Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/18714
tboudre - Posted - 01/02/2011: 15:30:14
I was just looking at Online music videos.com and never knew there was such a thing as harmonic or melodic or natural for that matter 'minor' scales. Can anyone explain the difference? I'm thinking about getting them (major and minor) to improve my intonation as you can see just where your fingers go but don't know which 'minor' scale video to get.
Thanks,
Theresa
cheekee - Posted - 01/02/2011: 17:30:41
harmonic minor - you raise the 7th note one half-step both ascending and descending the scale.
melodic minor - you raise the 6th and the 7th note one half-step when ascending, and then you lower them back down again that half-step when descending...which means that when you're going down the scale, you're actually playing the natural minor scale.
remember, to raise a note one half step, a flat becomes a natural and a natural becomes a sharp...and a sharp becomes a double sharp (i know....yuck). when you're lowering that 6th and 7th on the way down a melodic scale, just erase in your mind any changes you made and use the key signature to come back down.
bsed - Posted - 01/02/2011: 17:50:02
quote:
Originally posted by cheekee
harmonic minor - you raise the 7th note one half-step both ascending and descending the scale.
melodic minor - you raise the 6th and the 7th note one half-step when ascending, and then you lower them back down again that half-step when descending...which means that when you're going down the scale, you're actually playing the natural minor scale.
remember, to raise a note one half step, a flat becomes a natural and a natural becomes a sharp...and a sharp becomes a double sharp (i know....yuck). when you're lowering that 6th and 7th on the way down a melodic scale, just erase in your mind any changes you made and use the key signature to come back down.
See, this is why I suck at Music Theory. Allow me to elaborate with the following scene from a Bugs Bunny episode you probably missed:
Wait just a cottonpickin' minute there, whippersnapper!
If you got yerself a tune in "melodic minor" (now for clarification, I'm not talkin' about scales) how do you know whether to play a raised or lowered 6th or 7th? Hmm?
Edited by - bsed on 01/02/2011 17:53:52
cheekee - Posted - 01/02/2011: 18:21:45
you don't really get a tune in harmonic minor or melodic minor. they're just scales. :) it sure seems like most minor fiddle tunes are modal anyway, so you can probably just ignore it all that natural, harmonic and melodic junk for the most part.
as for learning in TRUE minor keys (not modes)...i tend to think that i will assume the 7th note is raised to help me find the shape (so i have a proper "do-ti-do" sound), and i treat anything other than that 7th note as i would any other accidental in any other tune.
i have good auditory memory, but i also tend to think of my playing in terms of shapes (of finger patterns) and sometimes even the way it feels to reach for certain note combinations. i know...weird. i find that when i'm playing in A minor, it feels a little funny because my third finger stretches out so far on the D string and pulls back so far on the E string...it feels wide. but knowing that is helpful to me. anyways, i find the scale shape and i know the framework for a tune; i can pick out notes that are coming from outside that framework.
now, don't get the wrong idea...if you play me a reel don't expect me to have it by the end of the second time through. but if a strong player is leading a waltz or a march that isn't too fast, i can often get it for the third round. but it is only because i know my scales, key signatures and arpeggios and i have a game plan for moving the melody up and down. on the downside...the fact that i know these things has probably contributed to some fairly major gaps in my learning because teachers often assume that i know specific stuff about fiddle playing that i absolutely do not. :)
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 01/02/2011: 18:22:37
The natural minor scale is the aolian mode, and has exactly the same notes as the major scale a minor third above the root, such as A minor and C major. The cadence progression is VII to i, like G to Am in the key of A natural minor. You see that in fiddle tunes and folk type tunes.
The modern way of playing in minor keys is to raise the seventh scale degree by a half step, that is, instead of A minor's G, you play G#. That gives you a leading tone, one half step below the A, which has more pull to the A than G to A does. It also means that at that point in the progression, with that alteration, you have a V7 chord, E7 in the key of A minor (E G# B D). This is the same type of V7 chord as in major keys, that is, E7 to Am, just like E7 to A in the key of A major. And so the modern practice is to utilize the same V7-I cadence as in major keys, V7-i in the minor keys. Many modern tunes in minor keys use both chords, the VII and V7, that is, both G and E7 in the key of A minor. Some parts will go G-Am, some will go E7-Am. One note difference in the scales. The one with the raised 7th scale degree is harmonic minor.
Harmonic minor gives you a step and a half between the 6th and 7th scale degrees. In A minor you jump up a step and half from F to G#. Therefore, often, mainly in classical music, F# is played instead to even out the intervals when playing the ascending scale. That is melodic minor and I think might be described as a practice rather than a scale. Descending, the natural minor scale is used, and I believe, that is way it is or was taught in violin methods.
Melodic minor played the same both ascending and descending is called Jazz minor, and there are Jazz tunes using it as a scale.
For most popular music, including fiddle music, knowing natural minor along with the one alteration to harmonic minor as needed is the thing to learn.
cheekee - Posted - 01/02/2011: 18:49:23
i think i had to read that 3 times. let's give a simple example to anyone who might just be dying to play one of these scales but doesn't know how. let's use A minor
Aeolian Mode - A B C D E F G A ...and back down the same way (remember, this one has a strange chord structure)
A Natural Minor - A B C D E F G A ....and back down the same way
A Harmonic Minor - A B C D E F G# A ....and back down the same way
A Melodic Minor - A B C D E F# G# A ....then descending A G F E D C B A
A Jazz Minor (taken from Leon's directions above so correct me if I'm wrong) - A B C D E F# G# A ...then back down the same way. (since i'm not a jazz player, don't even ask me about the chords :-) ha ha
...sadly...it may kill me to play them all....so i probably won't get around to it...on fiddle anyway...
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/03/2011: 04:44:50
Just depends on which last three notes are played in the minor scale... to determine which type of minor scale it is... and a minor scale is "sad" sounding, instead of happy sounding like a major scale.
I agree you don't really need to identify what type of minor scale you're playing in... just confuses things... the music is just the way it is and you just play what sounds right.... a music theorist would come along behind you and name that scale... the music comes first, the theory just describes it. You don't really have to know it to play it.
fiddleiphile - Posted - 01/03/2011: 05:54:19
Peggy, Thank you! I majored in music 40 years ago and these explainations confused me too! I know this stuff somewhere in the back of my head but I liked your answer the best. Your ear will always tell you when your right unless you just crave the theory part.
tboudre - Posted - 01/03/2011: 07:51:01
Whew, Thanks, for the replies - that's going to take some time to figure out! Unfortunately, after looking at it for the last 30 min. I'm confused and will have to come back to it after a while and try to break it down piecemeal. Also, Leon I'll go through your book.
The tunes in minor I want to learn are Tam Lin in Dm and Catharsis - slow version - which is in Gm. Is there a short version on how to tell if they'd be on the harmonic or melodic scale?
for ex. Tam Lin in Dm (the relative minor of F major). The B is the 6th note so that would make it melodic??
The reason I'm asking is because I want to purchase the videos of the different scales to improve my intonation but don't know which ones to buy. All of them - natural, melodic, and harmonic?
Thanks for all your help,
Theresa
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 01/03/2011: 08:45:52
If it is in G minor, the key signature having two flats, and there are no accidentals in the music, it is G natural minor. If it has F# rather than F, that would be harmonic minor at that point. I really think of harmonic minor as a variation on minor; you seldom see tunes that are completely harmonic minor, unless you are playing Yngwie Malmsteen or other Neoclassical Rock tunes on the violin. In the Dm tune, if it had B instead of Bb, and C# instead of C, it would be D melodic minor; if it had Bb and C#, it would be D harmonic minor, at that point.
And you don't see tunes written completely in melodic minor outside of Jazz, although you may see it used in places here and there. There is a tune called Honey Boy that uses melodic minor in the pickup phrase.
While I agree with Peggy that for fiddle tunes, you can just learn the tune and don't worry about scale, but I like understanding what is going on; when you see the accidentals it doesn't seem weird or anything.
OTJunky - Posted - 01/03/2011: 09:15:24
You have to be a bit careful in applying classical music theory to traditional music. Here are links to music for "Tam Lin" and "Carthis" where the music is written down by "traditional" players.
A version of Tam Lin - from WWW.TheSessions.org
thesession.org/tunes/display/248
A version of Catharsis - from Natalie Macmaster's web site.
nataliemacmaster.com/tunes/nb/...arsis.jpg
You'll notice that both these tunes are just written in Aeolian mode (what classical music theorists call "natural minor"). Tam Lin is in G Aeolian mode and Cartharsis is in D aeolian mode. There are no "accidentals" shown in either piece of music.
But there will be accidentials in either tune when played by a Scottish, Irish or Cape Breton fiddler because of the "ornamentation" that's used. A "short roll" or a "long roll" on a G note is always going to be played using G, A and F# without regard to the key or mode. Similarly either of these rolls on a D note is always going to be played using D, E and C#.
You can find sheet music for Tam Lin that tries to capture the effects of this kind of ornamentation by including "triplet" figures with accidentals. But this is the wrong way to write down traditional fiddle music. When writting down traditional fiddle tunes, it's better to write down the tune without ornamention - because the choice of what ornamentation to use and where to use it is part of each individual fiddler's art.
As an aside, I can't say that I've ever heard a traditional piece of music that uses what classical theorists call the "harmonic" or "melodic" minor scales. I've always thought these scales were invented for their effects when used in orchestral harmonies.
But I really don't know that much about Scottish music and given J. Scott Skinner's influence there and his classical training I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Scottish tunes that use these scales. But I don't think that either Tam Lin or Cartharsis are among them.
--OTJ
cheekee - Posted - 01/03/2011: 09:30:26
that's totally right. when learning a minor tune...if you want to use the shape of the scale to help you...don't worry about all those scales. scales are exercises. i have never ever (in either of my music degrees) been asked to determine if a tune is in "melodic or harmonic minor". they're scales. they're exercises. they're things that you could commonly hear and could to train your ears to their existence...but a tune is NOT in harmonic minor or melodic minor. it is just minor (or modal).
if TamLin is one of the pieces you want to apply it to, i know there are lots of versions out there. the one i have plays almost all C naturals...and only a couple of times hits the C#. but i've seen other versions with crazy accidentals too. i am trying to learn it as well actually, and the thing i find more useful than doing scales is mastering that feeling of rocking back and forth on the G and D strings in that first part. the scales are almost too much. and if you're only doing the scales from D to D and not extending it to the lowest notes on the G string (which is where you'll be playing for this tune) there isn't much point.
bsed - Posted - 01/03/2011: 17:26:38
Please help me (and sorry I'm being so persistent and obstreperous and obtuse and all that stuff)...
But of what practical value is this?... if it is, as you said, only used for scales:
A Melodic Minor - A B C D E F# G# A ....then descending A G F E D C B A
It sounds like it's just scales for the sake of scales. So a tune, a melody would never result from such a scale. It couldn't. How would you know which (or what) rule to apply?
When I teach beginning fiddle students, I teach them that a 'key' is the rule that a tune is written in, and a scale defines the rule.
Like in football (which I watched a lot of last weekend when I could've been fiddling):
You've got a rule book, and you've got an interpreter of that rule book (the referee).
And to me, all those have practical applications.
Edited by - bsed on 01/03/2011 17:38:39
cheekee - Posted - 01/03/2011: 19:44:16
why do we do scales (and other technical exercises like arpeggios, thirds and other melodic exercises,articulation/phrasing patterns, double stops in sixths and thirds etc.)? bear with me...this is long enough to make ME gag. but...for all those years of my mom yelling at me to practice my scales, my this and my that...now that i'm teaching piano, guitar and wind instruments, here's why she was right (please don't tell her). yes...the screaming (hers) and the tears (mine) were justified.
in piano, its really important to develop hand muscles, dexterity and stamina...and prevent injury. for wind instruments, its about finger dexterity, articulation patterns and air support (the abdominal wall doesn't develop overnight). for guitar, finger dexterity, hand muscles and fluidity. you may be able to read the music and play a piece that is beyond you, but too much hard playing really can turn into a longterm injury.
i am not huge into playing every scale or excercise in the book now that i'm learning fiddle, i admit it. i've spent years doing scales and other exercises on other instruments. but...since i don't play scales and other exercises religiously, i have to be honest and say that my skill level will likely max out earlier than it would if i worked at the technical side a little more. i accept that i will never play like mark o'connor, calvin vollrath, liz caroll or natalie macmaster...or even come close...and i think i am okay with that. but if i had to think of why scales and technique are important to develop in beginning students...particularly children who's hands are still developing, this is why i would want to teach kids some solid technical skills:
finger dexterity
hand muscle development
bow control
bow hold/right arm development
intonation development
phrasing development
its easier to concentrate on specific skill development with scales and other excercises because they're simple. we know what they sound like. also, it can be easier to transfer skill sets from tune to tune. i am not extremely hyper about making my adult learners learn their scales. i want them to know what they are, and why they're important, but if they really don't want to do them, i'm not going to worry about it. they aren't coming for lessons to become virtuoso players at this stage of their lives. however, i do make kids learn this stuff because as a teacher, i know it is important for their physical and musical development, and honestly, kids just don't know who they're going to be and what they're capable of once they grow up. i feel like it is my job to give a kid the tools they need to develop to the best of their potential and desire. i don't want my beginner students to move onto another teacher at the next level, and have that teacher wonder what the heck i've been teaching because the child doesn't have any real building blocks to move on and they spend the next year backtracking.
but just to be absolutely clear, music teachers don't bombard students with scales and other exercises right from the get-go. they're built slowly over time in a way that reflects their playing level...and it helps students reach the next playing level. i was playing grade 8 sax before i worked on technique...not a piddly level...but man did i EVER have my work cut out for me. also, i was playing grade 4 piano before i had to start putting in any true effort into technical development.
no need to be a scale fanatic. but at a certain point, to get better, you just need them.
students playing fiddle don't really have to worry about more than 4 flats or 4 sharps (i'm being generous here) in a key signature. but a classical violin player would eventually need to know it all. and country/bluegrass players (if they want good paying jobs) kind of need to know it all too so they can play whatever key the singer wants. there are little tricks to making technique go smoother on every instrument including fiddle. i sure as heck don't know them all, but i know they exist.
i don't teach fiddle YET, but in another few years i might. i know that i'm going to be talking to a lot of other experienced teachers so i have some better ideas how to skill build at the beginner level...and at the intermediate level. i also want them to know enough that they are able to move into whatever style of music they want to play.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/04/2011: 00:36:54
To help intonation? Not sure how different flavors of scales using piano tuning would do any thing to help intonation? For piano players, the intonation is determined by the piano tuner. A rank beginner's intonation is exactly as good as Glenn Gould's on the same instrument.
The often referred minor not mentioned is probably the one most used for fiddle tunes - the Dorian - for A Dorian; A, B, C, D, E, F#, G and back to A.
Second would be Aeloian. The others really don't show up much, and if your rules allow for accidentals to occur, you just need the two.
The melodic minor is probably the most confusing, more in the classical world, and even then do composers really adhere to it dogmatically. Mostly they use the natural minor and then alter notes for harmonic context. This most often appears when they want a V (or V7) cadence back up to the I chord. They like the leading tone (and the tritone created from the V7) to lead back.
quote:
Like in football (which I watched a lot of last weekend when I could've been fiddling):
You've got a rule book, and you've got an interpreter of that rule book (the referee).
And to me, all those have practical applications.
But in music the only thing that counts is if you score, that is it sounds good. There is no cheating, no referee, no score not allowed because it didn't follow the rules. If it sounds good, you win, despite the rulebook or referee.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 01/04/2011 00:52:44
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/04/2011: 05:13:08
Playing scales on piano is different than some other instruments. When I had to play piano (and never really liked the instrument) and had to try to get good enough to keep up with piano freaks... I played the Hanon Piano exercises... whih takes about an hour to do... it runs through all the scales plus just a bunch of workout for the hands and fingers. The only way to be able to play. On guitar, which i feel I am much, much better at, can pick up most stuff just by hearing it on, and have played and been very comfortable with for almost 50 years now... I don't know one single scale on guitar... I mean, I could probably sit and poke a scale out if someone really wanted me too, but it isn't something I just know or have ever done. I know chords and inversions of chords (and I'm not aware or couldn't name inversions without thinking real hard... it's just playing chords where they sound good to me in certain situations)... basically, theoretically, I don't know much of what I'm doing on guitar... yet I am so much better than I ever got close to on piano, and I could whip off those scales pretty fast on that thing...so... I think it's different... different instruments, or different mindsets/types of music being played on the instruments.
On fiddle... I'm no expert. But so far I'm not much into scales... if I have trouble playing some passage of a tune, I practice my hands doing that thing, exploring which might be the best way for me to get it, practice that on its own a little... this is how I've played guitar.
Banjo I've never practiced, really... just struggled with getting the right hand how i want it... then it seems other stuff just falls into place automatically... at least that's where I'm at with it right now.
I think if you were big into Bluegrass scales might be more helpful, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the real point I was gonna make is that piano and guitar comparison in my own playing. You could put a piece of music in front of me today on piano and I could sight read the thing and easily play the notes, although my playing would never really get much better than the sight reading. You could put a piece of music in front of me holding a guitar, which I feel 100 times better, more comfortable with... and I'd be totally lost... I couldn't find one written note or chord on that guitar, and have no idea what notes I am playing.. just "finding" what sounds good to me on my fretboard... and that works there pretty good.
So... scales or no scales... I think it just all depends.
OTJunky - Posted - 01/04/2011: 06:07:09
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
...
So... scales or no scales... I think it just all depends.
It does indeed...
--OTJ
Edited by - OTJunky on 01/04/2011 06:08:04
OTJunky - Posted - 01/04/2011: 07:01:40
quote:
Originally posted by bsed
Please help me (and sorry I'm being so persistent and obstreperous and obtuse and all that stuff)...
But of what practical value is this?... if it is, as you said, only used for scales:
A Melodic Minor - A B C D E F# G# A ....then descending A G F E D C B A
It sounds like it's just scales for the sake of scales. So a tune, a melody would never result from such a scale. It couldn't. How would you know which (or what) rule to apply?
I think the only use of the harmonic and melodic minor scales is found in classical music composition. I guess you can decide for yourself whether or not this is a "practical" use.
quote:
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale
An important characteristic of the harmonic minor scale -in contrast to the natural minor - is its inclusion of two sets of chords whose inversions are structurally identical, and hence have ambiguous tonality. These are the Diminished seventh chord (found on the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th degrees) and the Augmented chord (found on the 3rd, 5th and 7th degrees).
The harmonic minor is also occasionally referred to as the Mohammedan scale[1] as its upper tetrachord corresponds to the Hijaz jins, commonly found in Middle Eastern music. The harmonic minor scale as a whole is described as Nahawand-Hijaz[2] in Arabic nomenclature, or as Bûselik Hicaz [3] in Turkish nomenclature.
The interval between the sixth and seventh degrees of this scale (in this case F and G#) is an augmented second. While some composers, notably Mozart, have used this interval to advantage in melodic composition, other composers, having felt it to be an awkward leap, particularly in vocal music, considered a whole step between these two scale degrees more conducive to smooth melody writing, so either the subtonic seventh was used or the sixth scale degree raised. Traditionally, music theorists have called these two options the ascending melodic minor scale (also known as heptatonia seconda) and descending melodic minor scale, the ascending being identical in its upper tetrachord to the major scale, and the descending being simply the natural minor:
I think that classical music composers always face a bit of a struggle when composing in minor keys.
When writing in a major key, the 7th note of the scale (b natural in the key of C) is called the "leading tone". It's called that because a common - and very effective - technique in classical composition is to write an ascending melodic line that hits the leading tone just before moving from the tonic chord into the dominant 7th chord.
This technique doesn't work in a minor key if you're constrained to use the natural minor (Aeolian Mode) scale. So the "natural" think to do is to bump up the seventh note of the scale by a half step. Once you've done this, you have the "harmonic minor" scale. It's called the "harmonic" minor scale because it's a great help in writing classical harmony.
But once you've bumped up the 7th note to regain the "leading tone" effect, you've got 1 and 1/2 steps between the sixth and the seventh tone and that can sound weird and - as noted above - can be hard to sing. So, you just bump up the 6th tone by a half step as well and your back to a scale with just whole steps and half steps.
Since you don't typically use the 7th scale tone on a descending melodic line to lead into the dominant 7th chord, then you don't need to do any of this silliness with the descending scale so you can just use the natural minor again for the.
There are quite a few "compromises" needed to get classical harmony sounding right. The "well tempered" scale is just one of them.
Anyhow, I'm sure classical violinists need to practice these scales. But I think they're not much needed in fiddling...
--OTJ
Edited by - OTJunky on 01/04/2011 07:03:40
cheekee - Posted - 01/04/2011: 07:39:52
bsed asked WHY people play scales etc if they're just exercises. i provided an answer that gave only a few reasons why we do scales on a variety of instruments. when i mentioned piano, intonation was NOT one of the reasons. to be specific "in piano, its really important to develop hand muscles, dexterity and stamina...and prevent injury". for example, i went through several years of NOT playing, and lost some major hand muscle. then, i went back to playing my old stuff, which i totally could to my amazement...and now i've been fighting chronic tendonitis in both thumbs for the last year. my list for the reasons we might have fiddle/violin students play scales and technical exercises is my own made up list because as i said, i'm not a fiddle or violin teacher...but i do know there is value in playing them. for me, i'm just guessing that those are some of the things a student could get out of that stuff.
as adults, we get to decide if we want to work at that stuff or not. and i agree...if you're an adult just wanting to fiddle...it probably doesn't matter if you ever learn the melodic scales. but this boring stuff does have a purpose whether we like it or not...and whether or not we choose to do it. i wish it didn't, but it does. it always, always does. i never cared for piano, and like peggy said ahead of me, i too can sit down with some sheet music and plunk it all out without much thought or feeling. but piano isn't my thing and never was. i did it. i learned it. it was for a purpose.
i like single melody line instruments where i can bend and control the sound. that's why i played sax. that's why i'm now learning fiddle. the exercises don't make you a better player, they just give you the TOOLS to be a better player. its up to the player to make use of those tools. when you have an instrument that really resonates with you, a person can reach an early advanced level without that scale/tech stuff...and while other people will think you're pretty darn great, you''ll know inside that even with some minimal stuff, you could probably take your playing up another notch. that's probably the point where i might start putting real effort into technique. until then, i'll likely rinky-dink around with it as i have been.
bsed - Posted - 01/04/2011: 17:52:53
I have read 2 or 3 (attempted) replies to the questions I raised, and I've gotta say Thanks! I think it helped. I'm like groundhogpeggy. Scales are not important to my own playing. I teach them, but I don't practice what I preach. But I teach them for the same reasons cheekee sited, as most of my students are rank beginners, and I really think they need to know what scales are good for. So thanks again!
cheekee - Posted - 01/04/2011: 20:51:26
when it comes to fiddle...right now...i probably do the extreme bare minimum when it comes to scales. but who knows...down the road when my playing improves and someone teaches me some exercises, i won't scoff at it...maybe i'll pay a little more attention to the different things i could personally do to improve my overall playing.
until then...this girl just wants to have fun :)
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 01/05/2011: 00:47:00
quote:
Originally posted by bsed
quote:
Originally posted by cheekee
See, this is why I suck at Music Theory. Allow me to elaborate with the following scene from a Bugs Bunny episode you probably missed:
Wait just a cottonpickin' minute there, whippersnapper!
If you got yerself a tune in "melodic minor" (now for clarification, I'm not talkin' about scales) how do you know whether to play a raised or lowered 6th or 7th? Hmm?
It sounds like it's just scales for the sake of scales. So a tune, a melody would never result from such a scale. It couldn't. How would you know which (or what) rule to apply?
This is a question I'm wrestling with too. All I know is that when I started using the harmonic minor scale, my
Minor Swing soling really came alive. That G# was what I had been missing. To me, it's because of the E7 (dominant chord), which has the G# in it. The melodic minor scale sounds just as good in the song for the same reason.
I wonder if it's really necessary to have the distinction of the new minor scales. The harmonic just has one note different and the melodic 2. And the terms "harmonic" and "melodic" don't make any sense to me. Neither scale, by itself, is anymore harmonic or melodic than the natural minor scale.
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/05/2011: 10:02:12
I started with piano lessons as a youngster, so still to this day, I see a keyboard for most of this music theory stuff. Absent a keyboard, I've found it helpful to sketch out white and black keys on a dry erase board. Then, mark notes and steps and scales, and such until I feel like it's sticking in my brain. Until next time I try to remember it. :-)
Even if you don't play the piano, make your own diagram and label the keys. Might be a good exercise for some folks. And, I think it's easier for visualizing 1/2 steps and whole steps. I found some examples Googling around for "piano keyboard image".
I've know some fiddlers who went out and got a couple of months of keyboard lessons as a baseline. Your mileage might vary, of course.
cheekee - Posted - 01/05/2011: 10:25:21
so agreed fiddlejammer! when i'm prepping a non-keyboard student for a theory exam, i teach them how to use a keyboard as a reference because the theory exams in canada provide a scrap paper with a keyboard on it so students can count out their intervals etc. a couple of quick/mini keyboard lessons can go a long way to developing strategies to figure out that theory puzzle.
fiddlebanjo...don't worry about WHY they're called harmonic and melodic. just tell yourself its a label and it is what it is. its one of those things that if you can remember what one of the scales is supposed to be, then you can reason out what the other scale is. some of my kids like to just remember harmonic has a raised 7th and melodic is that other one. other kids like to think that melodies have changing patterns, so the label melodic means that the scale is different going up than going down (and remember the rule).
DougD - Posted - 01/09/2011: 01:36:09
I also started with piano lessons, for about nine years. I think its handy for anyody to have a little keyboard, even a $10 one from the Dollar store. I have this little program on my computers, which is useful for determining keys of tunes, and "refeshing" one's memory on scales, chords and modes, but it can do other things too: vmpk.sourceforge.net/
Edited by - DougD on 01/09/2011 01:42:09
Sue B. - Posted - 02/19/2011: 09:26:19
And to further cloud a confusing topic, don't forget the various ways of noting blues scales. Also, listen to old recordings of fiddle players from many regions to hear "other" scales. Folks who say those players were playing out of tune have it wrong. They were playing what they'd heard or what they liked, which can include slight alterations from today's "standard" intervals. Especially the 3rds, 6ths, 7th and even 4th scale steps.
rafa - Posted - 02/19/2011: 17:42:21
Hey BJ, Good site, love it for tuning and beat to play by.
