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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: minor 6th arps over the IV chord


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/23792

bluesviolin - Posted - 09/15/2011:  14:14:36



something I stumbled across quite a few years ago and think it sounds very nice.



So for your basic 12 bar blues, say in A. Over the IV chord (D) use an Amin6 arp 1 b3 5 6 (A C D F#)



I think it works well running them right up and/or down over all 4 strings, or sounds good mixing it up over 2 or 3 strings. 



Not sure but this might be some kinda 9th inversion or something like that. but just seemed easier for me to think of it as a min6 arp, ie: key of A ... Amin6 arp... only do it when you get to the IV chord...easy to remember which min6 arp yer supposed to do cuz same as the root.



liked this so much I memorized and practiced the patterns over 3 octaves for G D A E C so they're second nature by now. Some keys the fingering is close together, other keys require a bit of stretching. I just do open strings where ever the note occurs in the first position. I think the total effect is better if played fairly fast, usually do 16th notes if the song tempo isn't already too fast. I like my little min6 buddies a lot!  smiley



Edited by - bluesviolin on 09/15/2011 14:34:09

FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/15/2011:  15:51:24



What's 'arp'?


Henry George - Posted - 09/15/2011:  17:18:30



quote:


Originally posted by FiddleJammer



 



What's 'arp'?






 It's a seal......''arp, arp''..



If it's over the IV chord why name it differently?



A, C, D F#  is just an inversion of D, F#, A, C............The D Dominant 7



 


Leon Grizzard - Posted - 09/15/2011:  17:53:46


Should be A C E F#, not A C D F#. A typo I believe.

bluesviolin - Posted - 09/15/2011:  18:42:05



Woops! yes definitely a typo. should have been A C E F#. (silly me) Thanks again Leon! 



arp, arp... wanna see me balance a ball on the end of my scroll? big



arp is short for arpeggio, just so tedious typing out arpeggio, not to mention saying it fast five times in a row... try it!  wink



I guess it's not an inversion of D F# A C  if I'd get my notes straight!



Well, sure screwed that thread up right off the bat!  blackeye



Still think they're a cool fill for the IV chord though..... yes



 



 



 



 


Henry George - Posted - 09/15/2011:  18:43:19



quote:


Originally posted by Leon Grizzard




Should be A C E F#, not A C D F#. A typo I believe.






 Oh yes?.........Thanks Leon.


Leon Grizzard - Posted - 09/15/2011:  19:17:11



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin


Still think they're a cool fill for the IV chord though..... yes



 



 It is cool. The use of the I minor arpeggios over the IV chord in Blues is a cool Jazz device. I minor 9 is often used. You could just think of those notes in regard to the IV chord and, and so your Am6 or Am9 over the D chord would be notes of the D7 chord, or D13 or something, but it really does come out different if you think of Am, even playing the same notes. And you are less likely to play the D note and pay attention to the color notes instead.



 



 






 


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/15/2011:  19:59:07



Yes, that's it! by George I do believe you've got it Leon. Skipping the D note is what makes these sound good. The D note is "implied" by the rest of the band. or in my case the back track  big and the minor-ish color comes thru.



So that's two things in as many days you've helped me sort out in the ole noggin. Yesterday it was b5 for blues, b3 for swing. Today it's implied D for minor 6 arp arps. 



Keep it comin'


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/15/2011:  20:24:50



quote:


Originally posted by Henry George




quote: If it's over the IV chord why name it differently?


A, C, D F#  is just an inversion of D, F#, A, C............The D Dominant 7



 



​Sorry about the confusion Henry. Your post makes perfect sense considering my OP.



 






 


Henry George - Posted - 09/15/2011:  21:11:11



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin




quote:


Originally posted by Henry George




quote: If it's over the IV chord why name it differently?


A, C, D F#  is just an inversion of D, F#, A, C............The D Dominant 7



 



​Sorry about the confusion Henry. Your post makes perfect sense considering my OP.



 






 






 Ah, but I forgot to put my thinking cap on..................... 


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/16/2011:  09:05:21



rambling on here.... I do these minor 6 arpeggios over the root chord also. would be Emin6 over the A chord. Same principal applies I guess. this time I would be "skipping" the A note. but I think this time it would give the root chord a Mixo flavor? Seems like A mixo contains all the notes in the Emin6 arp.



The Emin6 over A cord and Amin6 over D chord is a bit much if done for both. But if I start out on the A chord with the Emin6 arp bit, can do something different over the IV chord, maybe throw in some diminished riffs for the IV  instead or something.



So I dunno, maybe all this is just a "13th" or something like Leon says. Just that I've never really heard anyone thinking it out this way or talking about it. Trying to make some converts hereyes I like the way these fall to hand, and once you get the patterns in your head, can do it without thinking too hard about it. Run out of ideas, throw some of these in over the I or IV. I think they're just a bit different if done as a "minor 6", something for that ole bag O tricks.



Edited by - bluesviolin on 09/16/2011 09:09:32

DougD - Posted - 09/16/2011:  09:15:59



The notes you mentioned F#,A,C,E are the notes of a D9 chord, without the root, which is the IV chord in the key of A. That makes the most sense to me.



They also make up an F# "half diminished" chord (F#m7b5) but I don't know if that makes any harmonic sense.


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/16/2011:  10:16:02



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin




Not sure but this might be some kinda 9th inversion or something like that.






Thanks Doug, looks like my guess on the OP wasn't too far off. But now I'll hafta get out a Jamie Aebersold book and see if the min7b5 lines that he offers work over the IV chord.



side note: the min7b5 to dom7#9 to minor I, is one of my all time favorite progressions.


FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/16/2011:  13:17:31



Oh, you mean arpeggio?


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/16/2011:  17:36:56



quote:


Originally posted by FiddleJammer




What's 'arp'?






..... need some help here from some FHO regulars. FJ is kidding me right? I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes so it took me about a day to realize the play on words. So I'm sitting here looking at her photo thinking, hmm, this kinda looks like the kinda gal who would be kidding me. Then I thought about it a little more... senior member... 1154 posts.... she's gotta be kidding me! Am I right?



What's arp with that? big



Edited by - bluesviolin on 09/16/2011 17:46:56

FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/16/2011:  18:49:02



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin




quote:


Originally posted by FiddleJammer





What's 'arp'?






..... need some help here from some FHO regulars. FJ is kidding me right? I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes so it took me about a day to realize the play on words. So I'm sitting here looking at her photo thinking, hmm, this kinda looks like the kinda gal who would be kidding me. Then I thought about it a little more... senior member... 1154 posts.... she's gotta be kidding me! Am I right?



What's arp with that? big






I'm not kidding anyone. "Over the IV chord (D) use an Amin6 arp 1 b3 5 6 (A C D F#)"... not jargon that I'm familiar with. I can translate A minor 6, but was not familiar with arp. Also I don't get the 'b' in  b3 5 6 (A C D F#)... that's a flatted 3rd is it?



So, it was a serious question, not a pun. I figure if it looks Greek to me, and I know a little music theory, it's worth asking the question. Probably Greek to more folks than just me.


Bart - Posted - 09/16/2011:  19:46:46



This comment is just an "aside," I guess, but this is the sort of thing that, if I simply heard a 10-15 second clip of a sound file of this arpeggio played over the chord you mention...just one example...I would likely get it in a heartbeat, and be able to translate it to different keys, etc.  But, just reading all that makes my eyes glaze over and I check out. 



This isn't a complaint about the fact of how theory works and is written about...I just can't seem to get it, even with very good and basic books like yours, Leon.  A sound clip is worth a thousand words to me when it comes to theory and variations.  I wish that wasn't true, but I just can't follow these discussions or seem to learn this stuff from books.



I'm told I play things that I can't begin to discuss, and it's frustrating.  I wish you all well in your discussions, however, and I'll keep lurking along trying to see if it will ever make sense to me the further I go along.



OK, carry on!  And, I don't mean to hijack the thread.  If someone has a response, perhaps it would be more appropriate to start a new thread, or maybe just message me.  :-)


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/16/2011:  22:34:50



quote:


So, it was a serious question, not a pun. I figure if it looks Greek to me, and I know a little music theory, it's worth asking the question. Probably Greek to more folks than just me.





My apologies Fiddle Jammer. I was honestly confused there, thought arp was a widely understood short for arpeggio and thought we were just having a bit of fun, especially after Henry's *seal* quip. which I thought was pretty funny btw. Although I didn't see a smiley in your post so just wasn't sure how to take it. My mistake, Sorry about that!



and yes, the b3 is a flattened 3rd. 


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/16/2011:  23:34:19



quote:


Originally posted by Bart




OK, carry on!  And, I don't mean to hijack the thread.  If someone has a response, perhaps it would be more appropriate to start a new thread, or maybe just message me.  :-)






Hi Bart: well, I've got a response, and since I started the thread.... I agree with pretty much everything you've said. About a sound bite being worth a thousand words, and eyes glazing over etc. Many times I've shook my head over 'theory" posts and said "I don't get it".  I'm sure you can play past what you can describe in theory, and that's the most important thing, right? So why do we participate in sites like these? Well for me, It's because I love the violin. when I'm not practicing, I'd just as soon be  talking about them, and listening to other people talk about them, than doing much of anything else. Whether it's theory, strings, set-up, styles, and all the other things that surround this magical mystical instrument. 



but anyways back to the "theory" debate -  the other side of the coin. If I'm listening to some complicated jazz or some hot Texas swing or whatever, and wondering what's going on and thinking "how the heck does he do that" and no way I could figure it out just by listening, sometimes if you dissect stuff with some theory, you can get a grasp on how it's accomplished. Besides the 20 or so 30's - 40's jazzy type standards I do for busking, I do mostly improv. Theory helps me figure out what scale, pattern, mode or arpeggio to apply over a chord or a chord progression. I figure the more you know about what's going on, the more control you have with what you're doing. Obviously there's lots of great players out there that don't bother much with theory, they just seem to feel it out somehow. But I can't seem to do that too well.



Edited by - bluesviolin on 09/17/2011 09:45:04

Bart - Posted - 09/18/2011:  00:10:57



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin




quote:


Originally posted by Bart





OK, carry on!  And, I don't mean to hijack the thread.  If someone has a response, perhaps it would be more appropriate to start a new thread, or maybe just message me.  :-)






but anyways back to the "theory" debate -  the other side of the coin.






I believe you may have misunderstood my post.  I have no interest in getting into any debate about us versus them on FHO (such as classical vs OT, dots vs ear, theory vs....whatever the opposite would be).



I'm saying, I WISH I could understand theory the way it is written about and discussed.  I just can't seem to.  It would be helpful, I feel sure.  Both for my own learning, and for communicating with others when playing together.  I just can't seem to do it.  Therefore, I'm always longing to at least hear a sound clip of what people are discussing.  I find in lessons that if I can hear it first, then sometimes the teaching makes more sense.  I can sometimes "reverse engineer" it, so to speak.  Whereas, if I have to read it first, I never can conceptualize it.  I find Tim Kliphuis's videos helpful in this regard.  He says a lot of words I don't understand, but when he plays the example, then I can take that away with me, at least.



No debate intended.  I was lamenting that I can't seem to get it from the written word.  It's just not how my brain processes info, I think.  More power to those who can.



 


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/18/2011:  13:29:47



Originally posted by Bart


  >Therefore, I'm always longing to at least hear a sound clip of what people are discussing<


​yeah, that would be great if there were sound clips attached to the theory threads. I know my learning curve would increase exponentially. I guess that would be a bit complicated and time consuming though. I've got a Tascam recorder, but don't even know how to get it out of the recorder onto the forum. 


.... not trying to start an us vs them debate on theory discussion  (which would be endless) just saying... for me, I have trouble sometimes figuring out what's going on by listening. If I can get a grasp on the theory behind it... helps a lot. What gets me is players who seem to have in inborn sense of it. They don't know it, they don't need it, they just do it. and do it very well!


 


 



 






 


Bart - Posted - 09/18/2011:  13:36:11



Bluesviolin, this isn't any kind of rebuttal, more like an aside, in case you're interested.  It only takes a second to create a quick MP3 sound file.  Download Audacity for free.  Open it, hit the red record button, and if your computer has even a crappy little microphone, like the built-in on my laptop, you can get sound files in the amount of time it takes you to play the notes and export the file as an MP3.  Is the quality professional?  Nah, but it does the job for learning and sharing.


bluesviolin - Posted - 09/18/2011:  14:07:00



hmm, someone else was talking to me about audacity a while back. Sounds like it might be do-able, even for a dinosaur like me. Thanks Bart!


fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/18/2011:  17:43:02



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin




hmm, someone else was talking to me about audacity a while back. Sounds like it might be do-able, even for a dinosaur like me. Thanks Bart!






audacity.sourceforge.net/download/



 



I found Audacity to be pretty intuitive, and it's so common that it wouldn't be at all hard to find someone to explain how to do something in the program.



If you want to post mp3's, the Audacity installation needs to have a LAME library installed so it can "export" (convert to) an mp3 version of your recording- the 1.3 series has it installed already, the 1.2 series needs it to be installed after the main installation.



This explains how:



audacity.sourceforge.net/help/...=lame-mp3


bluesviolin - Posted - 02/22/2012:  16:47:04



Hallooo Fiddlepogo: thanks for these links. I may be ready to get into this in a few weeks. I won a JVC HD video cam and it should be here in a couple of weeks and I'm looking for more advice if you would be so kind. Here's what I'm thinking so far. I've got a Traynor K4 keyboard amp with 3 channels and channel 3 has left & right RCA jacks along with left/mono & right regular guitar jacks. But chanel 3 only has a gain control whereas 1&2 have bass, mid & treble controls along with gain controls.



Would I plug the video cam into the RCA jacks? I would still need to put my antique Yamaha QY 100 semi-cheesy music sequencer into the amp for the backgrounds that I want to play over, along with my barcus berry fiddle, but I've also got a small mixer which might come in handy. I figure if I put everything into the amp I'll get a better stronger signal & mix than trying to mic my acoustic.



now about this audacity...do I want to post mp3's ? ...as opposed to what?



then I guess I'll hafta figure out to get the stuff out of the video cam into the audacity program and out to the world wide inter-web. At that point I may be looking at hiring some 10 year old kid.



Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks muchly.


Bart - Posted - 02/22/2012:  19:09:26



quote:


Originally posted by bluesviolin




Hallooo Fiddlepogo: thanks for these links. I may be ready to get into this in a few weeks. I won a JVC HD video cam and it should be here in a couple of weeks and I'm looking for more advice if you would be so kind. Here's what I'm thinking so far. I've got a Traynor K4 keyboard amp with 3 channels and channel 3 has left & right RCA jacks along with left/mono & right regular guitar jacks. But chanel 3 only has a gain control whereas 1&2 have bass, mid & treble controls along with gain controls.



Would I plug the video cam into the RCA jacks? I would still need to put my antique Yamaha QY 100 semi-cheesy music sequencer into the amp for the backgrounds that I want to play over, along with my barcus berry fiddle, but I've also got a small mixer which might come in handy. I figure if I put everything into the amp I'll get a better stronger signal & mix than trying to mic my acoustic.



now about this audacity...do I want to post mp3's ? ...as opposed to what?



then I guess I'll hafta figure out to get the stuff out of the video cam into the audacity program and out to the world wide inter-web. At that point I may be looking at hiring some 10 year old kid.



Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks muchly.






I don't have a video cam, but I take videos with my little digital camera and use the instructions and software that came with it to upload videos from the camera to the computer.  It is a one-step deal, and super easy.  Once the video is on the computer, you can open Audacity and under File, choose Import.  Under Import, you can choose Audio.  Then use the pop up box to click on the video file you just saved to your hard drive.  Just like that, it imports the audio from the video right into Audacity.  Then, again under File, this time you choose Export, and it will export the sound as an MP3 to the location/file-name you choose.



At least that's how I do it, and maybe someone has an easier or better sounding way.  Anyhow, once you get the video file onto your computer, getting the sound into Audacity is really easy, at least with my camera/computer.  I'm no tech whiz, and I'm for sure no 10-year-old.  You can do it!  :-)



(Edited to add:  I just realized that RealPlayer also converts video audio to MP3 format...I do that with You Tube videos.  I use Real Player to download the video to my computer, and then I convert it to MP3 so I can listen to the sound files, put them on digital music players, make CDs for the car, etc.)



 



 



Edited by - Bart on 02/22/2012 19:13:54

bluesviolin - Posted - 02/23/2012:  10:23:24


Thank you very much for that input Bart, I appreciate it! I'll refer back to it when I get further into it. I've also got a Tascam DR-07 digital recorder and I'm finding out that using that along with the video cam would be better sound quality than just the video cam recorder. I think if I'm going to do this, might as well go with the higher quality route, even though it would be more complicated than the cell phone route. would prolly be almost as complicated for me to upload from my cell phone anyways, as I don't even take photos with my cell.

I'm sure your import / export info will come in handy. Thanks again.

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