BetteB - Posted - 08/09/2011:  17:48:21

It's in the back of a violin scale arpeggio book, with no explanation as to how to use it.  Anyone know....?

fidnaz - Posted - 08/09/2011:  18:02:55

I had the same experience. Gradually began figuring things out long after I had memorized, then forgotten about it.
Reading clockwise around the circle, the notes go up in fifths, and that turns out to be a really important interval in harmony. (The strings on your fiddle in standard tuning, GDAE, are a little section of the ciircle of fifths, really.)

Reading counterclockwise around the circle, the intervals are in fourths, and that's significant, too. The most commonly used chords in major keys are based on the 1st, the 4th, and the 5th notes of that scale. So if you find the key you are playing in on the circle, the most common chords in that key are that root note's chord and the chords immediately adjacent to it on either side.
That's one thing you can do with it; there's more, but no need to muddle your mind with too much of this at once.

leather Britches - Posted - 08/09/2011:  20:52:46

BetteB, 

    Fidnaz is right, however I have found that looking at the diagram, can clear up some questions.

    Here is a web-site dedicated to the Circle of Fifth's , their is a lot of information contained in the seemingly simple diagram.

    John

vibratingstring - Posted - 08/10/2011:  04:40:43

fidnaz says: "Reading clockwise around the circle, the notes go up in fifths, ....Reading counterclockwise around the circle, the intervals are in fourths, and that's significant, too. "

That can be confusing to someone not familiar with the circle of fifths depiction. (it begs the question: How can a interval be different going clockwise verses counterclockwise in the circle of 5ths?)

The circle of 5ths (clockwise while ascending the scale) can be a circle of 4ths (COUNTERclockwise while ascending the scale).

I usually think of it this way: The interval between two notes such as C and F can be either a 4th or a 5th depending on the root key I am playing in.
- key of C: the F is the fourth note in the C scale.
- key of F: the C is the fifth note in the F scale.

...just a few thoughts on an interesting topic.

Larry




Larry

RobBob - Posted - 08/10/2011:  07:02:23

The circle of 5ths is the key to understanding western music.

bj - Posted - 08/10/2011:  12:31:52

This has already been discussed on the forum quite a bit. In future, you might try using the forum search, your answer might already be here.

fiddlehangout.com/topic/17481

fiddlehangout.com/topic/18457

fiddlehangout.com/archive/2276

fiddlehangout.com/archive/2031

playmorebluegrass - Posted - 08/10/2011:  18:16:10

the circle of fifths is EASY ! if you can count to five. start with c. c is on top with nooooooo sharps or flats.
count up five on your fingers. you reach G.....G is at one oclock....so it has ONE sharp......
count up five more......you reach D. (GABCD)..... D is at two oclock....so how many sharps will D have? two...
this is how i explain to my piano students.... when you get to 6 o clock.....you start counting flats....i might post a blog on this topic. hope what i have said helps. the circle of fifths is an awesome tool. actually. when i teach scales.... that is the way I put their scales in order. and end back at C.... minors are the same way. count up five. hence... the circle of fitths =)

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/11/2011:  03:04:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by BetteB

It's in the back of a violin scale arpeggio book, with no explanation as to how to use it.  Anyone know....?

---

IMO, the circle of  fifths is overrated, as if it were the rosetta stone of music. It's just a chart. While it does seem to have some "oh, wow" aspects to it, but then again when you realize some of the math (based on the number twelve and a closed circle), and that it is a bit of cyclical logic, (it shows you patterns, because it's designed in those patterns), it seems less "wow". Yep it shows adjacent fifths, and fourths, precisely because it's arranged as adjacent fifths and fourths.

It doesn't really do much to explain or understand the why of harmonic relationships, and there IMO are better ways to understand them.

So the question is how to use it? Most folks are just told "it's important" so learn it, without then really getting into much of how you would actually use it. Very few musicians I know actually put it to practical use. Certainly I never see them bring it out as a reference when playing music. Don't know many that have actually memorized it. to the point they could quickly apply it. They use other things to guide them through out the harmonic space.

So, IMO, if you are not seeing anything significant about it, or how to use it, don't sweat it.

fidnaz - Posted - 08/11/2011:  18:03:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Yep it shows adjacent fifths, and fourths, precisely because it's arranged as adjacent fifths and fourths.

---

Amen to that. It's one of those "empirical" things, I guess that's the right word--sort of like the guitar chord wheel or some of the i-phone apps I've seen that show you a chord without any idea WHY it's there.

You can get stuff out of it, but only after you have learned the stuff to begin with. Then it's kind of a memory hook that might be handy to keep around. I think my Fiddlewidget is a lot more useful; shows me the scales, chords, all the scale degrees for any key, and maps them to the fiddle neck. I'd rather learn that way, visually and by ear, than by looking at an abstract chart hanging on the wall, but everybody has a little different take on it.

Percy - Posted - 08/12/2011:  07:14:07

As a guitar player, I've used the "circle" for years... it's an excellent way to learn to transpose chords from one key to another easily. Once you have an understanding of the chords that make up one key, then you just have to move to another place on the circle and apply the same pattern. Granted, there are other ways to come to the same place, but this is a tool that can come in handy...

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/12/2011:  15:00:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Percy

As a guitar player, I've used the "circle" for years... it's an excellent way to learn to transpose chords from one key to another easily. Once you have an understanding of the chords that make up one key, then you just have to move to another place on the circle and apply the same pattern. Granted, there are other ways to come to the same place, but this is a tool that can come in handy...

---

Whatever works for you, if you find that efficient way approaching it.

FoR myself (and many other folks) I have found a much easier way for guitar. First all the music I play just needs to  generally just concerned with adjacent fifths at any one time, and none that goes all the way around the circle. So on a guitar and bass it's really easy (IMO) to quickly find the adjacent fifths, without every having to know anything about a circle. I use that the bass notes are tuned in adjacent fourths, which is just an inverted fifth relationship. So the fourth of a note is the adjacent string higher on the same fret; or the adjacent string lower back 2 frets. The fifth is the adjacent string higher up two frets; or adjacent string lower on the same fret. If I mentally visualize anything it's little rectangular boxes, not circles. So that quickly gives the fourth and fifth of a key. For other notes I tend to think of the interval; that is I think of going from C to E as a major third rather than imagining going around a circle 4 progression of fifths.

But whatever tool works for you.

Percy - Posted - 08/12/2011:  15:38:16

But you have to remember, for the first 30 years I played guitar, I didn't have a clue about fourths, fifths, major thirds -- and all that. I knew keys and chords... and I got to be pretty darned good at playing with just those tools -- along with the ability to recognize patterns even if I didn't know what they were called. The method you describe would have confused the daylights out of me. The circle of fifths was easier for my head to understand.

Larry Rutledge - Posted - 08/12/2011:  19:21:15

Fidnaz, Whats a fiddlewidget and how do you use one? Yall have a blessed day Larry

Bart - Posted - 08/13/2011:  07:22:33

You might find this short book, and the wheel tool with transparent overlay, interesting.

google.com/products/catalog?q=...DkQ8wIwAg

Larry Rutledge - Posted - 08/13/2011:  11:06:37

Thank you Bart, Im gonna order one and give it a spin. I need all the help I can get. Yall have a blessed day Larry

fidnaz - Posted - 08/13/2011:  17:14:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Rutledge

Fidnaz, Whats a fiddlewidget and how do you use one? Yall have a blessed day Larry

---

It's a slide-rule style map of a fiddle neck (or about any other instrument) in standard tuning--finds scales, major chords, double-stops,

short-cuts to other chord forms, all the way up the neck in any key, and up to 5th position on the fiddle neck. Just set it on the root note of the key you're in and use it like a map. I think you learn a lot of practical theory that you can actually use just by pushing it around. Elderly, Janet Davis Music, banjo.com, lots of folks have them. Or go here and look around:

fiddlewidget.com

Larry Rutledge - Posted - 08/13/2011:  20:15:45

As always yall don't mind helping out, if I ever get to a point where I can help I will. Yall have a blessed day Larry

elholcomb - Posted - 10/10/2011:  02:22:38

"Back cycle thru the circle of fifths"....anyone????

elholcomb - Posted - 10/10/2011:  02:23:35

"Back cycle thru the circle of fifths"....anyone????

elholcomb - Posted - 10/10/2011:  02:24:25

"Back cycle thru the circle of fifths"....anyone????

Henry George - Posted - 10/10/2011:  02:56:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by elholcomb



"Back cycle thru the circle of fifths"....anyone????

---

 Can cycle through the fiths anyway you like...............................

Sue B. - Posted - 10/10/2011:  13:23:16

The "Circle of Fifths" is one of several memory devices. It is a way to work out how many sharps or flats in each major & minor key. Folks who use sheet music all the time typically just know that stuff after a while, but the Circle helps put keys & key signatures in a logical order, or work out what goes with what if you don't just have it in your head. Some other common devices: Fat Cats Get Dizzy After Eating Butter for the order of sharps in sharp keys. Say that backwards, or spell "B-E-A-D Greatest Common Factor" for order of flats. "Next to the last flat names the key". "Half-step up from the last sharp names the key." Probably others. Sue

FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/10/2011:  20:45:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by leather Britches

BetteB, 

    Fidnaz is right, however I have found that looking at the diagram, can clear up some questions.

    Here is a web-site dedicated to the Circle of Fifth's , their is a lot of information contained in the seemingly simple diagram.

 

    John

---

Very cool website, that.

DougD - Posted - 10/11/2011:  09:49:44

This weekend a musician friend of mine was wearing a watch with the circle of fifths instead of numbers. Like this:  chromaticwatch.com/fifths.html  He said people often comment "That's neat, but how can you tell what time it is?"

Henry George - Posted - 10/11/2011:  18:03:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddleJammer

quote:

---

Originally posted by leather Britches

BetteB, 

    Fidnaz is right, however I have found that looking at the diagram, can clear up some questions.

    Here is a web-site dedicated to the Circle of Fifth's , their is a lot of information contained in the seemingly simple diagram.

 

    John

---

Very cool website, that.

---

 Very cool T shirts too....

Many of students think this is cool also............

This explains how and why the sharps are added............

C,D,E,F,G,A,B,

G,A,B,C,D,E,F#

D.E.F#.G.A.B.C#

A.B.C#.D.E.F#.G#.

E.F#.G#.A.B.C#.D#

B.C#.D#.E.F#.G#.A#....etc.

See the pattern?

andrew73 - Posted - 02/12/2012:  14:05:59

we use the circle of fifths for remembering how many sharps or flats are in each key. Or for chord substitution, determining the best transition, modulation to another key.