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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/25483
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 12/24/2011: 14:39:10
Ok, this may seem like a really silly question coming from a fiddler who has been playing for 13 years.......BUT - (please read all the way through before replying!)
How can I tell what key a tune is in when I don't have the sheet music? I'm asking because I often learn tunes by ear from CDs etc., then later will 'type' the tune up as I hear it using Musescore. I write down every note with the correct rhythm so the MIDI file sounds just like it, (I'm not totally theory ignorant!), but it frustrates me when I don't have it in the right key and it plays it back to me with one wrong sharp and/or flat.
What I need is a SIMPLE breakdown, like a chart I can look at or something, that tells me what the different keys are with what sharps/flats. With a book in front of me I can eventually figure it out (hopefully!) -- Like I know the key of G has the 1 F#, key of A has F# C# & G#...I can read music fine, but have always found this part of theory difficult to remember, but I would like to understand it better. Help?!
I think I read somewhere that it is common for a fiddler not to know what key they're playing in - But if they're a real good fiddler everyone's ok with figuring it out for them......
DougD - Posted - 12/24/2011: 15:23:44
The circle of fifths should help you with this: piano-lessons-central.com/musi...f-fifths/ Also, the last note of a tune is usually the key name. Its a little different for modal tunes. A tune in mixolydian mode has one less sharp than the major - A mixolydian has only two sharps, and a tune in Dorian has two less - D dorian has no sharps or flats.
Although some fiddlers might not know what key they're playing in, I wouldn't say its common.
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 12/24/2011: 15:35:19
Thanks Doug!
Yeah, I'm probably one of the only ones out there....
RobBob - Posted - 12/24/2011: 16:37:41
To some of the old timers it was not that important what key they were in, especially if they played alone. You will hear some older fiddlers announce what chord the tune is on. Richard Bowman will do this so everyone can be on the same page. I encounter fiddlers who don't know the key they are playing and then it is up to others to figure it out. As you study fiddle and you want to gain expertise you will learn scales, chord arpeggios and other techniques that will help you improvise, or learn tunes depending on your personal goals.
The more music you know, the more you may want to know. With every tune, and technique that you acquire, your knowledge of the fiddle and how music works will grow if you pursue them with an inquiring mind. Some folks hold up ignorance as a mark of honor. In reality it is just the absence of knowledge. I have a neighbor who can play countless tunes but cannot transpose them,and does not know the chords or keys of the tunes. He is a good player until you get into a situation where you want to change things up. Then he is lost. If he had a more cognizant approach to learning, he would be more be more able to change up what he plays. As it is he is working blind in a manner of speaking.
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 12/24/2011: 17:11:48
quote:
Originally posted by RobBob
The more music you know, the more you may want to know. With every tune, and technique that you acquire, your knowledge of the fiddle and how music works will grow if you pursue them with an inquiring mind.
Absolutely, and as I have learned more I have come to realize that keys are a weak spot of mine....Which I am going to do my best to change!
SamY - Posted - 12/24/2011: 19:34:47
You simply need to understand the intervals of the do-ra-mi scale, also called the major scale. The key of C has no sharps or flats and its scale is C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. Now the 12 notes of all music is: A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab. Note that there is no sharp or flat between B-C and E-F. It helps to look at a keyboard since the notes are all laid out in a row. Just find a picture of one if you don't have one. On a piano the white keys are the naturals as in the C scale above. The black keys are the sharps and flats. For example, there is a black key between C and D, which can be called either C# or Db. So all the black keys have two possible names (below I explain which name to use). Looking at a keyboard, notice there is no black key between B-C and E-F. There are 7 white and 5 black, which are the 12 notes listed above.
Now....to understand intervals, I need to list the 12 notes again and continue into the next octave: A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab A A#/Bb B C.... Now looking at this list, if you start with C and play the C scale (no sharps or flats), to go from C to D you skip C#/Db, and to go from D to E you skip the D#/Eb, then to go from E to F you don't skip because there's no note to skip. From C to D is called a whole step, from D to E is a whole step, but from E to F is called a half step. Continuing up the scale, from F to G you skip a note, from G to A you skip a note, from A to B skip a note, from B to C nothing to skip, and that completes a one octave scale. So.... the intervals in the scale are: whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half. Now the important thing to understand is that these intervals are the SAME FOR ALL KEYS, that is - whole,whole, half, whole,whole,whole, half.
As another example, lets look at the A scale. Starting at A we skip a note to go to B (whole step). Now to maintain a whole step to the next note, it is necessary to skip a note so we skip C and play C# instead. Our next interval is a half, so we play D. The next three intervals are whole, so we have E, F#, G#, then a half step brings us back to A. Notice that to maintain the intervals for the A scale it is necessary to use C#, F#, G#, so 3-sharps is the key of A. If you look at sheet music in the key of A, the # symbols will be on the C,F, and G notes of the staff.
Notice as we built the A scale we sharped some notes, as opposed to flatting, to maintain the interval rule. As mentioned above, the sharps and flats have 2 possible names. For the A scale, it makes more sense to list the scale...A B C#... rather than A B Db, so that we don't skip any letters of the alphabet, although either way would be the same notes.
As an example of flats, the F scale is: F G A Bb C D E F. To maintain the interval rule, B must be flatted. We could say, F G A A# C D E F, but the first way obviously makes more sense. So 1-flat is the key of F, with B notes to be flatted.
Using the interval rule described above, you can figure out the sharps and flats for all keys. For your convenience, they are: C-none, G-1 sharp, F-1 flat, D-2 sharps, Bb-2 flats, A-3 sharps, Eb-3 flats, E-4 sharps, Ab-4 flats, B- 5 sharps, Db-5 flats, Gb- 6 flats.
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 12/24/2011: 20:01:15
In terms of knowing what key a tune is in, the last note of the tune will almost always be the tonic note, that is, the name of the key.
DryandDusty - Posted - 12/25/2011: 07:59:44
This is a problem for me, too, because I just hear the notes and start playing. I seem to be able to join in and play along in just about any key without knowing what the name of the key is. I hear the intervals (without knowing the name of the interval) and can hit them pretty reliably. Afterwards sometimes I go through the tune slowly and work out what the notes are so that I might know in the future what key that tune is in and I will be able to tip off the guitar player. It is not just a case of finding the end note of the tune and knowing the key unless you are always playing in G major or D major, etc. There are so many accidentals and modal tunes, you really need to be able to know a bit more. I tend to shy away from learning this stuff, but I did sit down a couple times and write out explanations of how keys and modes work for my students. Here is a link to an explanation of modes that might be helpful to you...
mmcconeghy.com/RIMUSIC/modesalamode.htm
boxbow - Posted - 12/25/2011: 10:08:15
There seems to be at least two different takes on the original post.
1. What key is this?
2. How do I transpose this?
For a fiddler, yes, you can very easily not know or care what the key is if you're playing by ear. If you're transposing a tune from aural to paper, or from key to key on paper, then the original post gets pretty interesting. Just to call out the key, usually I can just play a passage and then lay a scale over that, and there it is. If I'm transposing, then I'm not too shy about pulling out my Music Theory for Dummies book, which is a pretty easy to digest resource for flats and sharps in any key, not to mention as a reminder of what a quarter note rest or sixteenth note rest looks like. I have yet to try to read the remaining three quarters of the text. I also pull out a Mel Bay book on scales for mandolin that has some handy references for figuring out possible modes, although that application gets a bit tenuous for me sometimes. I don't play guitar so I'm pretty ignorant of the theory behind chords once you get past minors and sevenths, and that's what people usually are asking for when they want to know the key of a tune. You know, B-flatulent obscure or absurd or whatever they call it.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/25/2011: 14:49:10
Hate to say it, since you already play fiddle and banjo, but having SOME guitar knowledge is handy, since there is a guitarist in nearly every band or jam session. If you know the basic chords yourself, and what they become when they are capoed on the 2nd fret (an extremely common capoing position for "flatpickers", then much of the time you can get key information without having to ask a question.
If you don't want to spring for yet another instrument or do the work involved in learning one, you could still do an image search for "guitar chords"- you will get some images of chords in tablature form, but you will also see photos of guitar players left hands doing the chords.
Find a site that has all the basics used in your genre (Old Time uses mostly E, A, D, G, C, and F (in the keys of A, D, G, and C) and also Em, Am, and maybe Dm, Bm, and F#m.)
Print them out, and use them as flash cards. You don't REALLY have to be able to play them, just recognize them when a guitarist is using them.
Another way is to play softly and find a note that could act as a drone, first one, then two notes. If you find two notes like that, you will have probably found the "tonic" and the fifth of the main chord, and the name of that chord is usually the name of the key (exceptions being modal tunes, depending on how you classify them). Once you have the drone notes, you can either attempt to guess the scale from that, or you can listen for the places of discord, and try to guess what double-stop chord will work best to remove those discords.
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 12/25/2011: 15:04:33
quote:
Originally posted by DryandDusty
This is a problem for me, too, because I just hear the notes and start playing. I seem to be able to join in and play along in just about any key without knowing what the name of the key is. I hear the intervals (without knowing the name of the interval) and can hit them pretty reliably.
DryandDusty, that is exactly what I do!!
Thanks everyone for your tips and the helpful links. Maybe I should get that Music Theories for Dummies book Boxbow mentions....
bj - Posted - 12/25/2011: 18:33:10
If you can play a scale in a certain key, then you know where your fingers are going when you play scales in that key. If your fingers are going the same places but in different order when you're playing a tune, then that's the key you're in.
I most of the time know which key I'm in.
The last note trick does work most of the time, but there are exceptions. One is the tune Shootin' Creek, which is in the key of D but doesn't end on that note, but instead both A and B part end on an A.
DryandDusty - Posted - 12/26/2011: 09:23:51
bj's comment explains how this can quickly get complicated, depending on which way you are looking at things.... so, if you are playing the Henry Reed 'shooting creek' then it is in D and starts and ends on D (as in Alan Jabbours notes in the L of C website) or if you are playing the more common Oscar Wright or Fuzzy Mt versions then you could consider it to be in A modal (mixolydian) - that is, A B C# D E F# G A with the minor 7th, or you can just call it D (major) with weird starting and ending A notes.... It doesnt really make any difference if you are playing by ear. Just play what you hear. Keys and modes are just a construction, anyway...
DougD - Posted - 12/26/2011: 11:04:04
I don't think the choice of ending note is a "trick" exactly. Much music returns to the tonic because there's just something satisfying and comfy about coming "home," which is why its called that.
Not all tunes do though, and I think the 5 and 2 are the most common exceptions. "Cousin Sally Brown" is like this too, and I don't think either it or "Shooting Creek" are in anything but D - they just don't end on the tonic. The original "Miss McCloud's Reel" ends on A, the 2, although some people today like to resolve it to the G. Some of these tunes are "circular" in that one part goes right into the other - they'd go on for ever if somebody didn't raise their foot. I came across this page that mentions this (might interest you, fiddle and banjo player): clem.mscd.edu/~yarrowp/celticdefined.htm
I don't think you need to worry about modal tunes or accidentals too much either. I played a few modal tunes yesterday, and they behave like most others in ending on the tonic - its just a different scale. And I can't think of any tunes that end on an accidental. They certainly occur though - I'd suggest you write the tune in the key suggested by the last note (and often first note too) and see what happens. If some notes are off, then add accidentals, and if there are too many, then take a second look at what mode it might be in.
Edited by - DougD on 12/26/2011 11:05:16
DryandDusty - Posted - 12/26/2011: 12:12:45
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I don't think the choice of ending note is a "trick" exactly. Much music returns to the tonic because there's just something satisfying and comfy about coming "home," which is why its called that.
Not all tunes do though, and I think the 5 and 2 are the most common exceptions. "Cousin Sally Brown" is like this too, and I don't think either it or "Shooting Creek" are in anything but D - they just don't end on the tonic.
-----------------------------------
Well, that's kind of the point. Those tunes do end on the tonic if you consider them to be in A mixolydian. But if you consider them to be in D major, then they don't end on the tonic. So, it's basically semantics as far as that's concerned. Which do want to do, call it a standard A mixolydian ending on A, or call it an odd D major tune that doesn't end on the tonic? It wouldn't change the way the fiddler played it in either case. :-)
Sue B. - Posted - 12/26/2011: 12:36:22
Some old recordings aren't quite accurate to the key; they slowed them down or speeded them up in making vinyl records & its' predecessors. Also, in some old field recordings the player wasn't tuned to A440 or a reasonable variation, he tuned out of the air. So a tune in that seems to be C# might work out OK in C or in D. Sue
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 12/26/2011: 19:58:52
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I'd suggest you write the tune in the key suggested by the last note (and often first note too) and see what happens. If some notes are off, then add accidentals, and if there are too many, then take a second look at what mode it might be in.
I'll try that first Doug!!
When I started learn the violin at a young age by ear, I could never justify trying to remember 'all that' when I could just play what I heard anyway...(Most of the time I still feel that way) - but sometimes it does come in useful!
Thanks again for everyone's helpful advice!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/27/2011: 05:16:49
Dry and Dusty, that's a really nice explanation of keys and modes. I seem to be less aware of key on fiddle, for some reason...on guitar I have to know because I chord r pick notes out f chords constantly...then it can get frustrating if you play certain things because your choice of chord steers the tune in certain tonal directions...sometimes good but sometimes I don't like that. On banjo you have to know because even if you don't chord, you are tuned to play in certain keys, modes, and play within frets. Seems in my mind that on fiddle, which I'm still pretty new at, it's a wide open world f tonality...no frets, no chords, really...at least you don't have the concept of playing inside of chords and progressing from one to another...on fiddle the " progression" ahead of you is undetermined and unconfined by chord, scales, etc., at least in my mind. If you want a better view of what keys, modes you're playing in, I think a lap dulcimer is good for this: you are forced to tune to the scale or mode that fits the tune you wanna play, or else the tune just won't come out...good learning tool, plus a nice instrument.
DryandDusty - Posted - 12/27/2011: 08:24:17
I have the greatest admiration for the guitarists and pianists I play with who are completely unfazed no matter what tune I play or what key I wander into - they just rattle off the chords lickety split. They are terrific!!! And I believe that this kind of accompaniment, although talent is involved, is very much a learned skill. We get better when we play more! So let's all play a lot more. :-)
DougD - Posted - 12/27/2011: 09:42:15
DryandDusty wrote: "So, it's basically semantics as far as that's concerned. Which do want to do, call it a standard A mixolydian ending on A, or call it an odd D major tune that doesn't end on the tonic? It wouldn't change the way the fiddler played it in either case. :-)"
No, its more than semantics, although it may not change the way a fiddler plays the tune. Next time you play "Shooting Creek," ask your accompanists to play an A chord and see how it goes. Just because scales share the same notes doesn't make them interchangeable.
Here's "Cousin Sally Brown," which seems like a somewhat similar tune, in case you're not familiar with it: folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.a...emid=2096
I'm not so familiar with "Shooting Creek," except the Charlie Poole one, which isn't the same tune, but here are a couple versions - the accompaniment is in D:
The Fuzzy Mountain recording: amazon.com/gp/product/B0000003..._i=507846
One from the DLA: aca-dla.org/cdm4/item_viewer.p...amp;REC=6
There's a solo fiddle version on Old Originals Vol.1, but its actually in concert C, although he's playing in D.
I will say that it might be interesting to hear a guitarist go to an A chord on the B part of "Shooting Creek." It might be a little like "Old Jimmy Sutton" that way. But nobody seems to.
There are entries for both of these tunes at the Fiddler's Companion, where they're both described as in D.
DougD - Posted - 12/27/2011: 10:25:58
Thinking further, it does change the way a fiddler plays the tune, in terms of choices of drones and double stops, and also which notes to emphasize to convey the phrasing.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/27/2011: 11:39:23
Of course the really great thing about fiddling or singing is you don't have to think about this stuff...just do it.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/27/2011: 15:47:48
I agree with Doug, it's not mere semantics.
Shootin Creek (another example is Angelina Baker) as stated, end on an A note (also begin on A). What determines the key and mode is not just which notes are used but in how they are used, how they are contextually related. Phrases and main beats are mostly structured in relation to the triad (1/3/5) of D, F# and A; and most of the weight of the tune is in the D pentatonic space (d/e/f#/a/b). A mixolydian uses different triad and pentatonic notes (C#, E and G would play more important melodic roles).
One doesn't need to know much about theory to aurally recognize what directs our brains to what "home" feels like. What feels resolved. Note that "Miss McCloud" ending on a 2 (actually the fifth of the V) does not sound resolved.
No doubt it can important in communicating to others "what key?" are we going to play this in. As well it can make a difference even to how the fiddler (even solo) learns and plays the tune. IMO it is much easier to learn a tune if you understand the structure of how notes work together. Understanding the structural context also helps in the accenting and articulation of notes, so that it's more than just playing a sequence of notes.
DryandDusty - Posted - 12/27/2011: 16:27:42
Totally agree that it makes a difference to the accompanists whether it is is A mix or D major, and that could be true of the fiddler's playing if a lot of double stops are involved. Going back to the original direction of the thread, e.g. how to identify what key is it? and can you tell the key by the ending note, I only meant that the air of the tune itself would not change as a result of labelling it Amix or Dmaj. In that sense it is just semantics...
These different perspectives are very interesting....
FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/28/2011: 08:34:33
There's always this...
tunes.fiddlejammer.com/worksho...Tlist.pdf
:-)
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/28/2011: 12:46:16
My gosh, fiddle jammed!!!! Somebody's been stayin' pretty busy!!!
bj - Posted - 12/28/2011: 13:40:32
For the record, the Fuzzy Mountain version of Shootin Creek is the one I meant. And it is definitely in D, chords for any other scale or mode just don't work for it if you're playing guitar or another chord oriented instrument behind that melody. Anyone who only plays fiddle might consider taking up an instrument that uses chords. I've sung in a chorus and play guitar and flute somewhat passably in addition to fiddle.
mudbug - Posted - 01/01/2012: 15:06:58
When you're playing fiddle, can you hear where the chord changes are? When starting a tune, can you differentiate between the pick-up notes and the first note of the first measure? When you know you have the first note, make a chord out of it to check. Ex: First true note is a C , play a C and an E or a C and a G. 1-3-5. If it fits, you got it.
DougD - Posted - 01/01/2012: 16:50:47
No bj, he means the tonic triad - 1-3-5 notes of the scale. C-E-G for the key of C. Very good advice too.
Edited by - DougD on 01/01/2012 16:53:00
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 01/01/2012: 16:54:46
Mudbug, bj & Doug:
Wait a minute - sounds like I could figure this out - but exactly how does it work?
DougD - Posted - 01/01/2012: 18:01:13
It works because many tunes begin on the tonic (the first note of the scale and the name of the key) as well as end on it, although the ending note is more reliable. Not too many traditional tunes fail to bring us back home after the journey. You have to find the actual "first" note of the tune, usually the first note in the first full measure. "Fisher's Hornpipe," for example, is often played with a triplet on the upbeat, leading up to the "D," which is the first real note, and the name of the key. What mudbug is suggesting is that you try making a major triad - 1,3,5 of the scale - on this note, and if it sounds right that's the key.
Not all tunes begin on the tonic. An example would be "Belles of Lexington," as played by Emmett Lundy. It begins on an A, but it ends on a D, which is the key.
If you have a copy of "O'Neill's Music of Ireland" I'd suggest you spend some time this winter looking at some tunes. The key signature will already be there, and you can look at the first and last notes. It will give you a sense of tune structure (plus you'll probably find some good tunes to learn). It's also available online: oldmusicproject.com/oneils1.html
Edited by - DougD on 01/01/2012 18:06:28
Petimar - Posted - 01/02/2012: 13:08:42
Another way this can be done is listen to the note things seem to revolve around. This is the key center of the melody (most melodies and styles work this way).
It was said earlier that most tunes resolve on the last note of the tune, meaning end on the note of the key. While this is one way to do it, it requires you to wait until the last note of a part. One can train themselves to hear where the key center is. This way you will recognize a key center after just a few notes.
For example, play a C major scale while humming a c note. Do you hear how the notes of the scale seem to "point to" C? Now play the I IV V I chords in C major C F G or G7), again while humming a C note. Hear how the resolve happens when the last C chord is played.
Try the same thing while playing a tune. For example, St Annes Reel in D. Play the tune while humming a D note. Hear how every thing seems to revolve around that D note?
If you do this enough over a period of time, your ear will be able to recognize this very quickly.
Best of luck,
Pete
petimarpress.com
fiddle and banjo player - Posted - 01/02/2012: 15:06:58
Thanks for explaining how that works...I'm definitely hoping to have more time to fiddle this winter and will have a look at that book.
Thanks again!
clawhammerer - Posted - 01/02/2012: 15:08:56
Sharps and flats are applied sequentially. As in FiddleJammer's chart ...
Sharps are F-C-G-D-A-E-B
Flats are B-E-A-D-G-C-F
I've listed the number of sharps or flats for the most common (traditional fiddling) keys below. Take the number of sharps or flats for the respective key listed below then refer to the order of Sharps/Flats listed above and work left to right to determine what notes are sharped/flatted for that key.
Sharps:
C - none
G - 1 (F #)
D - 2 (F and C #'s)
A - 3 (F, C, and G #'s)
E - 4 (F, C, G, and D #'s)
B - 5 (F, C, G, D, and A #'s)
Flats
C - none
F - 1 (B b)
Bb - 2 (B and E b)
This will help you figure out what notes are sharp or flat in any given key. (This doesn't include accidentals...which are most common in old time and bluegrass as "blue notes".
Josh
boxbow - Posted - 01/03/2012: 07:26:10
Also, when looking at the sharps or flats on staff paper, you can call out the key if you know where to look. When looking at the sharps, look at the sharp furthest to the right. The key will be one step higher. That is to say, if you see two sharps, the first is F and the second is C. Therefore, the key is Dmaj. If you see four sharps, then they'll be F-C-G-D and the key is Emaj.
Flats are a bit different. If you see just one flat, then the key is Fmaj. Memorize that one. If you see multiple flats, the key is the second-to-last flat. So when you see four flats they'll be B-E-A-D and the key will be Ab.
Don't forget your relative minors! Pretty embarrassing to call out a tune in Cmaj and have it really be in Amin.
Don't ask. The guitar players were rolling their eyes on THAT one, plus they just didn't care for the tune. It was some unpronounceable Finnish waltz that I call "Musty Karpet" because it sort of looks like that if you kinda squint at it and close one eye. I don't know from Finnish. I do know about musty carpets.
Edited by - boxbow on 01/03/2012 07:32:36
vibratingstring - Posted - 01/12/2012: 12:06:54
Printed!!! What do I owe you, Terri?
Larry
Edited by - vibratingstring on 01/12/2012 12:07:23