings tuned in fifths to deal with as opposed to 6 with that G string to throw everything out.

... so if you know all your 11 major scales (forget Db haha) then you've got all the modes in every key.

or to put it another way, if I'm playing in C Lydian, I'm not so much thinking of it as a C scale with a raised fourth, but rather I'm playing a G major scale.

or for C dorian, I'm thinking Bb major scale.

and if your muscle memory is set for all these major scales, hitting pitch is less of a problem. 

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 01/29/2012:  12:16:52

bluesviolin -- you've got better ears than I do.  And if you're looking for a West Side Story, get the Original Broadway Cast album..  I have a feeling that Leonard Bernstein himself is in the pit, and he gets the orchestra and the vocalists to perform as if their lives depended on it.  Larry Kert as Tony sings like a Fifties pop idol.  Just perfect.  All the other versions I've heard are either more stiff, more pompous & stately, or soft.

Peghead - Posted - 01/30/2012:  04:47:26

I've always loved the theme song to The Jetsons. The part that goes "Meet George Jetson" is my favorite

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/30/2012:  10:36:50

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesviolin

... other than the theme from the Simpsons TV show,

 

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Too much! that was great Peghead! it seems that Lydian is not only mystical, ethereal and intoxicating, but also works well for TV cartoon shows 

I wonder how old I was when I first heard the Jetsons theme. Searching the deep recesses of memory... I remember thinking "that's very ultra-modern music".

Thanks again

Edited by - bluesviolin on 01/30/2012 10:38:35

DougD - Posted - 01/30/2012:  10:43:18

bluesviolin - Lots of ways of looking at modes. I was just thinking something similar to your comments about the G and Bb major scales. In a way, Lydian is "looking" towards the V chord through the raised fourth, and Mixolydian is "looking" towards the IV chord with the flat seventh. I don't know if this has any practical significance, but you can kind of hear a "trend" there, or a "shading" as Bayard apparently put it.

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/30/2012:  11:22:11

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

 >I don't know if this has any practical significance,<

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I think it does, as I seem to apply a similar principal over the blues IV chord with dorian and the I chord with mixo... without getting bogged down in trying to explain it.

What I am discovering is that there is a lot more to modal thinking than just scales... as per that other thread of mine that's going nowhere. I've just started in to modal pentatonics from that same guy David Walliman, which is basically altering one or two notes from a regular Major or minor pentatonic scale to fit the applicable mode. Altered Major pents go with Ionian, Lydian & Mixolydian. Altered minor pents go with dorian, pyrgian & aeolian. They not only sound cool, but adapt well for blues players and such that are used to the phrasing of the 5 note scale.

I find it fascinating and very practical for what I do.

DougD - Posted - 01/30/2012:  15:20:22

bluesviolin - This may not apply directly to your interests, but Cecil Sharp had some ideas about classifying "gapped" scales (pentatonic and others) according to their modes in his researches in the southern mountains (US):  traditionalmusic.co.uk/english...00025.htm

Going back or forth a page or two might expand on the idea, if you're really interested. I guess this would be the place to start:  traditionalmusic.co.uk/english...00023.htm

Edited by - DougD on 01/30/2012 15:23:26

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/30/2012:  16:15:03

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

 >Cecil Sharp had some ideas about classifying "gapped" scales (pentatonic and others) according to their modes<

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Yes, this sounds right up my alley, sounds exactly what these modal pentatonics are,,,, "gapped" scales. and you say (pentatonics and ​others​) my head is starting to hurt!

I tried clicking on the links but then it says open a new tab and stuff I don't know about on computers. I've written down the addresses and I'll try a direct google or something like that. 

.... must know about this... if Cecil is talking classifying them according to their modes, I'm interested! Thank You.

DougD - Posted - 01/30/2012:  17:09:49

The links work for me. If it says "Open in new tab," that's just the browser's idea, and it should be OK. There's a lot to think about there in his analysis - somewhat different from what we might say today.

Dorcasmolorcas - Posted - 01/31/2012:  14:31:12

I LOVE modes!  Bluesviolin, I'm so glad to see this post.  I'm totally geeking out at work.  I totally went through a Phrygian phase in college.  I'm glad I can write that somewhere and people know what I mean.  Sigh, this is why I love Fiddle Hangout.  

DougD thanks for posting those links!  

bluesviolin - Posted - 01/31/2012:  16:53:17

Thanks Dorcas, great to hear from another ​Modiac!  To me they're like 7 doors to different dimensions of the musical universe. But the modal universe is all Major scales. What could be easier? and yet so much diversity from Ionian to Locrian.

I remember when this all clicked in for me over the space of a few days. At first I thought I was mistaken... how could this be possible... so many different colors, flavors, moods... all major scales. Yes, I realize there's more to the musical universe than modes. More than one can comprehend in a life time it would seem. But the modes are a big part of it for me.

.... but speaking of Phrygian (and maybe you already know this) just discovered this not too long ago, but Phrygian is rather unique in that it can be played over either a Major or minor chord. With a Major it's very Spanish/Flamenco. With a minor... well, you ​know